Homer_Rice Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Okay, I want to be level-headed here and not emotional. I do a daily roundup of a variety of sites all across the political spectrum. Noticed today at Lew Rockwell's blog an entry with links to [url="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45720"]this commentary[/url] and to [url="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45715"]this commentary[/url] at the famously neocon site WorldNetDaily. Read these pieces if you wish to see a reaffirmation of the core ideas of the foreign policy being run through the Bush admin right now. I'll be blunt, but not in an acrimonious way. If you think the ideas have merit, then you are very, very far away from the ideas that caused George Washington to call our founding "the Great Experiment." In fact, I'd go so far to say that these ideas are antithetical to the intent of our founders and are therefore, philosophically, anti-American. I restate my intent: it's philosphical inquiry, not blamecasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 [img]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/Shapiro3.jpg[/img] [i][b]you ever notice it is always dickheads like this..... (author of article 1) that support brave uninformed men like this dying......[/b][/i] [img]http://www.whodies.com/images/pic_ussoldier.jpg[/img][img]http://multigraphic.dk/lounge/weblog/images/uploads/us-soldiers-shot-01.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gonzoid Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Aug 12 2005, 11:30 AM'][img]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/Shapiro3.jpg[/img] [i][b]you ever notice it is always dickheads like this..... (author of article 1) that support brave uninformed men like this dying......[/b][/i] [right][post="129396"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] [img]http://prodtn.cafepress.com/2/24509652_F_tn.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I'm not anti-American. Am I against the world policies that current politicians practice? I'm still undecided. Will I publicly protest a war? Hell no, because being a former Marine, I know that it is tough enough to stay motivated and do your job. I bet it would be tons harder if there were a bunch of people back in your country telling you that you're job is not the right thing to do. Sorry, but I'm emotionally driven, gotta stick with my peeeps on that. I often lean to the libertarian side, not liberal (they're as much into world policing as the Republicans, they're all neo-cons now, don't you all get it?). But the libertarian side asks for us to no longer be the world police, bring our people back home. At the same time, I doubt we should just up and leave Iraq right now. That would spell disaster for the area. On the other hand, I feel that maybe our neo-con presidents are doing this to better our country, so that we stay an economical force. And now that I have a wife, who defines herself by bank accounts and college degrees, I feel that I must take care of my family. Before I had a family, I could care less about money in the bank and a college degree. So, times are changing in my life, and I'm not sure which foot I stand on. But, I remain open-minded enough to realize that our government is not exactly innocent. However, I may find their lack of innocence to have reason behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 [img]http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/zendaba/images/iraq_progress_9-18-04.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 [img]http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/zendaba/images/rummy_pictures.jpg[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Well, so much for trying to take the emotional charge out of this! I spent better than 3 years on gator-freighters, Steggy, toting you guys from Morehead City to the Med and back. Before I became a Petty Officer, every time we set Condition 1-Alpha, I bounded off to my station at Blue 6. So, I think we have a similarly cautious and thoughtful approach to our troops and their welfare. I did (and do) oppose the war actively in the streets, but I respect any vet who is following their conscience. What struck me with those articles is the clear statement, in layman's terms, of the rationale for imperialism and Empire. This is at the core of the neocon faction's worldview and it is a pretty precise grouping. While I understand why you think that appellation might bleed pretty widely across the political spectrum, I think it best to be careful. Many of the neocons are former Democrats of the Scoop Jackson variety, some were Trotskyites, and some have always been Republicans. The idea that holds them together though is that the US in the post Cold War period ought to dominate the world through the display of force, if necessary, and to prevent any other nation from becoming a competitive adversary. Now, there is a tendency within the foreign policy wonks in the Democratic party to accept and act according to the rules of geopolitics/realpolitick, but that is distinct from the out and out neocons. While that faction of Democrats plays a pretty rough game, they are explicitly anti-Empire. My thesis is this and I draw lesssons from both philosophy and history as my basis: If a person accepts the idea that Empire is a good policy for our nation, then that person is acting contrary to the long term interests of this nation. That person is also advocating a seismic shift away from the intent of the founders. As many factions as there were during the 1763-1815 period, they mostly agreed on a relatively coherent notion of just what a republic is, and they mostly agreed on the unique character of the American nation as the embodiment of those ideals. Hence, the "Great Experiment." One of the authors of the