Report: Bengals turned down trade with Cards

[scharm]

Miami taking Phillips one pick earlier simply ended any remaining debate.

 

 

Remaining debate?  In a predetermined plan?

 

 

See the facts in the situation destroy your conspiracy theory you can't avoid the holes in your logic.  

[|schotzee|]

Did the Bengals give an explanation why they turned the trade down?

[SnickyCat]

The Cardinals also had Humphries rated as the top OT on their board......

per G.M. Steve Keim:
We feel like if he came back for his senior year, he could potentially even be a top five pick, said general manager Steve Keim. We did think he was the most athletic tackle in the draft.

http://lindyssports.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/column/cardinals-tried-to-trade-up-for-dupree/308855

.....so even though they missed out on Dupree, the fact that they took an OT at #24 means absolutely nothing to the arguement. Humphries was always gonna be their OT pick, not Ogbuehi.

[HairOnFire]

 

Remaining debate?  In a predetermined plan?

 

 

See the facts in the situation destroy your conspiracy theory you can't avoid the holes in your logic.  

 

Three layer bean dip.

 

Mock anything that can't be proven absolutely.

 

Defend your own positions with smoke and stuff you just made up. 

 

Then brag about destroying sand castles.

[scharm]

 

Three layer bean dip.

 

Mock anything that can't be proven absolutely.

 

Defend your own positions with smoke and stuff you just made up. 

 

Then brag about destroying sand castles.

 

How can there be remaining debate in a predetermined plan that was approved well in advance of the draft?

 

Please explain. 

[SnickyCat]

And the Detroit trade back with Denver was already set to go the day before the draft.....

Adam Schefter Verified account ‏@AdamSchefter

Detroit-Denver deal. Trade was in place on Wednesday. Denver looking to upgrade D.
7:30 PM - 30 Apr 2015

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/593965758474035200

[HairOnFire]

.....so even though they missed out on Dupree, the fact that they took an OT at #24 means absolutely nothing to the arguement. Humphries was always gonna be their OT pick, not Ogbuehi.

 

Of course.

 

Bengals admitted Ogbuehi was a luxury pick very few teams could even consider due to the fact that he's a....busted toy.

 

It's how they knew with certainty Ogbuehi would there at #21....and explains why it's silly to think he wouldn't still be there at #24.

 

Saying Ogbuehi would have been a Top#5 had he not been injured completely misses the point.

 

He was injured and it did impact his value.

 

Most importantly, he would have been there at #24

 

And #25 too.

[HairOnFire]

And the Detroit trade back with Denver was already set to go the day before the draft.....

 

Of course.

 

Detroit shouted it's desire to trade down from the highest rooftop for weeks.

 

Also, Schefters blurb further confirms Denver's target was defense.  

 

Ogbuehi would have been there at #24.

 

Destroy, destroy, destroy!

[alleycat]

Not to complicate matters but...

 

Last night Lap said the Bengals had a top 5 grade on Randy Gregory before factoring in his issues.  If that's true...

 

Well, then...I have to say I'm disappointed. If they indeed had a top grade on him, I personally would have pulled the trigger. The kind of speed rush and agility is PRECISELY the thing this team needed to get the pass rush back on track. Huge character risk to be sure, but IMO now's the time we need to take the big risk. We can obviously afford it if doesn't work out, as we already took a guy who has some risk and may not see the field this season.

And now the refusal to take the trade down irks me even more lol. News reports were everywhere before the draft that Ray would fall to the bottom of the first and Randy would fall out entirely. Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight and so can take hypothetical risks that the team can't do in the moment, but the difference between Cedric O's pick and Randy Gregory's was 500 points on the draft trade chart - or the equivalent value of the number 40 overall pick - which just happens to be where DGB went. So from a value perspective, what that basically means is that we could have drafted, in value terms:

40) DGB
53) Fisher
60) Gregory

And then finished off our draft as it went.  

