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8 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I'm wondering how many Falcons fans said "omg if we fire Mike Smith we're going to end up back in the dark ages and never win again!1!!1!!1!!!!!!!!!"

probably none..  he had won 10 games in his last two years....   marvin has won 18.

 

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8 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

probably none..  he had won 10 games in his last two years....   marvin has won 18.

 

And his regular season and playoff winning percentages are still better than Marv. It's sad. I'd love to see Marvin go on a run here, I just don't know how realistic it is. 15th times the charm, I suppose.

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5 minutes ago, TheBeaverHunter said:

Switching gears....Would you guys rank Belichick as a top three all time coach?  After watching the two football life episodes of him "95 Browns and the year with Belichick"...it really opened my eyes to how great of a coach, on many different levels, that he is.

I don't think you can even be a consideration if you haven't coached at least 100 games. Hell, I'd probably set that to a higher number myself, but I'm sure most people would use 100 to keep guys like Lombardi and Madden in the discussion. So let's take out anyone that hasn't coached 100+. These are all time numbers...

Belichick is 4th in regular season wins, 8th in regular season W/L%, 3rd in playoff appearances, 1st in playoff wins, 7th in playoff W/L% (3rd if you take out the guys that coached 5 or less total playoff games), 5th in NFL Championship/Super Bowl wins combined, 1st in Super Bowl wins, 1st in Conference Championship games won, and he hasn't had a losing season since the year 2000.

Top 3? Of course. He's probably going to go down as the greatest coach in NFL history with his resume. Regardless of what fans around the NFL will say, I don't think videotaping a couple of practices and slightly underinflating a few footballs is going to give you such an edge where you don't have a losing season in over 15 years. People will say he "cheated" to get to where he is, but he's earned his accomplishments, as have all of the players on his teams.

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12 minutes ago, TheBeaverHunter said:

Switching gears....Would you guys rank Belichick as a top three all time coach?  After watching the two football life episodes of him "95 Browns and the year with Belichick"...it really opened my eyes to how great of a coach, on many different levels, that he is.

Belichick also has two Super Bowl rings as a DC.  Bill Parcells never won shit without Belichick as his DC.

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16 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Belichick also has two Super Bowl rings as a DC.  Bill Parcells never won shit without Belichick as his DC.

 

And his teams were penalized twice for cheating in the postseason.  How the fuck can someone be the greatest anything when they cheat at it repeatedly? Boggles my mind how this doesn't even enter into the discussion.

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5 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

And his teams were penalized twice for cheating in the postseason.  How the fuck can someone be the greatest anything when they cheat at it repeatedly? Boggles my mind how this doesn't even enter into the discussion.

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Just now, T-Dub said:

 

I'm not sure what this means?  Are you saying if I cheat and win it doesn't matter that I cheated?  K.. We should play poker sometime.

Nah but nice strawman.

Anyway, it's just making fun of people who make such a huge deal of the "cheating".

Sure, let's just take away Belichick's 20 years of accomplishments since his team may have played a couple of games with slightly underinflated footballs where his team blew the opposition away. We can pretend that negates everything Bill has done in his career to be like every other NFL fan that loves screaming "OMG CHEATRIOTS HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

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10 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Nah but nice strawman.

Anyway, it's just making fun of people who make such a huge deal of the "cheating".

Sure, let's just take away Belichick's 20 years of accomplishments since his team may have played a couple of games with slightly underinflated footballs where his team blew the opposition away. We can pretend that negates everything Bill has done in his career to be like every other NFL fan that loves screaming "OMG CHEATRIOTS HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

 

Cheating should be a huge deal.  Look at the Patriot's fumble stats compared to every other team in the league.  It wasn't "a couple of games".  He also was caught taping practices, which I suppose you'll say was also NBD.  Let me ask you this; if under-inflating balls and taping practices was really so insignificant, why the fuck would they risk losing draft picks & having their MVP QB suspended 1/4 of the season to do it? Obviously they thought it gave them an advantage. But hey, since they won while cheating, who cares right?  How does that make any kind of sense..

 

So yes, when you are talking about how great a coach someone is and don't even mention their penchant for cheating, that negates their accomplishments in my mind.  I think it's reasonable to assume that if someone is caught cheating twice, they were cheating the other times, too.  But maybe you're a more trusting soul than I am.  Again, let me know about that poker game.  I totally pinky-swear not to cheat like those other times.  Besides, you would've lost anyway so it doesn't matter.

HURRDURR indeed.

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1 minute ago, T-Dub said:

 

Cheating should be a huge deal.  Look at the Patriot's fumble stats compared to every other team in the league.  It wasn't "a couple of games".  He also was caught taping practices, which I suppose you'll say was also NBD.  Let me ask you this; if under-inflating balls and taping practices was really so insignificant, why the fuck would they risk losing draft picks & having their MVP QB suspended 1/4 of the season to do it? Obviously they thought it gave them an advantage. But hey, since they won while cheating, who cares right?  How does that make any kind of sense..

 

So yes, when you are talking about how great a coach someone is and don't even mention their penchant for cheating, that negates their accomplishments in my mind.  I think it's reasonable to assume that if someone is caught cheating twice, they were cheating the other times, too.  But maybe you're a more trusting soul than I am.  Again, let me know about that poker game.

So you're just going to run with what's in your head instead of what actually happened in the past? Cool.

