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On 10/21/2016 at 11:13 AM, Numbers said:

My leanings are somewhere in the middle of the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice.   For purposes of this understanding,  I've tried to remove religion from the discussion.   I'm having trouble with a few statistics from Guttmacher institute which performs information gathering for Planned Parenthood.   

"92% of abortions in America are purely elective -- done on healthy women to end the lives of healthy children."

I even revisited Roe vs Wade.   I'm now confused even more.   Can anyone explain the above 92% from either side of the discussion  ?

This also seems to be a hot button topic in the election but neither side is compatible with my way of thinking.  Rhetoric is enjoyable at times but facts are necessary for me to make a decision on the lesser of two evils. 

I don't know if explanation is necessary.  98.7% of all abortions occur before the 20th week and 80% before the 10th week.  That means most occur before there is "viability" in that "mass of cells".  Of the 1.3% that occur after the 20th week, almost every single one is the result of fetal deformity, fetal death in the womb, or health of the mother, and in most cases, if it is health of the mother and the baby is healthy, medical professionals will deliver the fetus and and attempt to support viability.  One of my son's friends just went through this.  His wife was in a position where carrying the fetus to term would have killed her, so they delivered the child at 26 weeks, and through the wonders of our medicine, and the grace of God, that child is alive.  Statistically, however, if the child had died, it would have been considered a late term abortion.

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9 hours ago, kennethmw said:

 One of my son's friends just went through this.  His wife was in a position where carrying the fetus to term would have killed her, so they delivered the child at 26 weeks, and through the wonders of our medicine, and the grace of God, that child is alive.  Statistically, however, if the child had died, it would have been considered a late term abortion.

 

Thanks for that example.  To me, asking the government to intrude on something like that based on my feelings is the height of arrogance.  It's absurd. 

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18 hours ago, kennethmw said:

I don't know if explanation is necessary.  98.7% of all abortions occur before the 20th week and 80% before the 10th week.  That means most occur before there is "viability" in that "mass of cells".  Of the 1.3% that occur after the 20th week, almost every single one is the result of fetal deformity, fetal death in the womb, or health of the mother, and in most cases, if it is health of the mother and the baby is healthy, medical professionals will deliver the fetus and and attempt to support viability.  One of my son's friends just went through this.  His wife was in a position where carrying the fetus to term would have killed her, so they delivered the child at 26 weeks, and through the wonders of our medicine, and the grace of God, that child is alive.  Statistically, however, if the child had died, it would have been considered a late term abortion.

Thanks Ken.   The information I had came from Planned Parenthood site.   I wonder why they simply couldn't or wouldn't publish the information you did.   Do you have a link for your stats  ?

Apparently there's a pattern of excessive bleeding in the women of my lineage which has caused death during childbirth at least six times that I am aware of.   Sometimes of the mother and sometimes the child and on one occasion,  both.   Miscarriages can affect the entire family with a sense of depression and color their views regarding this subject. 

Thanks again for the input Ken.   

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The fallacy in all this is that politicians, especially those running for president give a shit about abortion other than pandering to a certain base to get votes.....

Republicans even when they have had complete control of congress have done nothing to try to make abortion illegal....

...but people sure as hell vote for politicians on the sole fact they think they will.

 

I personally am pro choice.... I sure as hell don't like abortion but it's not my right to tell women what to do with their body.

 

Really put yourself in the position of a doctor telling you your wife is going to die if she carries your baby to full term....

then imagine you don't even have the option to save her life because the government took that right away....

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1 hour ago, Tigers Johnson said:

The fallacy in all this is that politicians, especially those running for president give a shit about abortion other than pandering to a certain base to get votes.....

Republicans even when they have had complete control of congress have done nothing to try to make abortion illegal....

...but people sure as hell vote for politicians on the sole fact they think they will.

 

I personally am pro choice.... I sure as hell don't like abortion but it's not my right to tell women what to do with their body.

 

Really put yourself in the position of a doctor telling you your wife is going to die if she carries your baby to full term....

then imagine you don't even have the option to save her life because the government took that right away....

QFMFT

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It all depends on when  you think life begins. I obviously don't think it begins until it can sustain it's self.

Why would you want to force someone to have a baby they obviously do not want?

Most of the people that say they're pro life are also against gays adopting children. Makes no sense to me.

Don't tell me you're pro life when you don't give a fuck about the babies after they're born.

Don't tell me you're pro life when you're  rooting for our Country to bomb the shit out of places.

 

It's America. You can be against shit without trying to force laws for it to be illegal.

