Mother of Slain Soldier Protests outside

[Guest BlackJesus]

[img]http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.08.02.DemocracyinAct-X.gif[/img]

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='CP1' date='Aug 9 2005, 01:13 AM']sneaky, I was starting to like you also until that Michael Moore comment.  Even though he has done some good digging, he has his motives also which are not entirely pure.  He gets a big  in my book. 

BJ is great for a forum because he actually makes people think.  You HAVE to examine each and every possibility before coming to a conclusion IMO.  Even though I don't agree with a large portions of BJ's beleifs, especially religion, you certainly cannot automatically discount them.
[right][post="127210"][/post][/right][/quote]


First off I want to say I am deeply hurt and saddened now that you have decided not to like me. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//20.gif[/img]
As for as I'm concerned, I have read Micheal Moore's books, seen his one time tv show (The Awful Truth) and his movies. For the most part, I like his style and agree with most of his points that he attempts to make. Personally, If I don't agree with another person's political beliefs, or religion, or philosophy that doesn't mean I have to dislike them. As long as they are decent human beings who aren't harming anyone, why do I have to dislike them? I have some friends who are Republican and voted for Bush, and even though I disagree with their decision, that doesn't mean I don't have to l dislike them. Thats what I was trying to say.....it just seems to me that quite a few people who do support the war, who support Bush, have this mob mentality against any dissension. They have a "If you don't agree with us your a piece of shit" mentality. The truth is Micheal Moore is no more offensive to you than Rush Limbaugh is to me. They are political "shock jocks"...if you will. One is to the left the other is to the right, and both of them have gotten rich basically talking shit. Last time I checked this is a free country (for now), and I have the right to like Micheal Moore and you have the right to hate him. So, if you don't like me because of my beliefs......oh well.....sorry

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='sneaky' date='Aug 9 2005, 01:42 PM']First off I want to say I am deeply hurt and saddened now that you have decided not to like me. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//20.gif[/img]
As for as I'm concerned, I have read Micheal Moore's books, seen his one time tv show (The Awful Truth) and his movies. For the most part, I like his style and agree with most of his points that he attempts to make. Personally, If I don't agree with another person's political beliefs, or religion, or philosophy that doesn't mean I have to dislike them. As long as they are decent human beings who aren't harming anyone, why do I have to dislike them? I have some friends who are Republican and voted for Bush, and even though I disagree with their decision, that doesn't mean I don't have to l dislike them. Thats what I was trying to say.....it just seems to me that quite a few people who do support the war, who support Bush, have this mob mentality against any dissension. They have a "If you don't agree with us your a piece of shit" mentality. The truth is Micheal Moore is no more offensive to you than Rush Limbaugh is to me. They are political "shock jocks"...if you will. One is to the left the other is to the right, and both of them have gotten rich basically talking shit. Last time I checked this is a free country (for now), and I have the right to like Micheal Moore and you have the right to hate him. So, if you don't like me because of my beliefs......oh well.....sorry
[right][post="127395"][/post][/right][/quote]

I don't hate him sneaky, I just feel he has alterior motives for much of the work he does. And I don't dislike you either because you like him, just trying to get my point across, if I hurt your feelings, I truly am sorry [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

Onyx, just read www.bowlingfortruth.com

Mr. Moore is King of Creative editing.

[Guest bengalrick]

moore makes interesting and compelling stuff...

if he'd only stick to the truth...

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='CP1' date='Aug 9 2005, 12:41 PM']I don't hate him sneaky, I just feel he has alterior motives for much of the work he does.  And I don't dislike you either because you like him, just trying to get my point across, if I hurt your feelings, I truly am sorry  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//18.gif[/img]
[right][post="127407"][/post][/right][/quote]


Apology accepted. You are a cool dude

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 8 2005, 02:58 PM']Im missing something or not following you here, the buffolo interview was only one he got?? Marvin was nearly highered in Tampa. 
[right][post="126939"][/post][/right][/quote]


Ok....this is what happened.....I was wrong, Marvin did get an interview with Buffalo, but Tony Dungy's comments (the link I posted) apparently came before Tampa Bay fired him. After Dungy was fired, the Buccaneers interviewed both Gruden and Marvin Lewis. Tampa Bay ultimately decided to hire Gruden instead of Lewis. After thinking about my argument upon whether Lewis was a victim of racism or not. I came to these conclusions.