Again, I realize that this exact trade wouldn't have been possible, but that gives an idea of the possible home runS we passed up (at that 500 pts could have gone toward a pick next year with whatever team we traded down with).

Ouch.

 

(Obviously, the rest of the NFL past up on Gregory until #60, but I feel like this revelation lends still a little more fuel to the fire that they were quite focused on taking two Tackles; it's one thing to pass on a top 5 character risk for one tackle, but for two??? I dunno...)

[alleycat]

And then we'd have an open slot to bring in La'el Collins for the greatest (risk-reward) draft in history.

 

Championship!

[bengaled]

Not to complicate matters but...

 

Last night Lap said the Bengals had a top 5 grade on Randy Gregory before factoring in his issues.  If that's true...

 

Well, then...I have to say I'm disappointed. If they indeed had a top grade on him, I personally would have pulled the trigger. The kind of speed rush and agility is PRECISELY the thing this team needed to get the pass rush back on track. Huge character risk to be sure, but IMO now's the time we need to take the big risk. We can obviously afford it if doesn't work out, as we already took a guy who has some risk and may not see the field this season.

And now the refusal to take the trade down irks me even more lol. News reports were everywhere before the draft that Ray would fall to the bottom of the first and Randy would fall out entirely. Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight and so can take hypothetical risks that the team can't do in the moment, but the difference between Cedric O's pick and Randy Gregory's was 500 points on the draft trade chart - or the equivalent value of the number 40 overall pick - which just happens to be where DGB went. So from a value perspective, what that basically means is that we could have drafted, in value terms:

40) DGB
53) Fisher
60) Gregory

And then finished off our draft as it went.  

Again, I realize that this exact trade wouldn't have been possible, but that gives an idea of the possible home runS we passed up (at that 500 pts could have gone toward a pick next year with whatever team we traded down with).

Ouch.

 

(Obviously, the rest of the NFL past up on Gregory until #60, but I feel like this revelation lends still a little more fuel to the fire that they were quite focused on taking two Tackles; it's one thing to pass on a top 5 character risk for one tackle, but for two??? I dunno...)

 

 

i can't argue with anything you said here. i'm left feeling like we didn't take full advantage of a situation that was obvious in it's availability. if ogbuehi doesn't turn into a perennial all pro, we'll have even more evidence that paul alexander's opinion should take on a lesser value in future drafts.

[Randle P McMurphy]

 

 

I've seen nothing saying they are in discussions with either Jones or Sanu. ... And dont give me that "I have a source" nonsense, your "source" said AJ would play the playoff game.

 

LOL!  :)  I haven't seen/heard/read anything about Jones or Sanu getting extensions either. 

 

No need to extend either one of those 2 at the moment.  Maybe if Jones has like 40 catches

and 8 TD's going into the bye week.  Sanu may have a hard time fighting off Alford for the

"slot" position if Alford shows he can hang onto the ball during preseason! 

[sparky151]

 

 

i can't argue with anything you said here. i'm left feeling like we didn't take full advantage of a situation that was obvious in it's availability. if ogbuehi doesn't turn into a perennial all pro, we'll have even more evidence that paul alexander's opinion should take on a lesser value in future drafts.

 

Paul Alexander long ago established that he's a terrible judge of talent. He's the guy who vouched for Ghiaciuc and Cook as starters, called Stacey Andrews the best RT in the NFL, and played Nate Livings ahead of Evan Mathis for a couple of years. That's with guys on the roster he saw every day and not counting his evaluation of college players like Tuten or Kieft. 

[MichaelWeston]

What the hell would the Bengals have done with 2 more draft picks?  They would have likely either been cut or at best added to the practice squad.

Or they use them to trade up to get better players.

[Big Alice]

 
Paul Alexander long ago established that he's a terrible judge of talent. He's the guy who vouched for Ghiaciuc and Cook as starters, called Stacey Andrews the best RT in the NFL, and played Nate Livings ahead of Evan Mathis for a couple of years. That's with guys on the roster he saw every day and not counting his evaluation of college players like Tuten or Kieft. 