 

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A couple of points from my perspective. I've never had a mole that had a heartbeat. I have 3 children but my wife and I lost one as well. I remember going to our doctor's appointment and the nurse trying like hell to find the heartbeat. It was one of the hardest days of my life and was particularly hard on my wife who grieved for a long long time. It is very offensive to me to compare a mole to a human embryo. It is a living being as soon as it is conceived imo and should be treated as such. 

With this perspective you can probably imagine it's hard for me to justify abortion except in the most extreme circumstances. I will never accept that roe v. wade is the correct decision. Sorry but to me this is murder. But I also know that my opinion is only one and others can have a different perspective. Therefore I don't think this is a federal issue but should be allowed or banned based on state. That is the whole purpose of the states and allows people to not feel infringed where the government is forcing laws that are severely against my morals. 

I expect to get crushed on preceding posts and luckily I don't really care :) But know that the roe v. wade decision has created this divide because it forced us to allow (imo) murder to the most innocent of our people. Also keep in mind I do believe there should be circumstances that abortion SHOULD be allowed at a federal level. But the question that seemed to be posing here is taking religion out of the question (hard for me to do, but ok) and whether or not voluntary abortions should be allowed... My simple answer is "let the voters decide".

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On 1/8/2017 at 11:02 PM, bengalrick said:

A couple of points from my perspective. I've never had a mole that had a heartbeat. I have 3 children but my wife and I lost one as well. I remember going to our doctor's appointment and the nurse trying like hell to find the heartbeat. It was one of the hardest days of my life and was particularly hard on my wife who grieved for a long long time. It is very offensive to me to compare a mole to a human embryo. It is a living being as soon as it is conceived imo and should be treated as such. 

With this perspective you can probably imagine it's hard for me to justify abortion except in the most extreme circumstances. I will never accept that roe v. wade is the correct decision. Sorry but to me this is murder. But I also know that my opinion is only one and others can have a different perspective. Therefore I don't think this is a federal issue but should be allowed or banned based on state. That is the whole purpose of the states and allows people to not feel infringed where the government is forcing laws that are severely against my morals. 

I expect to get crushed on preceding posts and luckily I don't really care :) But know that the roe v. wade decision has created this divide because it forced us to allow (imo) murder to the most innocent of our people. Also keep in mind I do believe there should be circumstances that abortion SHOULD be allowed at a federal level. But the question that seemed to be posing here is taking religion out of the question (hard for me to do, but ok) and whether or not voluntary abortions should be allowed... My simple answer is "let the voters decide".

 

 

Sorry to hear you and your wife lost a baby that you wanted. But you should not equate that to everyone wanting their 

baby when they find they're pregnant. 

 

An embryo is not a living being. It has the capacity to be one, but it needs an incubator to get there.

How can you call abortion "murder" when the very definition of murder is to do so "unlawfully"?

It has been legal for pretty much my entire lifetime and I'm 47 years old.

 

There are over 400,000 unwanted children in the foster care system. On average over 20,000 children "age out" of that system per year.

In simple terms, most of them were put out into the world on their own without housing, financial assistance or emotional support.

On average about 8% of the child population live in households that their parents are investigated for abuse and/or neglect.

This does not even take into account the children that are raised by grandparents or other family members because the biological

parents are uncaring and/or unfit. Why would you want to add to those numbers? Why don't you care as much about the children 

that are born in these instances as you do the unborn?

 

If you believe abortion is "wrong" because of your religious beliefs, then you must also believe that God knew their fate before it ever happened.

You must also believe that they are "in a better place". So again, why would you want to force someone that obviously made a choice to not

have a child, have a child? 

You can be against it. You can think it's wrong. But you don't have to make it illegal for others to do. Saying the states should decide is no different.

Why should voters that want nothing to do with helping you raise your child decide for you if you should have it or not?

It is still a government entity saying it is illegal and you must. Again. Put all of your energy into helping the people that are actually alive and breathing

right now. That is the more Christian thing to do. 

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The important point to note.... Is now that the election is over all the Facebook memes and all the abortion rhetoric is gone.... 

 

so if you voted for someone based on abortion alone you wasted your vote.... neither side wants to really change the law... they just want you to think they do to get your vote.

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12 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Sorry to hear you and your wife lost a baby that you wanted. But you should not equate that to everyone wanting their 

baby when they find they're pregnant. 

An embryo is not a living being. It has the capacity to be one, but it needs an incubator to get there.