1. Even though he was passed over by various teams despite his credentials I cannot imply that Tampa Bay discriminated against him, because they did in fact hire Dungy. Even though I disagreed with their decision of firing Dungy, (because before he got there the Bucs were just as bad as the Bengals were) I could understand why. The Bucs won a Super Bowl, and Dungy landed on his feet at Indy. Everybody happy

2. Even though it is painfully obvious for logical thinking people that the reason Marvin Lewis had trouble landing a head coaching gig (before he came here) was because he was black. However, it cannot be clearly proven. Even if he was a victim of discrimination the teams that passed on him will never admit it. So that debate could last forever.

3. As messed up as this sounds.....it may have been a good thing that he was passed over even if he was a victim of racism. If not, he (Marvin Lewis) would have never have come here. And thank GOD he is here.

4. One way that could help qualified black coaches land interviews and potentially jobs, is for Marvin Lewis to have the ultimate success. If Marvin Lewis becomes the first black head coach to win the Super Bowl (with the Bengals ofcourse ). I'm sure that the opportunities given to qualified black coaches will dramatically increase. Its just messed up that it has to be like that though.

[Guest steggyD]

See, sneaky, you are only paranoid. Every white person is not really out to get the brown people. Relax. I'm sure there are some, but it goes both ways.

You cannot blame every lack of promotion on race. Think about how people will get promoted because of who they know, not what they know. This ruins the chances for someone who may have worked harder and has better talent, no matter what their skin color is.

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 9 2005, 12:54 PM']Mr. Moore is King of Creative editing.
[right][post="127414"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
He's only doing what news organizations have done for years.

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:42 PM']Unprovoked ?
[right][post="126421"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
I think he means the Iraq invasion. Which, yes, was unprovoked.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:42 PM']Bush lied ?
[right][post="126421"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Misrepresented is a better term. First, we went over there because of WMD. Then it was because of terrorism. Now, since there were no WMD, we went there to spread democracy.

All this stuff about creating an influx of new terrorists and forgetting about Osama bin Laden is just nonsense.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 03:17 PM']He's only doing what news organizations have done for years.
[right][post="127501"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


You can’t be serious? I've worked in news organizations and Ill grant you that most have a slant leaning, they don't intently manipulate the news. (or at least the local NBC here in DC doesn't) Moore knowingly manipulates things, and he has no editor, he is his own editor. I can tell you fist hand of a reporter I knew getting fired for going to the air with a story that wasn't approved by the editing, and management. There is a huge difference here.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 01:26 PM']I think he means the Iraq invasion. Which, yes, was unprovoked.[right][post="127507"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

SHooting at our pilots patrolling the NO FLAY ZONES
IS provoking. And if Saddam wasn`t doing anything (provoking)
then why the hell was Resolution 1441 made ? :roll:

Plus did you read the speech from the President that
I posted above ? That President giving the speech
was Bill Clinton in 1998 !
You don`t think those same words were amplified
4 years later and a full year after September 11th ?



[quote]Misrepresented is a better term. First, we went over there because of WMD. Then it was because of terrorism. Now, since there were no WMD, we went  there to spread democracy.

All this stuff about creating an influx of new terrorists and forgetting about Osama bin Laden is just nonsense.[/quote]


We went over there because Saddam kicked out the Weapons Inspectors.
And because we gave him a final last chance to comply...HE DIDN`T.
We aren`t creating anything...the people that hate us now hated us before.
Unlike you cynics...I prefer to think about the people that LIKE US
more because we are HELPING THEM.
And to say we "forgot" about bin Laden is asinine. It`s like saying when
we were fighting in the Pacific that we "forgot" about Hitler...