articles I linked to placed a great deal of emphasis on isolationist tendencies. The way he characterized it is almost like setting up a straw horse. I say almost because it is evident that he sincerely believes what he is saying, but I suspect that his understanding of American political and constitutional history is not detailed enough to offer a more refined expression of the tendency he describes as isolationist. Nonetheless, what these felows advocate is precisely why I am so fervently opposed to this war and the foreign policy initiatives put forth by this admin. The neocons are not the only presence within the Bush foreign policy apparatus, but they have hijacked the dialogue post 9-11 and imo, what they are attempting to do is doomed to failure, just as attempts to run an Athenian empire were doomed to failure, and just as the transition from the Roman republic to the Roman Empire was not good for humanity (though the Roman Empire worked, in its perverse way, for a longer period.) In our history, similar impulses have arisen on different philosophical grounds. The Seminole War, the Mexican War, all the privatized filibusters in the antebellum period do have one thing in common with our current foreign policy: a reliance on brute force to get what we want. This is, imo, anti-American in the sense that it is a betrayal of the many beautiful ideals which were expressed, if not fully realized, at the founding of our nation. I'm hoping that a few folks interesting in a constructive discussion will stop by and contribute. It's really important to dig away at this, imo. We'll see... I will be gone the rest of the day and tonight I'll be taking care of my football jones, just like everyone else here. Who Dey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 So, who can we put into office, non-Democrat, that is not for the Empire? I feel like I'm in Star Wars... Sorry, I just can't stand anti-guns laws, and pro-class action lawsuits, and victim mentality syndromes, etc. I'm for legalization of hemp/marijuana at the least, if not other harder drugs. Abortion, even though I am totally against it, I can live with the law either way, although unconstitutional according to our US constitution. I guess I really only fall under Libertarian, but some of their ideals are a bit extreme, such as no public land or roads. Maybe I can become a moderate Libertarian, or start my own political party. Hey, there it is. Anyone want to join? Oh, and by the way, I was at Cherry Point. I've been to Moorehead City many times. Love North Carolina, it's nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I'm not sure how any of the issues you mention are relevant to the foreign policy of the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 A lot of what Shapiro says at first makes some sense, but when he makes these "preservation of empire" and "the pursuit of an empire" rationalizations as something to be desired, that's where he loses me....we should protect our interests at home and abroad, we should actively hunt terrorists wherever they may appear (provided they really are terrorists and not some brown-skinned schmoe simply labeled by a white American as such), we should try to increase our alliances and be a harbinger of hope and peace to the world...through military force.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steggyD Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 [quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Aug 12 2005, 08:56 PM']I'm not sure how any of the issues you mention are relevant to the foreign policy of the US. [right][post="129806"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] Well, nothing, but I care about those things in domestic policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 [quote name='Bunghole' date='Aug 12 2005, 08:36 PM']A lot of what Shapiro says at first makes some sense, but when he makes these "preservation of empire" and "the pursuit of an empire" rationalizations as something to be desired, that's where he loses me....we should protect our interests at home and abroad, we should actively hunt terrorists wherever they may appear (provided they really are terrorists and not some brown-skinned schmoe simply labeled by a white American as such), we should try to increase our alliances and be a harbinger of hope and peace to the world...through military force.... [right][post="129885"][/post][/right][/quote] I'm all for having a military force which is capable of more than adequately defending our interests. The big question is: what are our interests? Or, in other words, the purpose of war is not merely to win the war, it is to win the peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 OIL is the interest. Republican agenda is the interest. Revenge is the interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 [i]"Governments can err, Presidents do make mistakes, but the immortal Dante tells us that Divine Justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on a different scale. Better the occasional faults of a government living in the spirit of charity, than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."[/i] [b]--Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1936 [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 [i]"I can't see that the President has prevented any terrorism. I think he's increased it, from everything we can see in Iraq. I have to thank the troops who put up with this 1diot Commander-in-Chief that we have." [/i] [b]--Congressman Pete Stark[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 [img]http://uploads.abovetopsecret.com/ats22681_OpenSecret_year2012.gif[/img] [i] If we can just pin point where the "Blind obedience" Gene is located [/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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