alleycat Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Bengals lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. They gained it back in no time being aggressive. You don't have to be a Madden player to figure out Marvin putting the choke hold on the offense was a factor in the lost lead.All the smartass comments about Madden aren't going to cover up the fact Marvin's approach didn't protect the lead any better. Exactly, and this was the point I was trying to make on Gameday. Marvin is a defensive coach and he's still playing the game that existed 15 years ago. Problem is, the rules, and the athletes, and therefore the game, has changed. You can't just hope to have a dominant defense that will shut down air attacks -- even if you have a dominant defense. The rules are so receiver friendly that defenders have to play off and you get the Steve Smith TDs - never mind the fact that you are one PI away from giving up a 60 yard chunk. Today, the best Defense is to field a solid unit on that side of the ball, but also field an offense that will put up points. And if there's one common denominator among the perennial best teams in this league, it's that their offenses are high scoring. You can't have a high scoring offense if you decide that a 14 point lead in the 2nd qtr is enough and you're just going to hang on for dear life and run out the last 30 minutes of the clock. When we played our offensive game plan, we scored at will. When we got conservative (fearful), we let other teams back into the game in more ways than one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 And just for some stats, 8 of the top 10 scoring teams made the playoffs last year, while only 3 of the top 10 defenses did. Times have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkansas Bengal Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Exactly, and this was the point I was trying to make on Gameday. Marvin is a defensive coach and he's still playing the game that existed 15 years ago. Problem is, the rules, and the athletes, and therefore the game, has changed. You can't just hope to have a dominant defense that will shut down air attacks -- even if you have a dominant defense. The rules are so receiver friendly that defenders have to play off and you get the Steve Smith TDs - never mind the fact that you are one PI away from giving up a 60 yard chunk. Today, the best Defense is to field a solid unit on that side of the ball, but also field an offense that will put up points. And if there's one common denominator among the perennial best teams in this league, it's that their offenses are high scoring. You can't have a high scoring offense if you decide that a 14 point lead in the 2nd qtr is enough and you're just going to hang on for dear life and run out the last 30 minutes of the clock. When we played our offensive game plan, we scored at will. When we got conservative (fearful), we let other teams back into the game in more ways than one. Damn, I hate to agree with alleycat...but he is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Would Pittspuke, Denver, Green Bay or New England take a knee under the same circumstances? No. Some play with courage, some play with fear.Yes. I have seen these teams sit on a lead with the ball before halftime instead of going into "hurry up" mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The defend-the-team-at-all-costs homerism is blinding.5 Drives and only scored on 2, you say? Hilariously bad circular logic. That's the whole point being argued. Had Marvin had a better command of his emotions (i.e. less greed and less fear), and done what 90% of other teams do, we'd:1) have smartly kicked a FG while up 14 on the road against a division opponent, further taking the air out of them. 2) recognized that we were moving the ball with ease in the game and have not shrunk back from using our 2 TOs with 30 seconds left at the 50. 15 yards was NOT some kind of overwhelming onus, given how we'd performed to that point. We'd have gone into the half having just scored under the gun and raising the tally to a demoralizing 20-0. So, the POINT is, we would have scored on 4 of our 5 first half possessions, which was a much better reflection of how we were actually whooping on the Ravens in the first half. The BIGGER point from that is, we would have hung 20 on these guys and gone into the half just having scored while shutting them out, VERSUS given them:1) a huge emotional momentum shift by not making the 4th and 1 2) tucking our tail between our legs and looking scared, and not scoring when we had the opportunity before the half, further cementing said emotional shift. I'm as much a homer and supporter of this team (see my years of taking Dalton flack and my founding membership to his Society of Defenders), but knee-jerk defenses like these are the kinds of things that rightly earn knee-jerk dismissals of certain posters who can't be trusted to take off their homer glasses and be objective. I don't even understand what you are trying to say. If you are claiming we should be aggressive because we are moving the ball so well then you should be in favor of us going for it on 4th down. But if you are afraid that the Ravens would stop us then we should have played it safe at the end of the half. But instead you say the exact opposite. you say we should have played it safe on 4th down because the chances were the Ravens would stop us, but at the end of the half we should have been aggressive because there was no way the Ravens would stop us. Maybe instead of just makinbg stuff up out of thin air Marvin looked at it this way. "I tried to be aggressive because we were moving the ball so well, but it cost me on that fourth down call, so i will play it safe at the end of the half." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 When we played our offensive game plan, we scored at will. When we got conservative (fearful), we let other teams back into the game in more ways than one. We opened the third quarter with a ten play drive that ended with an interception. That has nothing to do with Marvins play calling. the very next drive we threw on first down, but could not get 2 yards on the next two plays. again, that had nothing to do with Marvin being too conservative. That is exactly the way we had been playing the entire game.We also had a drive in the first half end with no points because Marvin was being TOO aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I don't even understand what you are trying to say. If you are claiming we should be aggressive because we are moving the ball so well then you should be in favor of us going for it on 4th down. But if you are afraid that the Ravens would stop us then we should have played it safe at the end of the half. But instead you say the exact opposite. you say we should have played it safe on 4th down because the chances were the Ravens would stop us, but at the end of the half we should have been aggressive because there was no way the Ravens would stop us. Maybe instead of just makinbg stuff up out of thin air Marvin looked at it this way. "I tried to be aggressive because we were moving the ball so well, but it cost me on that fourth down call, so i will play it safe at the end of the half."Every coach or at least an assistant in the both has a scoring chart. On 4th down on the road in easy field goal range up 14-0 that chart says kick field goal to make it a 3 possession game. If we make it and score a TD, it is STILL a 3 possession game. That was a simple decision and Marvin chose wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Every coach or at least an assistant in the both has a scoring chart. On 4th down on the road in easy field goal range up 14-0 that chart says kick field goal to make it a 3 possession game. If we make it and score a TD, it is STILL a 3 possession game. That was a simple decision and Marvin chose wrong.There is no such chart like that. There is one regarding when to go for 2 points after a td, but the decision Marvin made Sunday varies according to the situation.Some people would claim that going for a field goal would have been "giving up" and would have given all the momentum to the Ravens. And some people claim that would be "playing not to lose" and great cioaches like Belichick would never do anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 There is no such chart like that. There is one regarding when to go for 2 points after a td, but the decision Marvin made Sunday varies according to the situation.Some people would claim that going for a field goal would have been "giving up" and would have given all the momentum to the Ravens. And some people claim that would be "playing not to lose" and great cioaches like Belichick would never do anything like that. Kicking the field goal doesnt give the Ravens shit besides a larger deficit to make up. Missing on 4th down most certainly gave them momentum and a lift. Refusing to try and score with the ball at the 50 further added to their confidence. They knew they had been totally outplayed but we're only down by 2 scores. Those are fairly simple decisions for coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I don't even understand what you are trying to say. If you are claiming we should be aggressive because we are moving the ball so well then you should be in favor of us going for it on 4th down. But if you are afraid that the Ravens would stop us then we should have played it safe at the end of the half. But instead you say the exact opposite. you say we should have played it safe on 4th down because the chances were the Ravens would stop us, but at the end of the half we should have been aggressive because there was no way the Ravens would stop us. Maybe instead of just makinbg stuff up out of thin air Marvin looked at it this way. "I tried to be aggressive because we were moving the ball so well, but it cost me on that fourth down call, so i will play it safe at the end of the half."I'm saying we shouldn't be stupid. Going for it on fourth down when you are already up 14 points on the road against a div foe isn't aggressive, it's stupid. Knowing that you can move the ball well is further argument that you don't need to take undue risks. 3 pts is the right choice in that situation.Trying to get 15 yards in 30 seconds is also not an undue risk. It's not even aggressive. It's basic clock management (and when opposing D's are playing prevent, it's also quite attainable). The point is, we didn't HAVE to be aggressive in either of these scenarios BECAUSE we were moving the ball so well that day. You are making a logical leap (because it serves your argument, I guess) that aggressive = risky. In my book, giving yourself points that are virtually guaranteed when you are already up substantially is less risky, and the smarter move. The fact that you can move the ball well is not an open door to get stupid and overly aggressive. So yeah, that means don't go for it on 4th down. The fact that you seem to think that trying to get 15 yards with 30 seconds on the clock and two timeouts = overly aggressive doesn't make it so. It just goes to show that you are either slavishly dedicated to Marvin or somehow share his emotional/logical instability. And your last point about what Marvin thought is DEFINITELY what he thought and it's why he's not an appropriately rational head coach. Just like the week before against the chargers, he got scared and left points on the field. When your coach makes a bad decision, or feels a threat from a bad play (Andy's almost sack/fumble against SD), if your approach is to be reactive then you have no business being a head coach.Fear is contagious, and aside from these last many years, we now have two games worth of direct cause and effect evidence to see that play out, and to see Marvin's team catch his contagion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 We opened the third quarter with a ten play drive that ended with an interception. That has nothing to do with Marvins play calling. the very next drive we threw on first down, but could not get 2 yards on the next two plays. again, that had nothing to do with Marvin being too conservative. That is exactly the way we had been playing the entire game.We also had a drive in the first half end with no points because Marvin was being TOO aggressive.Marvin lets his team down and then they come out and don't execute. It's like clockwork. I've said it for years. The emotional instability on this team isn't because we've had people like Chad and Palmer and TJ etc. Marvin has always been the constant. Like almost every organization, this team is a reflection of its leaders personality. And one need look no further than watching his repeated total brain failure when faced with a pressing clock situation OVER AND OVER to see that that's the case. As I said before the Ravens game, I suspect this team will be able to overcome Marvin in that game. But it's clear his defeatist approach has an affect, and I don't think I'll be able to say the same against superior opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I don't even understand what you are trying to say. If you are claiming we should be aggressive because we are moving the ball so well then you should be in favor of us going for it on 4th down. But if you are afraid that the Ravens would stop us then we should have played it safe at the end of the half. But instead you say the exact opposite. you say we should have played it safe on 4th down because the chances were the Ravens would stop us, but at the end of the half we should have been aggressive because there was no way the Ravens would stop us. Maybe instead of just makinbg stuff up out of thin air Marvin looked at it this way. "I tried to be aggressive because we were moving the ball so well, but it cost me on that fourth down call, so i will play it safe at the end of the half."some people confuse their opinion with logic, and don't realize the contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 There is no such chart like that. There is one regarding when to go for 2 points after a td, but the decision Marvin made Sunday varies according to the situation.Some people would claim that going for a field goal would have been "giving up" and would have given all the momentum to the Ravens. And some people claim that would be "playing not to lose" and great cioaches like Belichick would never do anything like that. There must be one on Madden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The fact that you seem to think that trying to get 15 yards with 30 seconds on the clock and two timeouts = overly aggressive doesn't make it so. It just goes to show that you are either slavishly dedicated to Marvin or somehow share his emotional/logical instability. We got the ball on our own 40 with 30 seconds left. We needed at least 30 yards to get in filed goal range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Marvin lets his team down and then they come out and don't execute. It's like clockwork.Dude, you can't just make stuff up like this.Marvin did not "let the team down" before the half. We went into the locker room leading 14-0. And when we came out for the third quarter we ran off a 10 play 61 yards drive on out first possession.What has been more like clockwork over the last couple of years is the bengals scoring more points on the third quarter than most other teams in the league. We have ranked 7th and 11th in 3rd quarter points score that last two seasons. what ever Marvin is doing at halftime is workin g better than most other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 We got the ball on our own 40 with 30 seconds left. We needed at least 30 yards to get in filed goal range.Gio was tackled at the 50 with 26 secs left, clock running, two time outs. Instead of Marvin or Hue calling one of the timeouts, they had Andy run up to the line, he had to wait for everyone to set, then ran a pass play with 11 seconds on the clock (15 seconds ran off the clock). After that play failed we had 6 seconds left on the clock AND 2 timeouts remaining. HORRIBLE time management. We then called a timeout and the decision was made to run Gio to end the half. It was pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 We are still 3 and 0. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 great coaches like Belichick would never do anything like that. It's amazing how much greater he became after moving to a team in a shit division with a roster built by Parcells & Carroll.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 We are still 3 and 0. Period.Yeh but it'd probably be like 4 and -100 if it weren't for stupid Marvin being so stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Fan Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I'm not calling ML stupid at all, you said that. I'm just saying I think he makes the wrong decisions at times, is pretty pathetic at clock management and plays scared or not to lose at times.You talk about momentum yet ignore what another 3 points and a 3 possession game with us getting the 2nd half KO would have done for our momentum.Bend the stats however you wish on game time decisions or half time adjustments, we'll see in the next weeks before the bye what kind of a coach we have on game days...I say average to below. I hope with the talent of this team we continue to overcome his shortcomings.This is one of the most talented teams we have had in years, they just need a competent general to lead them on gamedays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Yeh but it'd probably be like 4 and -100 if it weren't for stupid Marvin being so stupid.Oh please with the absolutes. Marvin built a great team and does a good job overseeing their training and development during practice. His greatest weakness is in game time management and in game adjustments, aspects of head coaching that are extremely important in close games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Oh please with the absolutes. Marvin built a great team and does a good job overseeing their training and development during practice. His greatest weakness is in game time management and in game adjustments, aspects of head coaching that are extremely important in close games. Close games like the one he just won, you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Marvin has assistant coaches that should make suggestions to him during halftime. It's a team effort with all coaches. Please stop blaming Marvin. Don't all of you remember when we use to say, "IN MARVIN WE TRUST"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Gio was tackled at the 50 with 26 secs left, clock running, two time outs. Instead of Marvin or Hue calling one of the timeouts, they had Andy run up to the line, he had to wait for everyone to set, then ran a pass play with 11 seconds on the clock (15 seconds ran off the clock). After that play failed we had 6 seconds left on the clock AND 2 timeouts remaining. HORRIBLE time management. We then called a timeout and the decision was made to run Gio to end the half. It was pathetic. Sure, if you just look at simple facts like down-and-distance, field position, and time left on the clock then it looks really stupid to the average fan. But we just can't comprehend the complexity of the psychological tactics and counter-strategies that NFL coaches like Marvin have mastered. It is like children trying to apply the rules of checkers to 3 dimensional chess. If you were like me and had a dad who coached a middle school football team to TWO county championships then you would understand. Oh, also, if you don't support Marvin then you clearly are not a REAL fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 now 5 of the last 6. 4 straight. 1181 would you e-mail me?we need to talk about something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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