oldschooler Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Is this fake news even though Spicer said Trump believes it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Homer_Rice said: Well, I'm a quasi-pinko and I'm happy that the TPP withdrawal has happened and I hope that he follows through on trying to renegotiate NAFTA. Of course, what comes after may be a disaster if he can't fend off the worst aspects of our current neoliberal consensus. Also, I'd caution about falling for the "Russia hacked us" meme. Look underneath...ask why this is so important when, even to this day, no substantive proof has been made public. What's going on? (Hint: a lot!) The CIA and FBI confirmed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 49 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said: The CIA and FBI confirmed it. Confirmed what, precisely? This is my point. There is so much propaganda flying about now, from all kinds of "sources", from all parts of the political spectrum. And yet, no conclusive proof of anything yet. Just a lot of insinuation and innuendo. Wikileaks? Counterstrike? Steele? Sorry, Mike, I'm not going to take the CIA's nor the FBI's confirmation at face value without something more substantial in the way of proof. I'd suggest that their track record allows for some skepticism. Let them prove, with some rigorous evidence, to the American people, all these accusations. Folks like you are me are being taken for dupes plenty enough; no reason to help the process along by buying in to all this contradictory chaff without requesting--as a good citizen ought--more substance. This admin is going to be pretty disastrous as it is. Even without all this overt political infighting. The least we can do is hold everyone accountable to some form of truth-telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Homer_Rice said: Confirmed what, precisely? This is my point. There is so much propaganda flying about now, from all kinds of "sources", from all parts of the political spectrum. And yet, no conclusive proof of anything yet. Just a lot of insinuation and innuendo. Wikileaks? Counterstrike? Steele? Sorry, Mike, I'm not going to take the CIA's nor the FBI's confirmation at face value without something more substantial in the way of proof. I'd suggest that their track record allows for some skepticism. Let them prove, with some rigorous evidence, to the American people, all these accusations. Folks like you are me are being taken for dupes plenty enough; no reason to help the process along by buying in to all this contradictory chaff without requesting--as a good citizen ought--more substance. This admin is going to be pretty disastrous as it is. Even without all this overt political infighting. The least we can do is hold everyone accountable to some form of truth-telling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the sources traced back to Russian hacking groups that have previously established ties to their intelligence agencies? Is there some reason a rogue group of hackers in Russia would be interested in targeting the DNC? I read they had Russian-language notes in part of their code, which originated from known source or sources, specific IP addresses or ISPs, in Russia.. I understand that in a court of law this is circumstantial, but in the court of common sense who else could it be? Further, why would Trump repeatedly lie about having met Putin? Given a choice between trusting Trump & his Russian-aligned cabinet vs both the FBI & CIA, I'm going to side with the ones that aren't continually lying about things that are obviously bullshit. At this point I feel safer assuming anything Trump's people say is the exact opposite of reality. If they denied being 3 dogs in a trench coat I'd start looking for a tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/jan/25/trump-greenpeace-white-house-protest I just made a donation to Greenpeace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 8 hours ago, T-Dub said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the sources traced back to Russian hacking groups that have previously established ties to their intelligence agencies? Is there some reason a rogue group of hackers in Russia would be interested in targeting the DNC? I read they had Russian-language notes in part of their code, which originated from known source or sources, specific IP addresses or ISPs, in Russia.. I understand that in a court of law this is circumstantial, but in the court of common sense who else could it be? Further, why would Trump repeatedly lie about having met Putin? Given a choice between trusting Trump & his Russian-aligned cabinet vs both the FBI & CIA, I'm going to side with the ones that aren't continually lying about things that are obviously bullshit. At this point I feel safer assuming anything Trump's people say is the exact opposite of reality. If they denied being 3 dogs in a trench coat I'd start looking for a tail. Aren't these allegations serious enough to warrant a court of law? Or at least the kind of evidence that would be admissible in a court of law? Read this. And this, for starters. Lots of other commentary addresses the sloppiness of the whole situation. --- Must there be an either/or choice? Perhaps it is possible that the bullshit is coming at us both both sides? Hell, from 360 degrees? Here's how folks who push bullshit take advantage of our pedestrian "common sense" outlooks. Propagandists know that the truthfulness of an assertion doesn't matter as much as a repetitive drumbeat of narrative which allows them to browbeat dissenters. Fake news, anyone? As I mentioned earlier, we are entering a new geopolitical phase shift. It's a multi-polar world once again. Could be good or could be very dangerous. There are factions who want to divide and conquer; there are factions who support friendly relations with Russia and not-so-friendly relations with China; there are factions which are friendly with China and not so friendly with Russia. Best we pay attention before we end up in WWIII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/24/14363148/trade-deals-nafta-wto-china-job-loss-trump Save this for later but I think dismissing the trade deals as negative is missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 55 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said: http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/24/14363148/trade-deals-nafta-wto-china-job-loss-trump Save this for later but I think dismissing the trade deals as negative is missing the point. Well, what is your point? Did you just dredge this article up? For what purpose? Bring your thoughts to the table. While you are at it, make an argument. I've been reading DeLong for years. He self-identifies as a neoliberal. He's okay as an economic historian if you accept that he is an apologist for his POV (as we all are to a certain extent.) "I am probably an outlier among neoliberal and neoclassical economists in thinking that most of that shedding — US job shedding that exceeded German job shedding — was bad." This article isn't bad, but he frames it in a crappy way. Paraphrase: NAFTA is small piece of the puzzle when the entire context is taken into account. His presumption is that the opponents of NAFTA saw it as a cause of decline rather than a symptom of a prevailing anti-industrial shift away from material goods production into a shiny new financialized world. That began in the early 60s. There are plenty of folks, like me, who--at that time--understood NAFTA for what it was: another means to drive down wages/labor costs and to hurt the collective bargaining positions of unions. (and more...) I'll be honest, Mike. I spent the entire Spring and Summer rebutting bullshit like this from die-hard Clinton supporters. If you have some well thought out views on trade policy I'd be happy to hear them. If you are just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, then I have no interest (and not much respect, either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 6 hours ago, Homer_Rice said: Well, what is your point? Did you just dredge this article up? For what purpose? Bring your thoughts to the table. While you are at it, make an argument. I've been reading DeLong for years. He self-identifies as a neoliberal. He's okay as an economic historian if you accept that he is an apologist for his POV (as we all are to a certain extent.) "I am probably an outlier among neoliberal and neoclassical economists in thinking that most of that shedding — US job shedding that exceeded German job shedding — was bad." This article isn't bad, but he frames it in a crappy way. Paraphrase: NAFTA is small piece of the puzzle when the entire context is taken into account. His presumption is that the opponents of NAFTA saw it as a cause of decline rather than a symptom of a prevailing anti-industrial shift away from material goods production into a shiny new financialized world. That began in the early 60s. There are plenty of folks, like me, who--at that time--understood NAFTA for what it was: another means to drive down wages/labor costs and to hurt the collective bargaining positions of unions. (and more...) I'll be honest, Mike. I spent the entire Spring and Summer rebutting bullshit like this from die-hard Clinton supporters. If you have some well thought out views on trade policy I'd be happy to hear them. If you are just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, then I have no interest (and not much respect, either.) I have no well thought out views. I don't know much about the TPP or NAFTA. What I do know is the economists that I talk to say that these deals are great because they won't lower wages and the country is better off in the long run because it opens markets to what we are selling and improves the buying power of other countries so we end up with a net gain economically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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