Islamic training camps in U.S.

[MichaelWeston]

The entire response to this thread is so fucking typical from you 2. I am a die hard liberal who disagrees with you on one issue. Cops are not evil. So you melt down in here. So fucking petty. I asked 2 questions.

 

I work with muslims every single week. I dont have any close muslim friends so I came here to ask a question. I bumped into that story listed above on one of my crazy rightwingers pages and was like "Oh I have not heard that I wonder if others have. And I assume that this isnt true because I have not heard it." I was actually looking for a snopes article talking about how ridiculous the first article was. So I post it in here because I know that I will get at least some intelligent responses. Every muslim I have ever met has been kind to me. I have traveled the world and been in many places where there were many more muslims than any other religion. There is a very large muslim population in my city.

 

Your responses have been

1. some crazy shit about the US creating ISIS which is clearly tinfoil hat type stuff

2. The KKK can assemble so why not Islamic groups?

3. Christians killed people before.

 

Those are not responses to the actual question.

Isis is beheading people, Al Qaeda is knocking down buildings and Boko Haram is murdering college kids. All in the name of Islam. Does the Quran actually say that?  it seems to but like I said before I have met many muslims and I am still alive.

 

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

 

The second question was do these camps exist?

[|Elflocko|]

 
Is it written in the bible to kill abortion doctors? I get what your saying here though.

Of course it doesn't (though it does have a plethora of vile instructions) but nor does the Koran command the killing of unbelievers (though it has quite a few things that make me go WTF).

I've read the Koran and many of the Hadith. Have you? :mellow:

[T-Dub]

You know what. The French killed a bunch of Americans in the French and Indian war. Let's get on that.

 

If the French had cross-burning "klaven" cells flyering people's cars at night I bet we would.  Dafuk? 

 

 

 

[MichaelWeston]

Of course it doesn't (though it does have a plethora of vile instructions) but nor does the Koran command the killing of unbelievers (though it has quite a few things that make me go WTF).

I've read the Koran and many of the Hadith. Have you? :mellow:

No that's why I asked the question. When I don't know things I ask people who I think might. Can you explain those verses I pulled out?

[|Elflocko|]

No that's why I asked the question. When I don't know things I ask people who I think might. Can you explain those verses I pulled out?

I spent the better part of a decade wrenching myself from the shackles of religious indoctrination by studying every 'sacred' text I could get my hands on. I have no tolerance for sloth and lack of ambition. Do your own research and become part of the solution instead of a cog in the greater problem.

[MichaelWeston]

What a strange response. I wonder what would have happened if khat had the same attitude when you asked him for help with your diet.

[|Elflocko|]

What a strange response. I wonder what would have happened if khat had the same attitude when you asked him for help with your diet.

Not strange, as I'm not notoriously willfully recalcitrant. Do you not have a Mosque in Columbus? Put your lazy ass in your car, drive there, and ask your questions...

[MichaelWeston]

Not strange, as I'm not notoriously willfully recalcitrant. Do you not have a Mosque in Columbus? Put your lazy ass in your car, drive there, and ask your questions...

I'm about as lazy as the roadrunner. I am asking questions. thats enough for me. I prefer efficiency. There is nothing like calling someone willfully uncooperative while being willfully uncooperative.

[|Numbers|]

You know what. The French killed a bunch of Americans in the French and Indian war. Let's get on that.

Yeah. I agree. Let's fuck those French fuckers up. They IMHO are one of the root causes of the issues in the Levant. See Charles DeGaulle memoirs for further reference. In all seriousness, can we go after those intolerant British next ? ...

[Khatmandude]

First, Islam teaches "Let there be no compulsion in religion", so that's your starting point.  Here are a few links to help with some of your questions about out of context verses you posted which were probably from a hate site (those misleading translations give them away).  If you were resourceful enough to find the verses quoted out of context, with zero historical background, you should be able to find very easily sites that debunk those claims.  Yet you haven't.  From observing you in this section in the past, you come off as VERY insincere but I'll play along in case you actually are trying to learn something.  

