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Police the Police


oldschooler

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If you haven't been a part of enforcing the law, then you have no fucking clue what an officer faces on a daily basis.
Life and death decisions occur in "2 seconds", whether you want to believe it or not.

Fact: there are racist cops, racist criminals, and racist assholes in every walk of life.

Fact: there is a MAJOR problem that black people are so afraid of getting shot because they are black, that they have no trust in the police. There is a reason for it too... Prejudice and racism are STILL rampant. There is also a major problem that too many black kids are TAUGHT to run if a cop comes their way, as it invites getting fucked with from a cop.

Look at the video the woman posted from the incident in Texas last week.... She said the white kids didn't run, but the black kids did.

The point is that there needs to be change on BOTH sides... The racist fucks need to be rooted out and black kids need to stop running... And they REALLY need to stop killing their own. Black on black crime is far worse, and more kids are killed than the cops would be capable of killing.

Fact: cops are usually outgunned (meaning the criminal usually has a more powerful weapon, or more armed persons around the cop... Especially in the highest crime areas)

Fact: you can be trained almost to death in anything, but training itself doesn't over ride the "fight or flight" reflex

Fact: there is an obvious problem somewhere in the police forces of Amercia.... For cops of ALL races. Too many killings of black, white, yellow, and ALL colors of skin when there is no just provocation.

I don't have the answer, but lowering the readiness of cops isn't it.... Nor is the "gun control" that everyone is screaming for. Unless you take ALL weapons away except those carried by police and the military, it won't work. The proof of that is Chicago, New York, DC. .... Etc.

As it stands now, criminals STILL won't obey new gun control laws... No matter how "good" they are. Having been mugged twice and also having my home invaded, there is no way in hell ANYONE is going to take my weapons away from me voluntarily. I do have my CCW, but am highly trained in using my weapons, and practice safe use and train on a regular basis.

I don't own military style automatic weapons either, and no one but the military and police special weapons team should.

Biggest fact of all... ALL LIVES MATTER... ALL OF THEM.
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If you haven't been a part of enforcing the law, then you have no fucking clue what an officer faces on a daily basis.
Life and death decisions occur in "2 seconds", whether you want to believe it or not.

Fact: there are racist cops, racist criminals, and racist assholes in every walk of life.

Fact: there is a MAJOR problem that black people are so afraid of getting shot because they are black, that they have no trust in the police. There is a reason for it too... Prejudice and racism are STILL rampant. There is also a major problem that too many black kids are TAUGHT to run if a cop comes their way, as it invites getting fucked with from a cop.

Look at the video the woman posted from the incident in Texas last week.... She said the white kids didn't run, but the black kids did.

The point is that there needs to be change on BOTH sides... The racist fucks need to be rooted out and black kids need to stop running... And they REALLY need to stop killing their own. Black on black crime is far worse, and more kids are killed than the cops would be capable of killing.

Fact: cops are usually outgunned (meaning the criminal usually has a more powerful weapon, or more armed persons around the cop... Especially in the highest crime areas)

Fact: you can be trained almost to death in anything, but training itself doesn't over ride the "fight or flight" reflex

Fact: there is an obvious problem somewhere in the police forces of Amercia.... For cops of ALL races. Too many killings of black, white, yellow, and ALL colors of skin when there is no just provocation.

I don't have the answer, but lowering the readiness of cops isn't it.... Nor is the "gun control" that everyone is screaming for. Unless you take ALL weapons away except those carried by police and the military, it won't work. The proof of that is Chicago, New York, DC. .... Etc.

As it stands now, criminals STILL won't obey new gun control laws... No matter how "good" they are. Having been mugged twice and also having my home invaded, there is no way in hell ANYONE is going to take my weapons away from me voluntarily. I do have my CCW, but am highly trained in using my weapons, and practice safe use and train on a regular basis.

I don't own military style automatic weapons either, and no one but the military and police special weapons team should.

Biggest fact of all... ALL LIVES MATTER... ALL OF THEM.


