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My Defense perspective and questions...


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So the defense has fallen from top 5 to around middle of the pack, ranked 18th currently in PPG IIRC.

Dansby is basically a garbage can in a jersey. Dansby is smart, he is Dhani Jones, it feels like every third down i see Dansby making the tackle 1 yards past the yard markers.. dude is garbage, lost a huge step. 

Why the fuck is Vigil not playing?

I know marvin always plays vets over rookies, but at some point a point far past how bad Dansby is, is when a rookie mistake is going to happen less than a slow veteran not being good enough to make a play. and then, in 6-8 games, that rookie is up to speed. 

I think we would have much greater success with a vigil, burfict, maualuga trio than with dansby in there.

Second problem we have has our safeties, either williams or iloka would be fine, but both together arent doing well obviously, THIS is where you need a mediocre vet to get them on the same page and make a better read and better communication. Iloka and williams played very well with Nelson back there helping direct traffic. But it doesnt seem either are leading from there... where is a kim herring or dexter jackson player when you actually can use them?

 

i think those two fixes alone solve the issues, HELL Vigil instead of dansby i think kills 2 drives a game, i think Vigil makes 2 plays a game quicker than Dansby on 3rd down to end a drive before they get that first down..

going forward we are in a tough spot, guys are going to get older, our older guys overlapped our younger repalcements by too many years and some young guys left on the DL, thats going to hurt in 1-3 years.

Corners i dont ahve any issue with.. people shit on kirkpatrick and Dennard and everyone but im watching 3-4 others games a week and top corners are getting shit on left and right, both with calls and with getting smoked.. 

we need another LB, we are a burfict injury or suspension away from being a team giving up 30+ points. 

PS: i dont care what Dawsons issue was he is better than Dansby, Kalib Miller is equal to Dansby.. im all set on shitty old as fuck LB's.. AJ Hawk filled that spot last year, only he left the field on passing downs... 

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Who's call is it to start Dansby over Vigil?  Marv's call or P.G? 

 

Biggest thing I see holding this defense back is Peko.  Is Pat Sims too out of shape to take that first team spot? Pat Sims seems like the much better player.With his huge ass in there they could almost go with just 3 down linemen on passing downs with a blitzing Dansby and the younger faster Vigil in coverage. Might sound crazy. Peko seems to always be on the ground. Couldn't hurt to try something new.

 

I hate seeing any of our linebackers in coverage because they don't seem any good at it. Do teams still run 6 DB's anymore? Dime package.  I honestly think that would be our best shot on passing downs. 4 down 1 backer and 6DB's.

'

 

 

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Same coordinator, basically same personnel, same scheme as 11months ago when no one could score on them. Unless Emmanuel Lamur and Reggie Nelson were the only two great players on the field back in January, and Vance Joseph was the sole defensive coach...then there are some other reasons. Conclusion: it can be fixed...and not in 3 years...now. 

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The Bengals haven't had a decent cover LB in a while.  Vinny Rey isn't bad, but too damn short to deal with TEs.

None of your analysis addresses the lack of a pass rush.  Even when they blitz it's ineffective, which leaves someone wide the F open.  The DBs will look a heck of a lot better if the QB doesn't have plenty of time to throw.  Atkins still gets good push up the middle, but our end rushers, Dunlop and Johnson, seem to be on the downside of their careers.  Hunt and Clarke have shown a bit of spark and appear to be decent backups, but we are no long rich at the DE position.  The fact that the blitzes are ineffective goes back to predictability and that is on Guenther.

Either we have seen a deterioration in personnel, or the coaching is crap.  My guess is that it's a bit of both.  

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5 hours ago, Catfish Bob said:

Who's call is it to start Dansby over Vigil?  Marv's call or P.G? 

 

Biggest thing I see holding this defense back is Peko.  Is Pat Sims too out of shape to take that first team spot? Pat Sims seems like the much better player.With his huge ass in there they could almost go with just 3 down linemen on passing downs with a blitzing Dansby and the younger faster Vigil in coverage. Might sound crazy. Peko seems to always be on the ground. Couldn't hurt to try something new.

 

I hate seeing any of our linebackers in coverage because they don't seem any good at it. Do teams still run 6 DB's anymore? Dime package.  I honestly think that would be our best shot on passing downs. 4 down 1 backer and 6DB's.

'

 

 

Peko is you're biggest concern? That doesn't even make sense.

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Well if we're raining on random ass defenders, let's go ahead and point out Dunlap, where the holy hell has one of the best 4-3 DE's in the game been? Isn't he supposed to strike fear in opposing QB's, he looks like Michael Johnson 2.0 this year.