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:32 PM']You can’t be serious? I've worked in news organizations and Ill grant you that most have a slant leaning, they don't intently manipulate the news. (or at least the local NBC here in DC doesn't) Moore knowingly manipulates things, and he has no editor, he is his own editor. I can tell you fist hand of a reporter I knew getting fired for going to the air with a story that wasn't approved by the editing, and management. There is a huge difference here.
[right][post="127516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Cute story. I've worked for news organizations, too. And the work ethic of some reporters makes me wonder why folks even rely on local news.

I had a friend who used to run a BBS. He was contacted by a local news station to discuss, he thought, the burgeoning online culture (this was in the early 90s). He felt the interview went pretty well.

When the story went to air, he was portrayed as a saddo who ran a BBS that gave users access to porn.

As I said... Moore's not doing anything news organizations haven't already done.

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:32 PM']I can tell you fist hand of a reporter I knew getting fired for going to the air with a story that wasn't approved by the editing, and management. There is a huge difference here.
[right][post="127516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
That funny. Since when did an editor have any editorial decision? From my experience, it's the news director who says what goes and doesn't.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 05:21 PM']Cute story. I've worked for news organizations, too. And the work ethic of some reporters makes me wonder why folks even rely on local news.

I had a friend who used to run a BBS. He was contacted by a local news station to discuss, he thought, the burgeoning online culture (this was in the early 90s). He felt the interview went pretty well.

When the story went to air, he was portrayed as a saddo who ran a BBS that gave users access to porn.

As I said... Moore's not doing anything news organizations haven't already done.
That funny. Since when did an editor have any editorial decision? From my experience, it's the news director who says what goes and doesn't.
[right][post="127573"][/post][/right][/quote]


I meant news director, but you knew that.

And so your telling me its Ok for Moore to do this?

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']SHooting at our pilots patrolling the NO FLAY ZONES
IS provoking. And if Saddam wasn`t doing anything (provoking)
then why the hell was Resolution 1441 made ? :roll:
[right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
He wasn't attacking his neighbors. He wasn't developing weapons of mass destruction. He had a crumbling empire. The best he could do was take potshots at jets.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']Plus did you read the speech from the President that
I posted above ?  That President giving the speech
was Bill Clinton in 1998 ![right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Your ability to search the Internet is to be commended.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']And because we gave him a final last chance to comply...HE DIDN`T.[right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THEM. How the heck is he supposed to produce evidence he didn't have?

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']We aren`t creating anything...the people that hate us now hated us before.
[right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Not necessarily. Some of them didn't give a crap who we were. It wasn't until we started obliterating their families and their neighborhoods that they really developed a jones for us.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']Unlike you cynics...I prefer to think about the people that LIKE US
more because we are HELPING THEM.
[right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Oooh... I'm a cynic! Can't wait to tell mom.

You do realize that most of the anger and hatred towards the US has increased SINCE the Iraq invasion. The insurgency isn't just a few bad seeds.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 02:38 PM']And to say we "forgot" about bin Laden is asinine. It`s like saying when
we were fighting in the Pacific that we "forgot" about Hitler...
[right][post="127519"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
At least we knew where Hitler was.

And the major difference is... we didn't invade Australia after Japan attacked us.

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:27 PM']And so your telling me its Ok for Moore to do this? 
[right][post="127578"][/post][/right][/quote]
I never said that. I just said that what he does isn't different than how CNN, FOX and the rest operate.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 05:31 PM']I never said that. I just said that what he does isn't different than how CNN, FOX and the rest operate.
[right][post="127581"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


So, when they do do it, they should be held to the fire. I was mearly showing Onyx (who may or may not be familiar with it) that Moore isnt 100% on the up and up.

Same as Oriley, Rush, ect..ect..