This is the best post in this whole thread.
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The point is that there needs to be change on BOTH sides... The racist fucks need to be rooted out and black kids need to stop running... And they REALLY need to stop killing their own. Black on black crime is far worse, and more kids are killed than the cops would be capable of killing

 

 

I agreed with a lot of what you said but I feel like this needs pointed out - this is a gross oversimplification.  You really think white kids don't run from the police? If what you mean is that black kids in general are more often taught to fear the police, you'd probably be right, and if you're even passing familiar with American history you can probably think of a couple of reasons why.

 

However I reject the premise here, which is that running from the police gives them the right to shoot you. 

 

I also find the "black on black crime is much worse" excuse tiresome and a little ignorant.  Almost all serial killers and mass murderers are white males but for some reason this fact is never offered as justification for discriminating against white males or to suggest that crimes against white males are somehow less offensive, since white people shoot up movie theaters all the time and nobody cares etc etc.  Likewise, the fact that black criminals sometimes target other members of their own race is not relevant to police misconduct, or much anything else.

 

The sanctimonious hand-wringing over the "plight of the Black community" is just a cleverly subtle way of implying that black Americans deserve to be treated like criminals or are somehow otherwise complicit in their own victimization by police.  Followed, predictably, by the "Blame BOTH sides" stuff, like Tamir Rice and countless others were equally to blame for doing something that a white person can do without a second thought, just as much at fault as the overzealous cop that killed him.  Sorry, no.

 

Your whole argument comes apart here IMO.

 

Also this:

 

 

As it stands now, criminals STILL won't obey new gun control laws... No matter how "good" they are.

 

Frankly, this is ridiculous, yet I hear it constantly.  OF COURSE criminal's don't obey laws - that's the definition of criminal.

 

Is your suggestion that, since some people disobey laws, we shouldn't have any?

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I agreed with a lot of what you said but I feel like this needs pointed out - this is a gross oversimplification.  You really think white kids don't run from the police? If what you mean is that black kids in general are more often taught to fear the police, you'd probably be right, and if you're even passing familiar with American history you can probably think of a couple of reasons why.

 

However I reject the premise here, which is that running from the police gives them the right to shoot you. 

 

I also find the "black on black crime is much worse" excuse tiresome and a little ignorant.  Almost all serial killers and mass murderers are white males but for some reason this fact is never offered as justification for discriminating against white males or to suggest that crimes against white males are somehow less offensive, since white people shoot up movie theaters all the time and nobody cares etc etc.  Likewise, the fact that black criminals sometimes target other members of their own race is not relevant to police misconduct, or much anything else.

 

The sanctimonious hand-wringing over the "plight of the Black community" is just a cleverly subtle way of implying that black Americans deserve to be treated like criminals or are somehow otherwise complicit in their own victimization by police.  Followed, predictably, by the "Blame BOTH sides" stuff, like Tamir Rice and countless others were equally to blame for doing something that a white person can do without a second thought, just as much at fault as the overzealous cop that killed him.  Sorry, no.

 

Your whole argument comes apart here IMO.

 

Also this:

 

 

Frankly, this is ridiculous, yet I hear it constantly.  OF COURSE criminal's don't obey laws - that's the definition of criminal.

 

Is your suggestion that, since some people disobey laws, we shouldn't have any?

 

Well said! :41: :41:

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[quote name="T-Dub" post="1455350" timestamp="1434542964"]
I agreed with a lot of what you said but I feel like this needs pointed out - this is a gross oversimplification.  You really think white kids don't run from the police? If what you mean is that black kids in general are more often taught to fear the police, you'd probably be right, and if you're even passing familiar with American history you can probably think of a couple of reasons why.
 
However I reject the premise here, which is that running from the police gives them the right to shoot you. [/quote]

First off... The reason I rarely post here in this forum because this dialogue would be much more simple to conduct face to face... That being said, it WAS a gross oversimplification. White kids do run from the police, but there IS a reason the black kids run, and it's fear of the police. Rightfully so in many cases and for the obvious reasons that we all SHOULD know exist.... And there was no premise to justify police having the right to shoot anyone. I'd appreciate it if you would ASK me if that's what I meant, instead of assuming that it was.
 


I also find the "black on black crime is much worse" excuse tiresome and a little ignorant.  Almost all serial killers and mass murderers are white males but for some reason this fact is never offered as justification for discriminating against white males or to suggest that crimes against white males are somehow less offensive, since white people shoot up movie theaters all the time and nobody cares etc etc.  Likewise, the fact that black criminals sometimes target other members of their own race is not relevant to police misconduct, or much anything else.


I didn't state, nor did I imply that black on black crime was relevant to police misconduct in any way, shape, or form. You put your own meaning to that one man. It IS, however, one of the worse things affecting the black community, and isn't tiresome or ignorant at all... It's a fact. Once again you assume...
 

The sanctimonious hand-wringing over the "plight of the Black community" is just a cleverly subtle way of implying that black Americans deserve to be treated like criminals or are somehow otherwise complicit in their own victimization by police.  Followed, predictably, by the "Blame BOTH sides" stuff, like Tamir Rice and countless others were equally to blame for doing something that a white person can do without a second thought, just as much at fault as the overzealous cop that killed him.  Sorry, no.
 
Your whole argument comes apart here IMO.


While YOU read your own definitions to what I posted,and impart your OWN prejudices to them, my intent was to only point out existing facts. The is no argument in my post, I am simply posting MY observations to what I have seen and experienced these last 51 years. There is PLENTY of blame to go to all sides, and if you don't see that then you are blind. There was no way in hell any rational person would assume that I meant or implied that the black community deserve to be treated like criminals or were complicit in their own victimization. That is what happens when you make posts on the Internet and immediately apply your own prejudices, judgements, and assumptions as to their meaning.

Prejudice, racism, and bigotry need to stop... On ALL sides period. The police especially need to weed out those who are too violent, racist.
 


Also this:
 

 
Frankly, this is ridiculous, yet I hear it constantly.  OF COURSE criminal's don't obey laws - that's the definition of criminal.
 
Is your suggestion that, since some people disobey laws, we shouldn't have any?



My suggestion was quite plain and simple as it was posted... If you take away the ability for the private citizen to defend themselves, you will see many more deaths of EVERY race because the criminals will have weapons... And the police will surely fire even more quickly than they do now.

[/quote]

Sigh... Like I said in the beginning of my responses, this dialogue would be much more simple, and less assumptions made, if I had the chance to speak face to face with you. I am a very direct and straightforward person, if I think it or believe it, I will quite simply say it. I totally suck at political correctness and have no agenda... With the exception that I want all people to be truly equal and treated as such. I don't stereotype, profile, or hate anyone at all. If you ask me my opinion, or ever want to know my real feelings, all you have to do is ask. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, and is one of the most dangerous things to practice.
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Sigh... Like I said in the beginning of my responses, this dialogue would be much more simple, and less assumptions made, if I had the chance to speak face to face with you. I am a very direct and straightforward person, if I think it or believe it, I will quite simply say it. I totally suck at political correctness and have no agenda... With the exception that I want all people to be truly equal and treated as such. I don't stereotype, profile, or hate anyone at all. If you ask me my opinion, or ever want to know my real feelings, all you have to do is ask. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, and is one of the most dangerous things to practice.

 

 

 

Sorry if that came off overly harsh, I do respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.  I don't think you yourself are any of those things you mentioned, to be clear. You're consistently one of the more even-keeled posters on here AFAIC (pun intended), myself very much included.

 

That being said, the issue of crime in poor black communities is so much more an issue of "poor" than "black" that I can't find much use for the "black-on-black crime" stuff, particularly when it seems to come up immediately any time there's a police shooting of an unarmed black man.  To put it another way, police accountability is a lot simpler to achieve than the elimination of all violent crime, so I become suspicious when I see someone try to conflate the two. 

 

 

As for the gun control laws stuff - I've said before that passing more laws doesn't help because we don't have the will to enforce them.  Attempts to do so end in violence too often and I don't think we, collectively, have the stomach for it.  We saw David Koresh, a guy that was basically the head of some incestuous sex cult, turn into a sympathetic figure because his daughter-wives thought he was going to drive a buried schoolbus to heaven - instead their house burnt down around them.  We've got openly-traitorous militias stockpiling weapons, but if we try to disarm them it reinforces this paranoia about the government coming to take everyone's guns.  Well, if someone thinks the President is a fuckin' space alien and so on, maybe it's in the interest of public safety for them to lose their arsenal.