Everything get's fixed if you can get the QB on the ground or at least moving. i think we have more depth now at DE, Hunt and Clarke have looked decent, IMO Dunlap needs to come out more so he is better rested for 3rd down.

 

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1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

The loss of Reggie Nelson can not be understated, it was the single biggest mistake to let him go.

I agree also.

Don't forget letting Vance Joseph go as well.

But I have a strong feeling he will be back as our head coach next year

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2 hours ago, turningpoint said:

Well if we're raining on random ass defenders, let's go ahead and point out Dunlap, where the holy hell has one of the best 4-3 DE's in the game been? Isn't he supposed to strike fear in opposing QB's, he looks like Michael Johnson 2.0 this year.

Everything get's fixed if you can get the QB on the ground or at least moving. i think we have more depth now at DE, Hunt and Clarke have looked decent, IMO Dunlap needs to come out more so he is better rested for 3rd down.

 

Dunlap will have to be incredible in the 2nd half of the season to hit that 23 sack goal he set for himself and felt the need to publicize.

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2 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

The loss of Reggie Nelson can not be understated, it was the single biggest mistake to let him go.

Marvin Lewis will be the first to tell you that turnovers can change the course of a game. Last year we had 21 picks, and Nelson accounted for 8 of those. So, if turnovers are important, pay the man. If you value play makers, pay the guy making plays.

Nelson has more INT's in Oakland than any player has for the Bengals this year. 6 passes defensed vs. Williams' 2.

More than that.... This defense is just plain unprofessional. Too many BS calls for ticky-tack crap. Spearing a receiver who's on the ground. Getting into scuffles after the whistle. And that lack of discipline shows in other areas too.

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The Bengals have a number of starters (Maualuga, Peko, Williams, Dansby) who are below NFL average standards, some barely at average and maybe below (Kirkpatrick, Johnson) while the remaining group has shown ability but are not producing (Burfict, Dunlap, Atkins, Jones, Iloka). Throw is a serious downgrade in coaching (loses of Zimmer, Joseph and Carrier) along with poor drafting that has failed to fill position holes of departed and/or piss poor starters and it's a recipe for mundane to below average. Look at the Bengals FA and Draft additions on defense over the past five years:

DRAFT (Bolded Selected In The First Three Rounds)
William Jackson (Injured)
Nick Vigil (Bench)

Andrew Billings (Injured)
Clayton Fejedelem (Special Teams)
Paul Dawson (Practice Squad)
Josh Shaw (Back Up)
Marcus Hardison (Injured)
Derron Smith (Back Up)
Darqueze Dennard (Back Up/ Slot CB)
Will Clarke (Rotation/Back Up)

Marquis Flowers (Back Up)
Lavelle Westbrooks (Gone-CFL)
Margus Hunt (Rotation / Back Up)
Shawn Williams (Below Average Starter)

Shaun Porter (Gone-Jaguars Practice Squad)
Dre Kirkpatrick (Average Starter)
Devon Still (Gone-Texans Injured Reserve)

Brandon Thompson (Injured)
Shaun Prater (Gone-Free Agent)
George Iloka (Starter)

FREE AGENCY
Pat Sims (Boomerang Rotation / Back Up)
Karlos Dansby (Below Average Starter)
Michael Johnson (Boomerang Average Starter)
AJ Hawk (Gone)
James Harrison (Gone)
Michael Boley (Gone)
Jason Allen (Gone)
Jamaal Anderson (Gone)
Terence Newman (Gone)

Despite the incredible lack of talent added over the past five years, I still point to one overwhelming factor...coaching. Last year the stars of the defense were Atkins, Dunlap, Jones, Nelson, Burfict and Iloka. All but Nelson are still here and ALL are having below average years. Coincidence? All five of them, in one year?!? Nope.

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4 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

So with the same coordinator, how is that? 

Coaching bleedover or whatever anyone wants to call it.   IMHO it was still Zimmers defense and Guenther has caretaker ability but no capability to adjust which could also be coming from you know who. 

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1 hour ago, Numbers said:

Coaching bleedover or whatever anyone wants to call it.   IMHO it was still Zimmers defense and Guenther has caretaker ability but no capability to adjust which could also be coming from you know who. 

With all respect, sir, that is rubbish. Paulie is over two years removed from the deity. If that "caretaker" stuff was going to take hold, it would have happened last year at the latest. Instead, the defense was only a few points from giving up the least in the entire league. And the whole achievement was not due solely to Reggie Fucking Nelson. 

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7 hours ago, BengalFanInTO said:

Despite the incredible lack of talent added over the past five years, I still point to one overwhelming factor...coaching. Last year the stars of the defense were Atkins, Dunlap, Jones, Nelson, Burfict and Iloka. All but Nelson are still here and ALL are having below average years. Coincidence? All five of them, in one year?!? Nope.