 

Also, asking on a website where you have 1 Muslim, in a forum setting where answers will take days to acquire as opposed to driving 15 mins to the mosque and getting questions answered by tens of people is not efficient as you claim.  It's actually very inefficient.  Anyways, here are the links:

 

http://www.aboutjihad.com/terrorism/quran_misquote_part_1.php

 

https://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

 

And then, if you're truly interested in learning about Islam, as you should be, as it is a part of all of our lives now, with what's going on in the world...then read about the life of the Prophet Muhammad, may God's peace and blessings be upon him.  Study the sunnah (his words/saying, behavior/actions, basically his life chronicled) and see how he lived, which is how Muslims are taught to live, or at least strive to live that way.  This sunnah can be found in the Hadith, as Elflocko has mentioned previous.  Many strict requirements for things to make it into Hadith to ensure accuracy.  

 

Study the political climate and the overall climate in Arabia of the time to gain historical perspective.  This is critical when studying Quran as many verses were revealed specifically for certain situations that were occurring at the time, to certain peoples and only applies to them.  

 

This is going to require some effort on your part, if you're truly interested in learning.  

[|kennethmw|]

First, Islam teaches "Let there be no compulsion in religion", so that's your starting point.  Here are a few links to help with some of your questions about out of context verses you posted which were probably from a hate site (those misleading translations give them away).  If you were resourceful enough to find the verses quoted out of context, with zero historical background, you should be able to find very easily sites that debunk those claims.  Yet you haven't.  From observing you in this section in the past, you come off as VERY insincere but I'll play along in case you actually are trying to learn something.  

 

Also, asking on a website where you have 1 Muslim, in a forum setting where answers will take days to acquire as opposed to driving 15 mins to the mosque and getting questions answered by tens of people is not efficient as you claim.  It's actually very inefficient.  Anyways, here are the links:

 

http://www.aboutjihad.com/terrorism/quran_misquote_part_1.php

 

https://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

 

And then, if you're truly interested in learning about Islam, as you should be, as it is a part of all of our lives now, with what's going on in the world...then read about the life of the Prophet Muhammad, may God's peace and blessings be upon him.  Study the sunnah (his words/saying, behavior/actions, basically his life chronicled) and see how he lived, which is how Muslims are taught to live, or at least strive to live that way.  This sunnah can be found in the Hadith, as Elflocko has mentioned previous.  Many strict requirements for things to make it into Hadith to ensure accuracy.  

 

Study the political climate and the overall climate in Arabia of the time to gain historical perspective.  This is critical when studying Quran as many verses were revealed specifically for certain situations that were occurring at the time, to certain peoples and only applies to them.  

 

This is going to require some effort on your part, if you're truly interested in learning.  

 

Well done, Khat, Well done! :41: :41:

[MichaelWeston]

First, Islam teaches "Let there be no compulsion in religion", so that's your starting point.  Here are a few links to help with some of your questions about out of context verses you posted which were probably from a hate site (those misleading translations give them away).  If you were resourceful enough to find the verses quoted out of context, with zero historical background, you should be able to find very easily sites that debunk those claims.  Yet you haven't.  From observing you in this section in the past, you come off as VERY insincere but I'll play along in case you actually are trying to learn something.  

 

Also, asking on a website where you have 1 Muslim, in a forum setting where answers will take days to acquire as opposed to driving 15 mins to the mosque and getting questions answered by tens of people is not efficient as you claim.  It's actually very inefficient.  Anyways, here are the links:

 

http://www.aboutjihad.com/terrorism/quran_misquote_part_1.php

 

https://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

 

And then, if you're truly interested in learning about Islam, as you should be, as it is a part of all of our lives now, with what's going on in the world...then read about the life of the Prophet Muhammad, may God's peace and blessings be upon him.  Study the sunnah (his words/saying, behavior/actions, basically his life chronicled) and see how he lived, which is how Muslims are taught to live, or at least strive to live that way.  This sunnah can be found in the Hadith, as Elflocko has mentioned previous.  Many strict requirements for things to make it into Hadith to ensure accuracy.  

 

Study the political climate and the overall climate in Arabia of the time to gain historical perspective.  This is critical when studying Quran as many verses were revealed specifically for certain situations that were occurring at the time, to certain peoples and only applies to them.  

 

This is going to require some effort on your part, if you're truly interested in learning.  