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 03:30 PM']He wasn't attacking his neighbors. He wasn't developing weapons of mass destruction. He had a crumbling empire. The best he could do was take potshots at jets.[right][post="127580"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Saddam was like a person that is on parole.
You are EXPECTED to tow the line...keep your nose clean
do what you are told and make for damn sure you do what
is expected of you...Saddam`s defiance got his parole
revoked.
[quote]Your ability to search the Internet is to be commended.[/quote]

Thanks for noticing ....and completely ignoring the FACTS.

[quote]BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THEM. How the heck is he supposed to produce evidence he didn't have?[/quote]

Ummm how about abide by the terms of his surrender
and allow the Weapons Inspectors to do their fucking job ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/26.gif[/img]


[quote]Not necessarily. Some of them didn't give a crap who we were. It wasn't until we started obliterating their families and their neighborhoods that they really developed a jones for us.[/quote]

Yeah WE... read the papers and check out the TV some time.
The "freedom fighters" are the ones killing everybody...

[quote]Oooh... I'm a cynic! Can't wait to tell mom.[/quote]

Hurry back !
Tell her I said hi.

[quote]You do realize that most of the anger and hatred towards the US has increased SINCE the Iraq invasion. The insurgency isn't just a few bad seeds.[/quote]

Nu-huh ? Get the fuck outta here !

[quote]At least we knew where Hitler was.[/quote]

Yeah he was in Germany somewhere wasn`t he ?

[quote]And the major difference is... we didn't invade Australia after Japan attacked us.[/quote]


Well we would have if we had already had a war with them
and the asshole we ALLOWED to stay in power keep flipping
us off while our "buddies" padded his pockets.

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:30 PM']He wasn't attacking his neighbors. He wasn't developing weapons of mass destruction. He had a crumbling empire. The best he could do was take potshots at jets.
Your ability to search the Internet is to be commended.
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THEM. How the heck is he supposed to produce evidence he didn't have?
Not necessarily. Some of them didn't give a crap who we were. It wasn't until we started obliterating their families and their neighborhoods that they really developed a jones for us.
Oooh... I'm a cynic! Can't wait to tell mom.

You do realize that most of the anger and hatred towards the US has increased SINCE the Iraq invasion. The insurgency isn't just a few bad seeds.
At least we knew where Hitler was.

And the major difference is... we didn't invade Australia after Japan attacked us.
[right][post="127580"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] I like this Gonzoid dude he seems kind of cool.

[Guest oldschooler]

[img]http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/DDay/images/stantis.gif[/img]

[Guest Gonzoid]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:46 PM']Saddam`s defiance got his parole
revoked.
[right][post="127590"][/post][/right][/quote]

Do you actually believe the crap you say or does all your dialogue come from mid-70s Clint Eastwood movies?

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:46 PM']Ummm how about abide by the terms of his surrender
and allow the Weapons Inspectors to do their fucking job ?  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//26.gif[/img]
[right][post="127590"][/post][/right][/quote]
The inspectors were doing their fucking job. Bush had planned long ago on invading Iraq (or do you think the Downing Street Memo is another Monty Python skit).

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:46 PM']Yeah he was in Germany somewhere wasn`t he ?
Well we would have if we had already had a war with them
and the asshole we ALLOWED to stay in power keep flipping
us off while our "buddies" padded his pockets.
[right][post="127590"][/post][/right][/quote]
GHW Bush knew that to take Saddam out of power in '91 would've lead us right into the quagmire that Iraq is today. That's why Saddam wasn't taken out then.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Aug 9 2005, 04:02 PM']You can’t be serious? I've worked in news organizations and Ill grant you that most have a slant leaning, they don't intently manipulate the news. (or at least the local NBC here in DC doesn't) Moore knowingly manipulates things, and he has no editor, he is his own editor. I can tell you fist hand of a reporter I knew getting fired for going to the air with a story that wasn't approved by the editing, and management. There is a huge difference here.
[right][post="127516"][/post][/right][/quote]