Biggest mistake apart from letting Joseph go was thinking Kevin Coyle is still a good secondary coach and re-hiring him. Mark Carrier actually made this group play beyond their abilities over the previous 2 years, helping the resurrect Adam Jones' career to a new level in the process. Our secondary personnel hasn't had a major overhaul so I say Coyle is the biggest problem.

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On 11/1/2016 at 1:44 AM, Catfish Bob said:

Who's call is it to start Dansby over Vigil?  Marv's call or P.G? 

 

Biggest thing I see holding this defense back is Peko.  Is Pat Sims too out of shape to take that first team spot? Pat Sims seems like the much better player.With his huge ass in there they could almost go with just 3 down linemen on passing downs with a blitzing Dansby and the younger faster Vigil in coverage. Might sound crazy. Peko seems to always be on the ground. Couldn't hurt to try something new.

 

I hate seeing any of our linebackers in coverage because they don't seem any good at it. Do teams still run 6 DB's anymore? Dime package.  I honestly think that would be our best shot on passing downs. 4 down 1 backer and 6DB's.

'

 

 

hard to say whos call it is, id assume paul can do what he wants but has to pass it by marvin. and lets be honest these guys like zampeze and paul are promoted from within and are just happy for the promotion, so i dont see any big push back from them, the "im doing it my way without asking" are the hugh jackson and mike zimmers of the world. we dont have those anymore.. from position coach to coordinator is a big pay jump, and after all they promoted both guys to continue running the same system they ahve been running.

 

as for peko, im pretty tired of this complaint, while peko is on the end of his career, he does a damn good job at taking up his blockers, moving linemen, and is a top tier role player, there was a time when peko was the best DL we had and got a bunch of sacks and stuff himself, now we have better skill players on the DL, but those players require someone like Peko to do their job and do it the right way for them to have success.

I assume peko has 1-2 years left before he calls it quits, but by no means is he costing this team anything currently skill wise. 

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16 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

With all respect, sir, that is rubbish. Paulie is over two years removed from the deity. If that "caretaker" stuff was going to take hold, it would have happened last year at the latest. Instead, the defense was only a few points from giving up the least in the entire league. And the whole achievement was not due solely to Reggie Fucking Nelson. 

while it is rubbish that he was hired to not throw anything away and keep it all tucked nicely, its pretty obvious that both zap and paul were chosen since they were born and raised in the system(so to speak) they clearly wanted to keep the system the same, otherwise to go grab the next hot shot zimmer or hue on the market... they are clearly "dont mess with success" promotions/hires.

the defense is a wise safety and a faster LB away from being close to itself again..  so i think its MORE of a talent issue than a scheme issue, however there are obviously scheme issues now that we have talent issues.... if that makes sense

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15 hours ago, EnglishBengal said:

Biggest mistake apart from letting Joseph go was thinking Kevin Coyle is still a good secondary coach and re-hiring him. Mark Carrier actually made this group play beyond their abilities over the previous 2 years, helping the resurrect Adam Jones' career to a new level in the process. Our secondary personnel hasn't had a major overhaul so I say Coyle is the biggest problem.

even adam strictly credits zimmer with his career resurrection, i dont think coyle or carrier as that big of factors or detractors. perhaps it was a carrier/zimmer combo? but i havent seen a single player mention or care about carrier as being part of the success or whatever, perhpa si just missed those comments. but i have only seen them about zimmer.

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17 hours ago, GoBengals said:

while it is rubbish that he was hired to not throw anything away and keep it all tucked nicely, its pretty obvious that both zap and paul were chosen since they were born and raised in the system(so to speak) they clearly wanted to keep the system the same, otherwise to go grab the next hot shot zimmer or hue on the market... they are clearly "dont mess with success" promotions/hires.

 

Obvious problem with that line of thinking being that the rest of the league (barring a few exceptions) haven't been sitting on their hands to accommodate our status quo. The teams in our division in particular are going to find it much easier to defend last year's playbook.  Except Cleveland because Cleveland.

Zampese has been getting better at the situational calls but still strikes me as too finesse-oriented and simply lost when games get down to the blood & guts. Of course when you're losing at the LOS this badly the offense is going to struggle. Not much he can do about an overrated OL.

Guenther may understand Zimmer's scheme but has been blitzing too much.  Plus from what I understand, Coyle doesn't coach the DB's in the same style of aggressive press coverage that were crucial to that defense.  Either that or the guys we drafted to play that style aren't actually capable of doing so at this level.  Beyond that, Guenther's defense is woefully undisciplined and unmotivated.  Any schmuck can call plays and give up 30pts a game.

 

 

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