 

Taken together, yeah, it does seem strange - here's a situation where a police response served up via battering ram makes sense and we're happy to argue about the Constitution while the Bundy Ranch shit goes down on TV, then we'll turn around and defend the police when they shoot some unarmed kid.  I have to ask how a sketchy-ass beardo can set up a sniper perch on camera & take aim at federal agents but this other kid can't run around in a park with a BB gun.

 

No, I don't have a simple answer, either.

 

Anyway, I tried to be specific about what I took exception to in your post, so again my apologies if it seemed at all personal as that was not my intent.

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It's all good T-Dub, that's why I didn't go into a name calling rant... I am not about all that.

You hit the nail on the head with the problem starting with poor. There isn't room or the time to go into the socioeconomic beat down that the black community continually is forced to live with. The only real improvements will come when they are no longer forced to "stay in there place". The rare exceptions that succeed are always used as shining examples by our political system to say that there isn't a race and economic inequality built into our system.

The police system HAS to be changed and the killings stopped. This is way past ridiculous. Unless the government wants a real civil war on their hands, shot needs to be done NOW. Justifying murders of unarmed citizens is a Nazi-like behavior.

Although being pro gun, I am not the far right. I agree that there has to be some sort of control and oversight. Just last night in Charleston... looks like a 21 year old white male killed at least 9 black people in a church. Obviously a hate crime and if the evidence is there (which it seems to be) the kid needs to be executed immediately.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UVM1fFhQws4

 

I think this discussion is so very important and I'm glad to see it happening here. I know it gets contentions and emotions flair, but I strongly believe this is a momentous time in our history. I think these events and the repercussions will be talked about for a very long time to come. Nothing can ever heal until it is brought into the light of day.

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I think this discussion is so very important and I'm glad to see it happening here. I know it gets contentions and emotions flair, but I strongly believe this is a momentous time in our history. I think these events and the repercussions will be talked about for a very long time to come. Nothing can ever heal until it is brought into the light of day.

 

Agreed, and in that spirit I think it's a good thing that this Louisville Police Union President spoke his mind too. A lot of people won't like what he had to say and it might cost him his position, but it's what a lot of cops are feeling. It's very blunt, and I'm sure most of you won't like it. They are getting it from all sides these days, some of it deserved but most of it isn't IMO. It has to be frustrating.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lz7879nm1urdm2s/Press%20Release-River%20City%20FOP%20Lodge%20614%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0

 

Here's his press conference after the open letter was released, and some reaction from the mayor and police chief.

 

http://www.courier-journal.com/videos/news/local/2015/06/19/29000195/

 

http://www.wlky.com/news/fop-sends-letter-warning-anyone-who-tries-to-sensationalize-tragedy/33668380

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Agreed, and in that spirit I think it's a good thing that this Louisville Police Union President spoke his mind too. A lot of people won't like what he had to say and it might cost him his position, but it's what a lot of cops are feeling. It's very blunt, and I'm sure most of you won't like it. 

 

 

Er.. He threatened to abuse his power & target people who were critical of the LPD.  Anyone who honestly cares about our Bill of Rights won't like it.

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Can you quote the part where he did that? I don't see it.

 

 

Go back and re-read the last paragraph.  It's the usual line - people who disagree with us are dangerous and so on. "If your behavior causes harm to us" - criticizing the police? Publicizing police brutality? In other words "we're not responsible for our own actions - it's YOUR fault for reporting it!"  And of course the usual charge of "race baiting" for daring to talk about racism. 

 

IDK man because if I'm being honest, you seem to not do so well with nuance but there is absolutely an implied threat there and I think it's fucked up.  Imagine being a reporter about to expose a crooked cop in the LPD and reading that. If anyone should be transparent and open to the media it's the police.

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Go back and re-read the last paragraph.  It's the usual line - people who disagree with us are dangerous and so on. "If your behavior causes harm to us" - criticizing the police? Publicizing police brutality? In other words "we're not responsible for our own actions - it's YOUR fault for reporting it!"  And of course the usual charge of "race baiting" for daring to talk about racism. 

 

IDK man because if I'm being honest, you seem to not do so well with nuance but there is absolutely an implied threat there and I think it's fucked up.  Imagine being a reporter about to expose a crooked cop in the LPD and reading that. If anyone should be transparent and open to the media it's the police.