Of course he got fired, his story probably didn't fall in line with the editors and management.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='Aug 9 2005, 06:16 PM']Saddam was like a person that is on parole.
You are EXPECTED to tow the line...keep your nose clean
do what you are told and make for damn sure you do what
is expected of you...Saddam`s defiance got his parole
revoked.
Thanks for noticing ....and completely ignoring the FACTS.
Ummm how about abide by the terms of his surrender
and allow the Weapons Inspectors to do their fucking job ?  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//26.gif[/img]
Yeah WE... read the papers and check out the TV some time.
The "freedom fighters" are the ones killing everybody...
Hurry back !
Tell her I said hi.
Nu-huh ? Get the fuck outta here !
Yeah he was in Germany somewhere wasn`t he ?
Well we would have if we had already had a war with them
and the asshole we ALLOWED to stay in power keep flipping
us off while our "buddies" padded his pockets.
[right][post="127590"][/post][/right][/quote]

You seem like a somewhat intelligent person, you just need to come out of your trance!

Parole? So now we ARE the world police. As for weapons inspectors, see what Scott Ritter and Hans Blix had to say about his WMD. Do you honestly beleive that Saddam was a threat to the US? He was happy with being wealthy and oppressing his people to keep the wealth, he had no plans of attacking us even though he hated us for doublecrossing him. If we are going to liberate all countries whose leaders oppress them, we've got a long list. We probably put them in place anyhow!

[Beaker]

[quote name='CP1' date='Aug 10 2005, 01:48 AM']you just need to come out of your trance!   

If we are going to liberate all countries whose leaders oppress them, we've got a long list.  We probably put them in place anyhow!
[right][post="127647"][/post][/right][/quote]

Everybody has their own version of a trance.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Gonzoid' date='Aug 9 2005, 07:26 PM']
Do you actually believe the crap you say or does all your dialogue come from mid-70s Clint Eastwood movies?[right][post="127638"][/post][/right][/quote]

It was called an Analogy.

analogy: NOUN: 1a. Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

[quote]The inspectors were doing their fucking job. Bush had planned long ago on invading Iraq (or do you think the Downing Street Memo is another Monty Python skit).[/quote]

[b]September 10th 2002
Commenting on the Iraq situation Tony Blair said:[/b]

"[b]The only way of avoiding conflict is that you have the weapons inspectors go back into Iraq and do their job properly. Now when they went into Iraq before they weren't allowed to do their job properly and in the end they were effectively expelled[/b]

_____________________________________________________________

[b]United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 is a resolution by the UN Security Council, passed unanimously on November 8, 2002, offering Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations[/b]" that had been set out in several previous resolutions (Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284), notably to provide "an accurate full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by Resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles". Resolution 1441 threatens "serious consequences" if these are not met. It reasserted demands that UN weapons inspectors should have "immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access" to sites of their choosing, in order to ascertain compliance.

Although Iraq was given until November 15 to accept the resolution, they agreed on November 13. [b]Weapons inspectors, absent from Iraq since December 1998[/b], returned later that month, led by Hans Blix of UNMOVIC and Mohamed ElBaradei of the IAEA.

In early December, 2002, Iraq filed a 12,000-page weapons declaration with the UN in order to meet requirements for this resolution. [b]The UN[/b] and the US said that this failed to account for all of Iraq's chemical and biological agents.


Oh and just because we made plans (Downing Street Memo)
doesn`t mean Saddam couldn`t have stopped it...


[quote]GHW Bush knew that to take Saddam out of power in '91 would've lead us right into the quagmire that Iraq is today. That's why Saddam wasn't taken out then.[/quote]


Actually in 1991...the U.N. said that it would only get involved if
we stopped at the Iraqi border. They just wanted to push Saddam
out of Kuwait....so enough with your conspiracy bullshit about
GHW Bush setting this up for his son. :roll: