How far is too far in regards to the Confederate Flag ?

[Jamie_B]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/?hpid=z5

 

Perhaps most perniciously, neo-Confederates now claim that the South seceded over states’ rights. Yet when each state left the Union, its leaders made clear that they were seceding because they were for slavery and against states’ rights. In its “Declaration of the Causes Which Impel the State of Texas to Secede From the Federal Union,” for example, the secession convention of Texas listed the states that had offended the delegates: “Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa.” Governments there had exercised states’ rights by passing laws that interfered with the federal government’s attempts to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. Some no longer let slave owners “transit” across their territory with slaves. “States’ rights” were what Texas was seceding against. Texas also made clear what it was seceding for — white supremacy:

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

 

 

 

Also this...

 

Teaching or implying that the Confederate states seceded for states’ rights is not accurate history. It is white, Confederate-apologist history.

 

[HairOnFire]

I think the discussion about different groups appropriating 'things' for political use is an interesting one.

 

Being proud of your heritage is all well and good in most examples but southern pride is a poor excuse for flying a flag with the history of Confederate flag over a modern government building.

 

IMHO Obama got it exactly right when he said the flag belongs in a museum, and I'd feel that way even if hate groups in this country and around the world hadn't increasingly appropriated the flag for their own purposes.

[HairOnFire]

How the world loved the swastika - until Hitler stole it -  http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29644591

 

Only two nights ago I watched the movie Paleface, a 1922 silent film comedy starring Buster Keaton.

 

Buster spends roughly half the movie doing gags based upon him attempting to hide under an Indian blanket covered in swastikas.

[|SF2|]

 

Only two nights ago I watched the movie Paleface, a 1922 silent film comedy starring Buster Keaton.

 

Buster spends roughly half the movie doing gags based upon him attempting to hide under an Indian blanket covered in swastikas.

I actually own one of these.   Father in law's dad got it in the 20's.  Pretty common.

 

http://www.sageventure.com/coins/tokens/Prentice4rev.gif

[oldschooler]

Marion County Decides to Go Full Florida, Votes to Put The Confederate Flag Back Up

 

 

 

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2015/07/florida-votes-to-keep-racist-confederate-flag?utm_campaign=complexmag%2Bsocialflow%2B07%2B2015&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[MULLY]

In Japan the swastika is a buddhist symbol, hundreds of years before Hitler was even swinging in his daddy's ball sack. It's reversed from the Nazi swastika though.

MULLY

[T-Dub]

 

Being proud of your heritage is all well and good in most examples but southern pride is a poor excuse for flying a flag with the history of Confederate flag over a modern government building.

 

And honestly, as someone raised in the South, what heritage is it I'm supposed to be proud of? Slavery, segregation, intolerance, insurrection? Or is it having the lowest literacy rates and highest rates of infant mortality? Denying evolution? Wealthy TV evangelists? Comically ignorant legislation? Challenging the Pacific NW as a bastion of white power nationalism and meth? Honey BooBoo?

 

Other than the BBQ I don't have much to be waving a flag about.

[HairOnFire]

What heritage do they have to be proud of you ask?

 

Well how perfect is this timing?

 

The following was included in an e-mail I recieved today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 A Grandson of "THE OLD REBEL"~~Forrest's-Orphans Camp~ WHAT WOULD GENERAL FORREST DO? KEEP UP THE SKEER! To be copacetic; Join The Flaggers, Mech-Cav & GOA!
This war for destruction of our Southern heritage is definitely not a spectator-sport, YOU must join the battle!

II Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight. I have finished my course. I have kept the faith.

John 15:13
Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

"Duty is ours; consequences are God's."
~ General Thomas Jackson

I pledge Allegiance to the constitution and to the Republic for which it stands, a nation under God, with Liberty and Justice for all. FCW

"I am only one, but still, I am one. I cannot do everything but I can do something. And, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do what I can."
Edward Everett Hale [1822-1909]

To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish. Are you also ready to die for your country? Is your life worthy to be remembered along with theirs? Do you choose for yourself this greatness of soul?