 

Great response other than a few unnecessary chides in there. To be perfectly honest religion isn't for me. I was just curious about the response to that small segment of things and you answered it with respect and very thoroughly to an extent. I thought we had more Muslims and would have just pmed you if I thought you were the only one. I google searched it but couldn't find a source that I felt was credible.

[ColdWarrior]

The only place I've seen this story is in the conservitive blogosphere, I'd need to see something from a fair source to know much more about it.

There is no fair source. Even back in the 1800's newspapers were owned by political hacks. All you can do is learn about issues from various points of view and come to your own conclusions. The most disturbing trend is multiple news outlets flagrantly ignoring issues to keep topics under the radar and out of the mainstream American awareness. Or to cover them only when they are past the point of real political impact.

[ColdWarrior]

As a Christian, I'm fully aware that there are tremendous differences in interpretation of the Bible and the principles of Christian living among various denominations.

What frightens me a bit is when some Muslims cannot acknowledge huge variations in Muslim belief even to the extent that one "denomination" espouses jihad while others claim to be the true religion of peace. It is exponentially more frightening when that lack of recognition is manifested in monstrous conspiracy theories to explain away the atrocious, murderous behavior of their brethren.

[Jamie_B]

There is no fair source. Even back in the 1800's newspapers were owned by political hacks. All you can do is learn about issues from various points of view and come to your own conclusions. The most disturbing trend is multiple news outlets flagrantly ignoring issues to keep topics under the radar and out of the mainstream American awareness. Or to cover them only when they are past the point of real political impact.

I will ask you the same thing I asked weston. Do you think that it's likely that this is happening and that our government doesn't know about it further not done anything about it?

[ColdWarrior]

I have no doubt that every manner of foreign and domestic militant group conducts training in the US at secluded locations. These probably range from crackpot doomsday preppers to groups funded by foreign governments or organizations. Our federal and local law enforcement agencies do a bang-up job keeping track of these miscreants with the assistance of an appropriately wary citizenry.

Once a group is "called out" in an article like the one cited in the OP, then I'm doubly sure they are monitored (and perhaps even infiltrated) by law enforcement personnel.

[Jamie_B]

I very seriously doubt FoxNews beat the government to the punch on this

 

But then I very seriously doubt this is what FoxNews says it is, after all if there really were militant Muslim training camps in the US, FoxNews (and only conservative outlets so far) would not be the only one reporting it.

[ColdWarrior]

I agree with point 1; the wary citizenry I mentioned tells law enforcement first about suspected militant activity.

On point 2, the major (ie. NonFox) networks are so full of intellectual liberals that they are unlikely to diligently investigate alleged Muslim activity. It would be highly politically incorrect to take such claims seriously. It would actually take a brave reporter.

The picture in my avatar occurred during my tour in Berlin. I was there for one of the early Muslim-sponsored attacks against US soldiers when they were out in a nightclub which was known to be popular with our troops. It was also when the world started to realize how good NSA was at intercepting communications, especially near Field Station Berlin on Teufelsberg.

[T-Dub]

Can someone kindly explain to me what an "Islamic Training Camp" is?

Do you mean a mosque?


Or do you mean a militia/terrorist training camp? If so, you should really be more specific. And then explain to me why they only concern you if they're Islamic, because even though it's illegal to conduct private military training in this country it's yet another law that is selectively enforced. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of these going on from whatever Blackwater is calling themselves these days to the Minutemen assholes on the border to tax resistance groups and down to your local "tactical" outlet run by some fake-ass wannabe SpecOps mall ninja.


Or if those questions are too difficult you can just go on spreading fear and propaganda like a good little sockpuppet. No law against that.

[Jamie_B]

I agree with point 1; the wary citizenry I mentioned tells law enforcement first about suspected militant activity.

On point 2, the major (ie. NonFox) networks are so full of intellectual liberals that they are unlikely to diligently investigate alleged Muslim activity. It would be highly politically incorrect to take such claims seriously. It would actually take a brave reporter.

The picture in my avatar occurred during my tour in Berlin. I was there for one of the early Muslim-sponsored attacks against US soldiers when they were out in a nightclub which was known to be popular with our troops. It was also when the world started to realize how good NSA was at intercepting communications, especially near Field Station Berlin on Teufelsberg.

Nonsense. The news networks love sensationalist stories and if there is truth to them they are running with it.