I don't equate the two, I don't believe that this is just a mass of nothing that just grows until one day it gets born and THEN it's a baby. I felt that sharing my story would bring home the point that it is a living being (imo) because it has a heartbeat... They have many other very human like characteristics as well but to me this is the definition of being alive. Yes it cannot live on its own but I have 3 children (oldest 8) that can't live on his own lol. Put him on the streets and don't cook him 3 square meals and some ice cream for a snack and he would starve!! I am trying to bring some light to the subject because I get that not everyone has my point of view on this. But I don't think this argument holds water. In this case, would a premature baby also be categorized as "not a human yet" when they are on an incubator? When should we officially draw the line?

How can you call abortion "murder" when the very definition of murder is to do so "unlawfully"?

It has been legal for pretty much my entire lifetime and I'm 47 years old.

So I guess you caught me here, never even equated that murder was something "unlawful" but your right. Silly mistake on my part. Should have used the word killing but it sounded better when I said murder :) I shouldn't really use words like that anyway though, it just drives the divide between the pro life/choice when I use words that will just piss off the choice people. I don't mean to call them murders or killers. But I do think that the baby is living at conception.

There are over 400,000 unwanted children in the foster care system. On average over 20,000 children "age out" of that system per year.

In simple terms, most of them were put out into the world on their own without housing, financial assistance or emotional support.

On average about 8% of the child population live in households that their parents are investigated for abuse and/or neglect.

This does not even take into account the children that are raised by grandparents or other family members because the biological

parents are uncaring and/or unfit. Why would you want to add to those numbers? Why don't you care as much about the children 

that are born in these instances as you do the unborn?

Not saying this isn't a problem Old and I don't have a great response for this. I don't believe in bending my morals. It's not always the end result that is important, to me the means of getting there is just as important. 

If you believe abortion is "wrong" because of your religious beliefs, then you must also believe that God knew their fate before it ever happened.

You must also believe that they are "in a better place". So again, why would you want to force someone that obviously made a choice to not

have a child, have a child? 

I am skipping your religious comments. Seems somewhat patronizing and I don't really want to get into a religious spout with you but I will say that I think your point of view on this is complete horse shit.

You can be against it. You can think it's wrong. But you don't have to make it illegal for others to do. Saying the states should decide is no different.

Why should voters that want nothing to do with helping you raise your child decide for you if you should have it or not?

It is still a government entity saying it is illegal and you must. Again. Put all of your energy into helping the people that are actually alive and breathing

right now. That is the more Christian thing to do. 

As far as you not agreeing with me that the states should decide, I guess you think that it's fine that the a law is telling me killing babies exterminating pregnancies prematurely is legal when I completely disagree with it morally? By making it a federal law now the federal government is literally taking my money and handing some of it to organizations that perform abortions... that should just be ok with me? Why not put it in the states hands? If my state votes against it but another doesn't, you can move to that state. As it is now, unless I want to fund abortions I would have to move out of the country that I was born and raised in and love dearly. Or just grin and bare it which I guess is my only option because as Tiger stated no one is going to overturn roe v. wade and the divide will exist most likely throughout my lifetime...

 

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9 hours ago, bengalrick said:

 

  

When I go to respond, this is what I get. So it's like you said nothing.

I hate that ...

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12 hours ago, bengalrick said:

I don't equate the two, I don't believe that this is just a mass of nothing that just grows until one day it gets born and THEN it's a baby. I felt that sharing my story would bring home the point that it is a living being (imo) because it has a heartbeat... They have many other very human like characteristics as well but to me this is the definition of being alive. Yes it cannot live on its own but I have 3 children (oldest 8) that can't live on his own lol. Put him on the streets and don't cook him 3 square meals and some ice cream for a snack and he would starve!! I am trying to bring some light to the subject because I get that not everyone has my point of view on this. But I don't think this argument holds water. In this case, would a premature baby also be categorized as "not a human yet" when they are on an incubator? When should we officially draw the line?

 

My point is life begins when life can sustain it's self. This is for the sake of you claiming someone getting an abortion is a "murderer"

and "so unacceptable" that it should not legal for anyone to do. We officially draw the line at 20 weeks or when the woman's life is in danger.

Simply having a heartbeat does not equal life. Just recently my cousin had a heart beat but was brain dead. Another means than her own kept her alive.

 

Also, there have been plenty of children put on the streets, ran away ect. When you're alive and want to live you find a way.

Or if you're meant to live God will find a way. At least that's what I was taught in church.

I'm sure you already knew that not all abandoned children and runaways died though.