Gen. William Sherman wrote to Gen. Grant that “Until we can repopulate Georgia, it is useless to occupy it, but the utter destruction of it’s roads, houses, and people will cripple their military resources.” Sherman had previously telegrammed Washington that “There is a class of people – men, women, and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order.” President Lincoln congratulated both Sheridan and Sherman for campaigns that sowed devastation far and wide.

For Southerners to “forget,” Northerners must: cease applying the raciest card to Southerners when Northerners are culpable; cease proclaiming their genetic superiority, when regional differences stem from economics; and, cease portraying Southerners with irrational disdain on TV, in movies and other media. Ken Kirk

After the Battle of Perryville in October of 1862, the Union Army occupied the Bluegrass Region of Central Kentucky, imposing martial law on all civilian communities; ever since the Commonwealth of Kentucky had been awarded the center star on the Confederate Battle Flag by President Jefferson Davis on December 10, 1861, the Union Army considered most civilians as disloyal citizens and pro-southern sympathizers. Peter Mullen

“Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom and then lost it, have never known it again.” Ronald Reagan, 40th President

[T-Dub]

^ WTF was that mess?  All I got was "Them golparned Yankees better quit making fun of us!"

[MichaelWeston]

What heritage do they have to be proud of you ask?

 

Well how perfect is this timing?

 

The following was included in an e-mail I recieved today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 A Grandson of "THE OLD REBEL"~~Forrest's-Orphans Camp~ WHAT WOULD GENERAL FORREST DO? KEEP UP THE SKEER! To be copacetic; Join The Flaggers, Mech-Cav & GOA!
This war for destruction of our Southern heritage is definitely not a spectator-sport, YOU must join the battle!

II Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight. I have finished my course. I have kept the faith.

John 15:13
Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

"Duty is ours; consequences are God's."
~ General Thomas Jackson

I pledge Allegiance to the constitution and to the Republic for which it stands, a nation under God, with Liberty and Justice for all. FCW

"I am only one, but still, I am one. I cannot do everything but I can do something. And, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do what I can."
Edward Everett Hale [1822-1909]

To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish. Are you also ready to die for your country? Is your life worthy to be remembered along with theirs? Do you choose for yourself this greatness of soul?

Gen. William Sherman wrote to Gen. Grant that “Until we can repopulate Georgia, it is useless to occupy it, but the utter destruction of it’s roads, houses, and people will cripple their military resources.” Sherman had previously telegrammed Washington that “There is a class of people – men, women, and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order.” President Lincoln congratulated both Sheridan and Sherman for campaigns that sowed devastation far and wide.

For Southerners to “forget,” Northerners must: cease applying the raciest card to Southerners when Northerners are culpable; cease proclaiming their genetic superiority, when regional differences stem from economics; and, cease portraying Southerners with irrational disdain on TV, in movies and other media. Ken Kirk

After the Battle of Perryville in October of 1862, the Union Army occupied the Bluegrass Region of Central Kentucky, imposing martial law on all civilian communities; ever since the Commonwealth of Kentucky had been awarded the center star on the Confederate Battle Flag by President Jefferson Davis on December 10, 1861, the Union Army considered most civilians as disloyal citizens and pro-southern sympathizers. Peter Mullen

“Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom and then lost it, have never known it again.” Ronald Reagan, 40th President

 

I don't celebrate treason. 

[HairOnFire]

^ WTF was that mess?  All I got was "Them golparned Yankees better quit making fun of us!"

 

I can't explain much of it, but at first blush it seems to have something to do with not canceling Duck Dynasty and something something Ronald Reagan.

 

And I'm pretty sure there was also a call to arms to die for a country that no longer exists.

 

That said, I was most troubled by the things I didn't understand well enough to even make fun of. (KEEP UP THE SKEER!)

[Jamie_B]

150 years late, but better late than never.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/us/south-carolina-confederate-battle-flag/index.html?sr=fb07915southcarolinaconfederatebattleflag149aStoryLink

[|SF2|]

 

I don't celebrate treason. 

Well then you must really hate the 4th of July since it was our TREASON toward the British Crown that created said United States.   Don't ever forget, the victors get to write the history of said victory. 

[HairOnFire]

That said, I was most troubled by the things I didn't understand well enough to even make fun of. (KEEP UP THE SKEER!)

 

Curiosity got the better of me so I google the above.

 

Actual quote from Confederate cocksucker Nathan Bedford Forrest should read....“Get ’em skeered and keep the skeer on ’em.”

 

So apparently it's hillbilly speak for....scared. 

[T-Dub]

 

Curiosity got the better of me so I google the above.

 

Actual quote from Confederate cocksucker Nathan Bedford Forrest should read....“Get ’em skeered and keep the skeer on ’em.”

 

So apparently it's hillbilly speak for....scared. 

 

 

 

Moral judgement and such aside, that dude was really good at terrorism.

[HairOnFire]

So I'm sitting there watching them take down the confederate flag in Charleston and I'm immediately struck by two images, neither mentioned by the talking heads covering the event..

 

First, the color guard removing the flag engaged in a ridiculous amount of pomp and ceremony removing a flag that that is seen as a symbol of hatred and treason by many.

 

Was it really appropriate to engage in one last act of reverence and respect even as we're acknowledging what that flag represented? 

 

Why not invite the protester back to repeat her climb and removal?

 

After returning to solid ground she could then hand the flag to some bearded guy from a local museum.

 

Second, was I really the only one who noticed the massive stone and concrete Memorial to Confederate Soldiers standing only a few feet away from the flag pole? 

 

As the debate raged the battle flag display was almost always depicted as if were a stand alone kinda thing, always excluding images of the even larger monument it decorates.

 

Am I to assume the larger object is somehow easier to ignore or in some way more appropriate to be displayed on public ground than the flag that came down?

[MaddChatter]

I don't care what you say, Ellie Mae Clampette was REAL !

[T-Dub]

I don't care what you say, Ellie Mae Clampette was REAL !

 

Oh she's real all right.  Also 80.

 

 

 

But let's remember the good times

 

[|Montana Bengal|]

Donna Douglas, aka Elly May Clampett, passes away at age 82

Read more: http://www.wsmv.com/story/27748304/donna-douglas-aka-elly-may-clampett-passes-away-at-age-82#ixzz3fndWGtxc

[|SF2|]

So I'm sitting there watching them take down the confederate flag in Charleston and I'm immediately struck by two images, neither mentioned by the talking heads covering the event..

 

First, the color guard removing the flag engaged in a ridiculous amount of pomp and ceremony removing a flag that that is seen as a symbol of hatred and treason by many.

 

Was it really appropriate to engage in one last act of reverence and respect even as we're acknowledging what that flag represented? 

 

Why not invite the protester back to repeat her climb and removal?

 

After returning to solid ground she could then hand the flag to some bearded guy from a local museum.

 

Second, was I really the only one who noticed the massive stone and concrete Memorial to Confederate Soldiers standing only a few feet away from the flag pole? 

 

As the debate raged the battle flag display was almost always depicted as if were a stand alone kinda thing, always excluding images of the even larger monument it decorates.

 

Am I to assume the larger object is somehow easier to ignore or in some way more appropriate to be displayed on public ground than the flag that came down?

So what is you plan?  Dig up all those who fought for the South and toss their bones into the ocean?   Should we head over to Germany and desecrate the graves of those who fought in WWII?

 

I suppose you think the Iraq and Vietnam wars were stupid wars as well?  Should we dig up those who died fighting for their country at the time and toss them into a land fill?   I mean obviously these men and women should have refused to serve when call to duty right?