 

Nah, his point was the media should be fair and honest in their reporting and stop sensationalizing shit for ratings. His tone was definitely one of someone who's fed up and pissed off, but I don't see any implied threat, other than they aren't going to just keep their mouths shut and take it, they're going to stand up for themselves.

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Nah, his point was the media should be fair and honest in their reporting and stop sensationalizing shit for ratings. His tone was definitely one of someone who's fed up and pissed off, but I don't see any implied threat, other than they aren't going to just keep their mouths shut and take it, they're going to stand up for themselves.



You seem confused as to the role of our police (among other things). Determining what the media should and shouldn't say. That is not even remotely his responsibility and he has zero authority in that regard. What he's threatening to do is illegal and unconstitutional. He shouldn't be a cop.

You really think Officer Shitbreath here gets to decide what stories are "fair & balanced"?

(hello fox news slogan! fancy meeting you here! Funny in that you're neither of those things.. or, y'know, factual)

If you honestly believe that I suggest familiarizing yourself with our constitutional amendments beyond the 2nd.

" I'm not threatening you I'm just saying if you keep doing that thing I don't like that you have every right to do I will abuse my power to attack you. Not a threat though."

Really, guy?
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Where exactly is he threatening to do something Illegal and unconstitutional? Where does he he say he will abuse his power? Quote me the words.

 

Looks to me like he's just saying they aren't going to just keep their mouths shut when they are being falsely portrayed.

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Where exactly is he threatening to do something Illegal and unconstitutional? Where does he he say he will abuse his power? Quote me the words.

 

Looks to me like he's just saying they aren't going to just keep their mouths shut when they are being falsely portrayed.

 

 

Like I said, a problem understanding nuance.  Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse but either way I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you why threatening language is threatening.

 

I've given you clear examples and even given you a hypothetical scenario trying to provide a different viewpoint that might help you understand why a threat is, hey guess what, threatening.  

 

You don't have to agree with it, but if you're not capable of understanding it at all the failure there is certainly not mine.

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Like I said, a problem understanding nuance.  Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse but either way I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you why threatening language is threatening.

 

I've given you clear examples and even given you a hypothetical scenario trying to provide a different viewpoint that might help you understand why a threat is, hey guess what, threatening.  

 

You don't have to agree with it, but if you're not capable of understanding it at all the failure there is certainly not mine.

 

Cop out. Can't give me a quote that shows what you said is true.

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Cop out. Can't give me a quote that shows what you said is true.

 

 

:facepalm:

 

 

Dude if you can't understand the implied threat in that last paragraph you're either lying, English is not your first language, or you read at a 3rd-grade level.  Possibly some combination of those.

 

It's not my responsibility to make little airplane noises and spoonfeed you information just because you throw a tantrum.

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Again, you said: "What he's threatening to do is illegal and unconstitutional."

 

Quote me his words that are illegal and unconstitutional.

 

And how about you stop being a dick with things like this: "It's not my responsibility to make little airplane noises and spoonfeed you information just because you throw a tantrum."

 

It's possible to have discussions without resorting to such childish shit.

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The statement had a VERY aggressive tone, and early on he vaguely lumped critics in with criminals. 

 

The FOP's promise to their critics was pretty clear, and I'd summarize it like "shut up or we are going to fuck with you."

 

Did he explicitly say laws and civil rights would be thrown out in the pursuit of critics? Of course not, he's not stupid.  There's a reason the mayor and chief of police aren't thrilled about the statement.

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The statement had a VERY aggressive tone, and early on he vaguely lumped critics in with criminals. 

 

The FOP's promise to their critics was pretty clear, and I'd summarize it like "shut up or we are going to fuck with you."

 

Did he explicitly say laws and civil rights would be thrown out in the pursuit of critics? Of course not, he's not stupid.  There's a reason the mayor and chief of police aren't thrilled about the statement.

 

 

Blame that darned liberal media with their whole reporting on things that have happened agenda.

 

White racist guy shoots up a church and it's all over that librul media, but when a black guy has a minor accident in a church parking lot NOBODY CAAAARES etc etc

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