 

Quote

So I guess you caught me here, never even equated that murder was something "unlawful" but your right. Silly mistake on my part. Should have used the word killing but it sounded better when I said murder :) I shouldn't really use words like that anyway though, it just drives the divide between the pro life/choice when I use words that will just piss off the choice people. I don't mean to call them murders or killers. But I do think that the baby is living at conception.

 

Well you can think that all you want. You can be against it. You can teach your children that. You can tell people that.

But you don't have the right to take away the choice from everyone else. Just because you believe something doesn't make it right

and everyone else wrong.

 

Quote

Not saying this isn't a problem Old and I don't have a great response for this. I don't believe in bending my morals. It's not always the end result that is important, to me the means of getting there is just as important. 

 

And that's what a lot of people have a problem with when it comes to Republicans and/or Pro Life.

You claim to be Pro Life but really you're just Pro Birth. Just have the babies and forget everything after that.

Cut education. Act like anyone getting government assistance is beneath everyone else. Not try and help cut unwanted 

pregnancies with free birth control and education. But just make it harder for women to get abortions. They just want 

to want to win a culture war in the name of "traditional values".

 

Quote

As far as you not agreeing with me that the states should decide, I guess you think that it's fine that the a law is telling me killing babies exterminating pregnancies prematurely is legal when I completely disagree with it morally? By making it a federal law now the federal government is literally taking my money and handing some of it to organizations that perform abortions... that should just be ok with me? Why not put it in the states hands? If my state votes against it but another doesn't, you can move to that state. As it is now, unless I want to fund abortions I would have to move out of the country that I was born and raised in and love dearly. Or just grin and bare it which I guess is my only option because as Tiger stated no one is going to overturn roe v. wade and the divide will exist most likely throughout my lifetime...

 

Hyde Amendment

 

It's been this way your entire life Rick. Have you thought about moving to another Country?

There will be a divide only because some people won't accept that you can be against something

and think it's wrong, it's against your religious beliefs and your morality, but other people can still do it.

You know, like gay marriage?

Why can't our government treat women as sovereign over their own bodies? 

How do you feel about your tax dollars going to make bombs that kill innocent children in other Countries?

How do you feel about our Government giving Israel billions of $$$ every year for free?

Did you know they have universal health care and offer FREE abortions to women aged 20-33?

You want to move there? I mean, that is God's chosen people ...

 

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22 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

And that's what a lot of people have a problem with when it comes to Republicans and/or Pro Life.

You claim to be Pro Life but really you're just Pro Birth. Just have the babies and forget everything after that.

 

 

 

It's almost as if it's not really about the sanctity of life so much as exerting control and imposing their religious beliefs on others.

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4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

It's almost as if it's not really about the sanctity of life so much as exerting control and imposing their religious beliefs on others.

QFT

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LOL you guys don't know me, how do you know that I don't care about kids after their born? Never said that, I don't believe it... I am also not trying impose to put my religious beliefs on any of you... I am not that kind of guy I try to be open minded and I certainly don't fall into the category that you think I do. I have many liberal beliefs, granted I lean conservative/libertarian but I am not someone that just says what other people think because I fit into a little box. But on this issue I do happen to be very much a pro-life person...

You brought up gay marriage Old. it's none of my business what other people do... I am married and I wouldn't recommend it lol. But notice one huge difference between the abortion and gay marriage debate right? It's up to the states to decide... In other words, it's up to you and I to vote on whether we think it should be allowed in our state. Not based on the out-of-touch politicians and un-elected supreme court justices to make the decisions for us... Just saying, it brings a good point up imo.

Hate to say it, but this small debate makes me remember why I don't hang out and do this anymore (other than the whole lack of time and full of responsibility thing)... One differing opinion and then a bunch of jacking each other off and making false assumptions about the "black sheep" of the forum....

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13 hours ago, bengalrick said:

 

 it's none of my business what other people do...

Ironic. That's all I'll say... 

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20 hours ago, bengalrick said:

LOL you guys don't know me, how do you know that I don't care about kids after their born? Never said that, I don't believe it... I am also not trying impose to put my religious beliefs on any of you... I am not that kind of guy I try to be open minded and I certainly don't fall into the category that you think I do. I have many liberal beliefs, granted I lean conservative/libertarian but I am not someone that just says what other people think because I fit into a little box. But on this issue I do happen to be very much a pro-life person...