Eric Ghiacuc was awful. The problem is there was no better option on he roster. You're right. I still don't understand what Paul Alexander saw in him.

After that, though, you're kinda pissing in the wind.

If Kyle Cook hadn't gotten hurt, he'd STILL be the Bengals center. He was a good ballplayer. If you're making a case against Paul Alexander, you probably don't want to start with a UDFA that he developed into a legitimate starter.

Steroid Evan Mathis is not the same guy that played for the Bengals. Adam Kieft was a 5th round pick that got hurt in camp. Melvin Tuten? That was 20 years ago. And from he conversations on this board you'd think the guy was a first round pick. I have news for you, in the pantheon of bad Bengals draft picks in the 90's, Melvin Tuten is nowhere near the top of the list.

In the last 15 years, the Bengals are just about perfect on their offensive line selections in the first 3 rounds. On top of that, guys like Boling and Anthony Collins have been selected late and developed into quality pros.

10 years ago, it was cool to pile on to Paul Alexander. These days it's kind of tough not pat him on the back. The tide started to turn for him when the Bengals got filleted for taking Levi Jones over Phillip Buchanon. Guess what. They knew what they were doing.

[scharm]

 

Paul Alexander long ago established that he's a terrible judge of talent. He's the guy who vouched for Ghiaciuc and Cook as starters, called Stacey Andrews the best RT in the NFL, and played Nate Livings ahead of Evan Mathis for a couple of years. That's with guys on the roster he saw every day and not counting his evaluation of college players like Tuten or Kieft. 

 

BS.   I'm sure Marvin Lewis and Tobin do all this work grading and evaluating prospects but just say fuck it when it comes to the o-line and let Paul do whatever the hell he wants whenever he wants.   That's just poor logic.

 

What would be your opinion of a line coach that saw multiple first round and a second pick bust in a span of 5 years?

 

Dave Remington, Brian Blados, and Freddie Childress.   Freddie never made it out of training camp.    That guy would suck, right?   Well McNally was the coach at that time and he's considered among the best line coaches in history of the league.

 

 

The Bengals practice of having assistant coaches participate and express opinions in the college scouting process does not mean they run the draft board nor does it give the personnel staff a free pass on just o-line picks.  

[|kennethmw|]

Eric Ghiacuc was awful. The problem is there was no better option on he roster. You're right. I still don't understand what Paul Alexander saw in him.

After that, though, you're kinda pissing in the wind.

If Kyle Cook hadn't gotten hurt, he'd STILL be the Bengals center. He was a good ballplayer. If you're making a case against Paul Alexander, you probably don't want to start with a UDFA that he developed into a legitimate starter.

Steroid Evan Mathis is not the same guy that played for the Bengals. Adam Kieft was a 5th round pick that got hurt in camp. Melvin Tuten? That was 20 years ago. And from he conversations on this board you'd think the guy was a first round pick. I have news for you, in the pantheon of bad Bengals draft picks in the 90's, Melvin Tuten is nowhere near the top of the list.

In the last 15 years, the Bengals are just about perfect on their offensive line selections in the first 3 rounds. On top of that, guys like Boling and Anthony Collins have been selected late and developed into quality pros.

10 years ago, it was cool to pile on to Paul Alexander. These days it's kind of tough not pat him on the back. The tide started to turn for him when the Bengals got filleted for taking Levi Jones over Phillip Buchanon. Guess what. They knew what they were doing.

 

 

 

BS.   I'm sure Marvin Lewis and Tobin do all this work grading and evaluating prospects but just say fuck it when it comes to the o-line and let Paul do whatever the hell he wants whenever he wants.   That's just poor logic.

 

What would be your opinion of a line coach that saw multiple first round and a second pick bust in a span of 5 years?