[Jamie_B]

I'm just gonna put this here.

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/05/our_founding_fathers_included_islam/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[ColdWarrior]

I'm just gonna put this here.
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/05/our_founding_fathers_included_islam/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Great, thoughtful, balanced article! Jefferson probably put more thought into how to balance freedom of religion and needs of government than any founding father - or at least he wrote more on the topic.

Christians get much of the blame for religious narrow-mindedness, yet the predominant Muslim culture prohibitions against homosexual conduct (much less marriage!) are far less tolerant than the most backward snake-handling Christian fundamentalists.

Jefferson would be perplexed. It is extraordinarily difficult for a pluralistic society to decide upon laws which attempt to respect highly divergent moral outlooks. (Note that I omitted the word religion entirely from the previous sentence.)

[Khatmandude]

Kill all the Muslims!  They won't stop until we're all forced to convert.  There's 2 billion of them....I bet they're just 'waiting' to attack us all because they hate us for our freedoms!  Why aren't these 2 billion attacking us like their religion tells them to do?  Why did that Muslim doctor take care of my child when he was supposed to eat all the babies?  Probably a clever trick being played by these crazy Moozlums. 

 

Everybody....be afraid!  They're holding terror camps in your local mall and kindergarten basement.   The extremely objective Pamela Gellar said so, so it must be true.  I'm so scared, you should be too!

[ColdWarrior]

Sure, make everyone who recognizes the actual, limited threat a caricature. We're all sock-puppet idiots except you.

Some of my doctors (customers) are devout Muslims and I learn a lot from them. Their dedication during Ramadan blows away my little Lenten observances before Easter.

They, however, recognize that a warped version of Islam exists in the world.

[Khatmandude]

Nobody's denying that a warped version of Islam exists in the world, just as nobody is denying a warped version of pretty much anything exists in the world.  

 

But I still haven't found any "Islamic training" sites you've been blabbering about, but I did find this:  

 

Former 3rd District Congressional Candidate Admits Plotting Armed Militia Attack, Firebombing Of Muslim Community In New York Robert Doggart's Plans Included Burning Down A School, A Mosque And A Cafeteria, According To Federal Court Documents

Saturday, May 16, 2015 - by Judy Frank

Robert R. Doggart

A 63-year-old Signal Mountain resident and former Third District Congressional candidate charged with plotting the annihilation of a Muslim village in New York has entered into a plea agreement acknowledging his guilt.

Robert Rankin Doggart, of 183 Fern Mist Trail, Signal Mountain, is on federal bond awaiting sentencing in the case, which has drawn widespread attention in Upstate New York where the targeted community is located. He faces up to five years in federal prison.

The plea will be to a one-count bill of information charging him with interstate communication of threats. His attorneys are Bryan Hoss and Janie Parks Varnell.

Doggart was first ordered detained, however, Federal Magistrate Susan Lee later allowed his release on certain conditions after attorneys said he had weaned himself from pain medication and had stopped abusing alcohol. The government opposed his release, saying he remains a danger.

According to a criminal complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Chattanooga , much of the evidence against Robert R. Doggart was obtained by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents from numerous wiretap interceptions of the defendant’s cell phone calls authorized on March 15 by Federal Judge Sandy Mattice.

 

In addition to the phone calls during March and April, He also posted threats against the Upstate New York town on Facebook, according to an affidavit by FBI Special Agent James G. Smith.

 

Doggart “spoke on the phone with an individual in South Carolina as recently as April 9, 2015, regarding a plan to burn a mosque” in Islamberg, a small Muslim community near Hancock, NY, the affidavit reported.

 

Earlier, during a St. Patrick’s Day call, the former candidate for Congress “explicitly (said) the plan included burning down a school, a mosque and a cafeteria,” the complaint noted.

 

“In a call intercepted on March 17 pursuant to the wiretap, Doggart told a female, ‘When we meet in this state, the people we seek will know who we are. We will be cruel to them. And we will burn down their buildings (and) if anyone attempts to, uh, harm us in any way, our stand gunner will take them down from 350 yards away.”

 

“The standoff gunner would be me,” Doggart continued, according to the agent’s complaint.

 

As the conversation continued, the complaint went on, “We’re gonna be carrying an M4 with 500 rounds of ammunition, light armor piercing. A pistol with three extra magazines, and a machete. And if it gets down to the machete, we will cut them to shreds.”

 

He did not anticipate much trouble reaching the target community and carrying out the group’s plans,” the complaint says he told the woman.

 

“I actually think we can get in and out of there without getting caught,” he reportedly told her. “There’s only four policemen in town. The fire department is a volunteer department, so it’ll take them 35 minutes to get there while that building will be burned down already. And we’ll be long gone by then.”

 

In 2014, Doggart ran as an Independent candidate in the race for 4th Congressional District of Tennessee. He was defeated by incumbent Republican Scott DesJarlais in the general election on Nov. 4, 2014. According to his campaign announcement, he is an ordained minister in the Christian National (Congregational) Church and a former TVA employee.

Here is the Doggart plea agreement in Chattanooga Federal Court:

In or about February, 2015, agents with the Federal Bureau of Investigation became aware that the defendant was communicating threats concerning an area located outside of Hancock, New York, and the individuals that lived in a community there. This area is known as "Islamberg," a self-named community consisting primarily of individuals of the Islamic faith. Specifically, in a Facebook posting in February 2015, the defendant wrote that "Target 3 [Islamberg] is vulnerable from many approaches and must be utterly destroyed ... " The defendant spoke with numerous other individuals (in person and over his cellular telephone) regarding his plan to attack Islamberg. The defendant justified his attack on lslamberg by claiming that the residents of Islam berg were planning a terrorist attack. The defendant stated on cellular phone communications that he planned to bum three buildings at Islamberg: a mosque, a school, and a cafeteria. The defendant was fully aware of the religious character of the mosque when he identified it as one of the buildings that needed to be burned. Additionally, the defendant suggested on a cellular telephone call that he and his group would kill some residents of Islam berg in order to carry out the plan.

On or about March 6, 2015, the defendant used a cellular phone to call a cooperating source ("CS") with the FBI. At the time of the call, the defendant was located in Sequatchie County, Tennessee (which is within the Eastern District of Tennessee). The CS was located in El Paso, Texas at the time of the call. The defendant made clear his ultimate plan was to injure or kill the inhabitants of Islamberg in Hancock, New York. During the phone call, the defendant told the CS, "those guys [have] to be killed. Their buildings need to be burnt down. If we can get in there and do that not losing a man, even the better." In the same recorded call, the defendant informed the CS that they could not carry pistols from Tennessee to New York because New York does not have carry permit reciprocity, but they could bring their "AR-15s, M-4s or M-16s." The defendant, in the recorded call, informed the CS that he planned to bring his M-4 rifle with four magazines. The defendant then told the CS he could provide the CS with the "meanest shotgun on Earth."

When discussing the schedule for the operation, the defendant told the CS that "the drop dead date is April 15 because that's when those guys in OAF say they're gonna start a civil war." OAF is a militia organization with which the defendant had been in contact. The defendant took numerous steps in furtherance of the threats that he communicated, many of which were discovered by the FBI through its use of wiretap issued pursuant to Title III, and other investigative techniques.

At various points during the investigation, the defendant traveled to other locations to meet with individuals the defendant believed would assist him with his plan. The defendant traveled to Nashville, Tennessee, on March 17, 2015, and met with the CS. At that time, the defendant showed to the CS a map of Islamberg. On that map the defendant identified the buildings he intended to destroy. Also, the defendant carried firearms with him to Nashville, including an M-4 type weapon as well as a shotgun. Furthermore, the defendant traveled to Greenville, South Carolina, in order to meet with another individual the defendant believed was interested in assisting him. Even though this individual and the defendant did not meet, the defendant spoke with this individual on his celluar telephone and discussed the burning of the buildings, including the mosque, and other topics. These calls were intercepted pursuant to the Court's authorized wiretap interception. In other intercepted phone calls, the defendant stated that his "M-4" was "battle tested" at 350 meters, that he would serve as the stand-off gunner during the assault, and that he would shoot the residents of Islamberg during the attack. The defendant also solicited the help of other "gunners" via Facebook. The investigation of the defendant's threatening communications required significant resources and time by the FBI in both Tennessee and South Carolina.

 

 

 

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2015/5/16/300568/Former-3rd-District-Congressional.aspx