You brought up gay marriage Old. it's none of my business what other people do... I am married and I wouldn't recommend it lol. But notice one huge difference between the abortion and gay marriage debate right? It's up to the states to decide... In other words, it's up to you and I to vote on whether we think it should be allowed in our state. Not based on the out-of-touch politicians and un-elected supreme court justices to make the decisions for us... Just saying, it brings a good point up imo.

Hate to say it, but this small debate makes me remember why I don't hang out and do this anymore (other than the whole lack of time and full of responsibility thing)... One differing opinion and then a bunch of jacking each other off and making false assumptions about the "black sheep" of the forum....

 

If you're a conservative/libertarian and a staunch opponent to Pro-Choice, are for funding education, welfare and other programs that

benefit the poor, then you're a rare breed. And whether you're that or not you have to admit a huge majority of Pro-Life people are 

really Pro-Birth by their other beliefs, correct?

Gay marriage is not a state issue. And it never should be up to a vote if people are treated equally by our Government.

This Country was founded on great ideas. All men created equal, and freedoms. But we haven't really reached that level yet because

some people want to act like we're not all created equal because of who they think created us and the book they use to justify it with.

 

Your last line was uncalled for. Where is the jacking off and shit? And you're right. I don't know you.

All I know of you is what you say. I responded to what you said. 

 

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By the way. I am a leave your religion out of it, marriage for all supporting, Pro-choice cheering, make pot legal, quit blaming immigrants,

stop bombing countries and denying the people caught in between refuge, fuck the 1%, tired of the bullshit, tree hugging Independent. :good:

 

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9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

By the way. I am a leave your religion out of it, marriage for all supporting, Pro-choice cheering, make pot legal, quit blaming immigrants,

stop bombing countries and denying the people caught in between refuge, fuck the 1%, tired of the bullshit, tree hugging Independent. :good:

 

Please rewrite for clarity.

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4 hours ago, CincyInDC said:

Please rewrite for clarity.

 

I get my political views from watching  South Park 

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On 1/13/2017 at 7:44 PM, oldschooler said:

 

If you're a conservative/libertarian and a staunch opponent to Pro-Choice, are for funding education, welfare and other programs that

benefit the poor, then you're a rare breed. And whether you're that or not you have to admit a huge majority of Pro-Life people are 

really Pro-Birth by their other beliefs, correct?

 

I am all for helping out the poor. What is the saying about give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish. I think that welfare is very very important in our society. For some (single mothers for instance) it is a necessity but for many others we should be giving technical training so they can get jobs. While I don't think that college is for everyone nor should it be funded as such, training specific trades should be funded and provided to anyone. Especially those that are on welfare. 

As far as my last statement, your right and I must have been having a bad night... Either way I do miss the old give and take this forum used to be and it seems like that is long over. I can't blame anyone but myself though because I was one of the voices to the right of most of you and I don't contribute anymore. But even still, it seems like there is usually one opinion and others just pile on for anyone not in that opinion. 

This country was founded as colonies and eventually states because there are differences of opinion and laws should be made by the will of the people. Otherwise why have states? The biggest issue with abortion is it being forced upon the half of the country that believe it is wrong.

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9 hours ago, bengalrick said:

I am all for helping out the poor. What is the saying about give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish. I think that welfare is very very important in our society. For some (single mothers for instance) it is a necessity but for many others we should be giving technical training so they can get jobs. While I don't think that college is for everyone nor should it be funded as such, training specific trades should be funded and provided to anyone. Especially those that are on welfare. 

As far as my last statement, your right and I must have been having a bad night... Either way I do miss the old give and take this forum used to be and it seems like that is long over. I can't blame anyone but myself though because I was one of the voices to the right of most of you and I don't contribute anymore. But even still, it seems like there is usually one opinion and others just pile on for anyone not in that opinion. 

This country was founded as colonies and eventually states because there are differences of opinion and laws should be made by the will of the people. Otherwise why have states? The biggest issue with abortion is it being forced upon the half of the country that believe it is wrong.

Teaching a man to fish is important....

 

The problem is today's GOP doesn't even want to give a man a pole and some bait. 

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11 hours ago, bengalrick said:

This country was founded as colonies and eventually states because there are differences of opinion and laws should be made by the will of the people. Otherwise why have states? The biggest issue with abortion is it being forced upon the half of the country that believe it is wrong.

 

Please cite me one example of an abortion being forced on anyone.  Being allowed to do something is not even close to the same thing as being forced.

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

Please cite me one example of an abortion being forced on anyone.  Being allowed to do something is not even close to the same thing as being forced.

And no, China is not the USA.... 

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