 

Dave Remington, Brian Blados, and Freddie Childress.   Freddie never made it out of training camp.    That guy would suck, right?   Well McNally was the coach at that time and he's considered among the best line coaches in history of the league.

 

 

The Bengals practice of having assistant coaches participate and express opinions in the college scouting process does not mean they run the draft board nor does it give the personnel staff a free pass on just o-line picks.  

 

Well said to both of you. :41:

[ThurmanMunster]

 

 

I've seen nothing saying they are in discussions with either Jones or Sanu. ... And dont give me that "I have a source" nonsense, your "source" said AJ would play the playoff game.

 

Didn't say they were signing any day now. There are prelim talks with a lot of the younger guys to get a ballpark of where everyone's asking price is.

[Jamie_B]

 

Didn't say they were signing any day now. There are prelim talks with a lot of the younger guys to get a ballpark of where everyone's asking price is.

 

For AJ I believe that because that's been reported for the other two mot so much

[sparky151]

Eric Ghiacuc was awful. The problem is there was no better option on he roster. You're right. I still don't understand what Paul Alexander saw in him.

After that, though, you're kinda pissing in the wind.

If Kyle Cook hadn't gotten hurt, he'd STILL be the Bengals center. He was a good ballplayer. If you're making a case against Paul Alexander, you probably don't want to start with a UDFA that he developed into a legitimate starter.

Steroid Evan Mathis is not the same guy that played for the Bengals. Adam Kieft was a 5th round pick that got hurt in camp. Melvin Tuten? That was 20 years ago. And from he conversations on this board you'd think the guy was a first round pick. I have news for you, in the pantheon of bad Bengals draft picks in the 90's, Melvin Tuten is nowhere near the top of the list.

In the last 15 years, the Bengals are just about perfect on their offensive line selections in the first 3 rounds. On top of that, guys like Boling and Anthony Collins have been selected late and developed into quality pros.

10 years ago, it was cool to pile on to Paul Alexander. These days it's kind of tough not pat him on the back. The tide started to turn for him when the Bengals got filleted for taking Levi Jones over Phillip Buchanon. Guess what. They knew what they were doing.

 

Cook looked good by comparison with Ghiaciuc. On his own merit he was always outmanned by the NTs of the AFCN. If you consider him a success you'd have to consider Luigs a miss. Luigs was drafted to be Ghiaciuc's replacement but lost the competition with Cook. 

 

Mathis was a better player than Livings both when both were Bengals and afterwards. Alexander is about the only guy who thinks Livings was better. Kieft was a 5th round pick who busted. That happens but Alexander touted him highly. Agreed Tuten wasn't the worst pick of the decade but he was still a big underachiever for his draft position. 

 

 Boling and Collins were 4th round picks who were developed. It's not unusual for a team to get a starting guard or center in the middle of a draft. Collins and Stacey Andrews were tackles who were developed. But Collins couldn't hold a starting job when it was given to him and Andrews was never the best RT in the league as Alexander called him. 

[sparky151]

 

BS.   I'm sure Marvin Lewis and Tobin do all this work grading and evaluating prospects but just say fuck it when it comes to the o-line and let Paul do whatever the hell he wants whenever he wants.   That's just poor logic.

 

What would be your opinion of a line coach that saw multiple first round and a second pick bust in a span of 5 years?

 

Dave Remington, Brian Blados, and Freddie Childress.   Freddie never made it out of training camp.    That guy would suck, right?   Well McNally was the coach at that time and he's considered among the best line coaches in history of the league.

 

 

The Bengals practice of having assistant coaches participate and express opinions in the college scouting process does not mean they run the draft board nor does it give the personnel staff a free pass on just o-line picks.  

 

McNally also turned late round guys like Reimers, Kozerski, and Montoya into very solid players who became long time starters. Where are the comparable players from Alexander?

[scharm]

 

McNally also turned late round guys like Reimers, Kozerski, and Montoya into very solid players who became long time starters. Where are the comparable players from Alexander?

 

BS again.

 

You act like McNally walked in and told them "forget about early round line picks", I can get what you need from later rounds"   The majority of his finds came out of necessity from the before mentioned high round draft pick misses.    Also it wasn't like he got 1 pick to do it.    Keep in mind he was awarded with Munoz right out of the box. 

 

In your attempt to slam Alexander you have forgotten to include multiple mid-round O-line picks that flopped through McNally's time with the Bengals

 

Koz - Came about from Remington bust.  They traded a good center in Bush to make room for Remington.

Riemers - Came about because Lap went to the USFL and continued because Childress busted hard

Walters - Came about because Blados flopped and continued because of Childress busted hard

 

 

McNally had some great find but he cycled through a lot of prospects and he also had snaps to give.  It's a myth to paint his coaching time with the Bengals as if he afforded them the luxury to not draft offensive line high.  They did and a lot of them flopped. 

 

Alexander has had a lot of guys play very good to get second contracts and be apart of playoff teams and highly ranked offensive lines. 

 

 

Edit:  Cook and Braham are the same level players as Koz, Riemers, Walters.    When Montoya left and Munoz went down those lines sunk big time.

[sparky151]

 

BS again.

 

You act like McNally walked in and told them "forget about early round line picks", I can get what you need from later rounds"   The majority of his finds came out of necessity from the before mentioned high round draft pick misses.    Also it wasn't like he got 1 pick to do it.    Keep in mind he was awarded with Munoz right out of the box. 

 

In your attempt to slam Alexander you have forgotten to include multiple mid-round O-line picks that flopped through McNally's time with the Bengals

 

Koz - Came about from Remington bust.  They traded a good center in Bush to make room for Remington.

Riemers - Came about because Lap went to the USFL and continued because Childress busted hard

Walters - Came about because Blados flopped and continued because of Childress busted hard

 

 

McNally had some great find but he cycled through a lot of prospects and he also had snaps to give.  It's a myth to paint his coaching time with the Bengals as if he afforded them the luxury to not draft offensive line high.  They did and a lot of them flopped. 

 

Alexander has had a lot of guys play very good to get second contracts and be apart of playoff teams and highly ranked offensive lines. 

 

 

Edit:  Cook and Braham are the same level players as Koz, Riemers, Walters.    When Montoya left and Munoz went down those lines sunk big time.

 

I'm not denying McNally had some flops. He also benefited from having a Hall of Fame LT who didn't need assistance from other blockers. Still that doesn't change the fact that he found useful players in later rounds and let the best players play. PA insisted on playing Livings over Mathis. I'll grant you Braham was a solid player but he was also a fairly high draft pick (of another team) when we got him off the waiver wire. Cook was never at Braham's level.

[scharm]

 

I'm not denying McNally had some flops. He also benefited from having a Hall of Fame LT who didn't need assistance from other blockers. Still that doesn't change the fact that he found useful players in later rounds and let the best players play. PA insisted on playing Livings over Mathis. I'll grant you Braham was a solid player but he was also a fairly high draft pick (of another team) when we got him off the waiver wire. Cook was never at Braham's level.

 

didn't say Cook was Braham's level.  I said he was at Koz's level.   lol, at spliting hairs among serviceable NFL centers over spanning 20+ years.

 

You may not be denying McNally had flops but you sure as hell weren't remembering them when grinding your axe with Alexander above.

 

 

Your talking about Melvin Tuten and like in 1989 they took tackles in 2nd and 4th round.  Childress who didn't even make the team an Rob Woods whoever that was.   Come on.

 

You want to talk about Luigis,  hey let's talk about Paul Jetton.     The tone you present suggest that McNally got 1 late round pick and hit gold everytime or something.   The year he found Walters, they draft 3  late round tackles that year.

 

If you used the same standard you use to bash Alexander you would conclude McNally sucked.   McNally is known as one of the greatest. 

 

.  

[B.A.B.]

Kyle Cook was a shit football player. Didn't even get a sniff after he was cut