 

You do realize that many of the men who fought in the Civil War were drafted into the service I assume.  There were very few provisions for Conscientious Objectors except for religious reasons and if you pretended to be one of the very few exceptions, you faced a firing squad.  Particularly, later in the war, the military police force in the South rounded up men to volunteer...at gun point.   Things were NOT that much different in the North.  Maybe you should google New York City draft riots if you want more information on the subject.  Now you feel it necessary to spit on the graves of men who really had little choice but to do the honorable thing and not bring disgrace to their families.  You are a class act. 

[|SF2|]

 

 

 

Moral judgement and such aside, that dude was really good at terrorism.

As was Sherman whose men raped, pillaged and burned everything in their site on their march to Savannah.  The best part of Sherman's march was how he treated the slaves they captured.  Those who swore allegiance to the North were "allowed" to enlist.   Those who refused were executed without a trial since Sherman didn't take black prisoners. 

[Jamie_B]

They both learned from Andrew Jackson

[HairOnFire]

So what is you plan?

 

Same as with the flag.

 

Allow those types of displays everywhere but government property.

 

Is that too difficult for your feverish brain to understand?

 

 

  Dig up all those who fought for the South and toss their bones into the ocean?   Should we head over to Germany and desecrate the graves of those who fought in WWII?

 

I said none of those things.

 

As always, your stupid thoughts are completely your own.

 

 

 

I suppose you think the Iraq and Vietnam wars were stupid wars as well?  Should we dig up those who died fighting for their country at the time and toss them into a land fill?   I mean obviously these men and women should have refused to serve when call to duty right?

 

Again, don't involve me in your stupidity.  

 

Soldiers who fought in Vietnam, Iraq, etc.....did not take up arms against the United States in support of slavery.

 

They fought for the country, not against it....something even you should be able to grasp.

 

Further, by prominently displaying objects meant to honor the Confederacy on statehouse grounds you continue to disenfranchise citizens who might still be slaves had the Conferacy won.  

 

So why is allowing Confederate memorials on state property so important to you?

 

Do you like the message it sends?

 

 

 

 

You do realize that many of the men who fought in the Civil War were drafted into the service I assume.  There were very few provisions for Conscientious Objectors except for religious reasons and if you pretended to be one of the very few exceptions, you faced a firing squad.  Particularly, later in the war, the military police force in the South rounded up men to volunteer...at gun point.   Things were NOT that much different in the North.  Maybe you should google New York City draft riots if you want more information on the subject.

 

Maybe you should sober up before posting.

 

Flag debate was rooted in how inappropriate it was to fly that flag on the statehouse lawn, yet the flag was the smaller of the two memorials.

 

Seems to me a memorial to an army that fought to overthrow the government doesn't belong on government property and would best be displayed elsewhere, which could be accomplished easily.

 

Yet you've responded by saying a bunch of meaningless stupid shit, as is your habit.

 

And presumably you'll now get mad, another one of your habits.

 

 

 

Now you feel it necessary to spit on the graves of men who really had little choice but to do the honorable thing and not bring disgrace to their families.   

 

Congrats.

 

Most people would need to write a much longer post to fit in all of the stupid things you worked into a few short paragraphs.

[Homer_Rice]

As was Sherman whose men raped, pillaged and burned everything in their site on their march to Savannah.  The best part of Sherman's march was how he treated the slaves they captured.  Those who swore allegiance to the North were "allowed" to enlist.   Those who refused were executed without a trial since Sherman didn't take black prisoners. 

Please support these claims with some sources. And keep in mind that some of us are aware of the Lieber Code, Ebenezer Creek, and Special Order 15.

[|Bunghole|]

Please support these claims with some sources. And keep in mind that some of us are aware of the Lieber Code, Ebenezer Creek, and Special Order 15.

Yeah, from a recent account I read, Sherman was actually pretty stout with his orders that his men NOT rape and pillage, unless you're talking about an army foraging and taking for itself what it needed as it marched unimpeded to it's destination. And Sherman was also noted for favorable treatment of blacks that provided invaluable intelligence to the presence of nearby Rebels in addition to absorbing them into his ranks, despite himself being a segregationalist, which is a product of the times.

 

Sherman was no fool, plus he had orders which he was known to adhere to to a "T".