You can't just point at fumble stats and say "OMG THE BALLS WERE CLEARLY DEFLATED!!!", hell, New Orleans and Baltimore have regularly fumbled less than New England over the past few years. There are more teams too depending on which years you want to crucify the Pats for.

Deflategate is the most hilarious thing in the universe. People got up in arms over it just because it was the Patriots and the Patriots win and people cry because of that. There was 1 football that was 2 PSI under regulation found in 1 football game where the Pats smashed the Colts. If you think the Patriots blew them out in every facet of the game due to 1 football being TWO PSI short of regulation, well, I've got some bridges and property to sell you, so please PM me so we can discuss that!

"Spygate" was because they were taping signals from their own sideline instead of from the legal locations, nothing to do with taping practices. Maybe you should read up and learn the facts before running around having such a strong opinion on the topic. You are absolutely allowed to tape signals from the opposing teams, however, the NFL has/had designated places where this was allowed. The Pats taped the Jets from their own sideline instead, and "Spygate" was born. No other convictions regarding taping.

NFL fans WANT the Patriots to be cheaters, people hate seeing perennial winners and will whine and cry until they feel justified that the winners cheated so they don't have to admit there is such a winning organization in the league. I couldn't care less, hell, I respect them for their winning environment and the accomplishments that they've had over the years.

If you think it's justified to shit all over Belichick's career due to the fact that he taped signals outdoors instead of indoors 1 time and that there was 1 football 2 PSI under inflated, then be my guest. Just don't be surprised when there are people that know the whole stories that are laughing at the conspiracies and people freaking out over these things that should have really been close to non-stories.

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It's interesting how in your mind you "know the whole story" but I am "freaking out".  Did you put on your cape before you typed that wall-of-text response?

In what reality does the "NFL want the Patriots to be cheaters"?  The Patriots cheated.  Full stop.

I don't really care that much about the Patriots one way or the other, the modern NFL is a farce anyway and only the most gullible accept it at face value. The Pats are just one of the many, many examples of how narrative is more important than reality. 

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3 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

It's interesting how in your mind you "know the whole story" but I am "freaking out".  Did you put on your cape before you typed that wall-of-text response?

In what reality does the "NFL want the Patriots to be cheaters"?  The Patriots cheated.  Full stop.

I don't really care that much about the Patriots one way or the other, the modern NFL is a farce anyway and only the most gullible accept it at face value. The Pats are just one of the many, many examples of how narrative is more important than reality. 

You just seem to be the typical NFL fan that wants to whine about the Patriots and call them cheaters instead of accepting that they're a well run organization that is full of perennial winners.

The biggest things people can point to when they talk about the Patriots "cheating" is how they recorded signals during a game (perfectly legal) except they did it once from their sidelines (not legal) instead of from an indoor location, and then that one time where they had 1 football deflated 2 whole PSI. Oh no! Sound the alarms! CHEATERS CHEATERS CHEATERS!!!! Seriously though, they're the exact things you brought up, and you didn't even know what happened during Spygate since you said they were taping practices. You just call them cheaters because everyone else says they cheated.

I'll go by facts and what has been proven, and you can go by what you want to believe because you heard other people say it so it must be true. Have fun with that. I'd hate seeing facts too if they shut down all of my arguments.

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3 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

You just seem to be the typical NFL fan that wants to whine about the Patriots and call them cheaters instead of accepting that they're a well run organization that is full of perennial winners.

The biggest things people can point to when they talk about the Patriots "cheating" is how they recorded signals during a game (perfectly legal) except they did it once from their sidelines (not legal) instead of from an indoor location, and then that one time where they had 1 football deflated 2 whole PSI. Oh no! Sound the alarms! CHEATERS CHEATERS CHEATERS!!!! Seriously though, they're the exact things you brought up, and you didn't even know what happened during Spygate since you said they were taping practices. You just call them cheaters because everyone else says they cheated.

I'll go by facts and what has been proven, and you can go by what you want to believe because you heard other people say it so it must be true. Have fun with that. I'd hate seeing facts too if they shut down all of my arguments.

 

Ah yes, everyone is a typical NFL fan but you.  Gotta love that.

The Patriots were caught cheating twice, lost draft picks in the first case and had Brady suspended in the 2nd.  Those are facts that were proven.

IN contrast, your argument that A)People calling them cheaters for, guess what, cheating, are some hysterical mob and B)It doesn't matter anyway because they only got caught cheating a little bit, are examples of "what you want to believe".

 

 

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Brady was suspended for not complying with the investigation, and he was suspended for "probably" being aware of the footballs that were "probably" slightly under inflated. They didn't even have hard evidence that it happened, just that it could have, so Goodell did what Goodell does.

Yup, you're right though! I'm on the way to the store to grab my tin foil right now, gonna make one of those cool hats you people like to wear. I feel really, really bad for you if you think taping signals from the sideline and under inflating a football caused 20 years of success.

BUT like you said, they probably did more! Who knows?! Nobody does for sure, so we'll just assume they cheated a lot more because that's what I want to believe! WHERE'S MY TIN FOIL BARBARA???

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6 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Brady was suspended for not complying with the investigation, and he was suspended for "probably" being aware of the footballs that were "probably" slightly under inflated. They didn't even have hard evidence that it happened, just that it could have, so Goodell did what Goodell does.

Yup, you're right though! I'm on the way to the store to grab my tin foil right now, gonna make one of those cool hats you people like to wear. I feel really, really bad for you if you think taping signals from the sideline and under inflating a football caused 20 years of success.

BUT like you said, they probably did more! Who knows?! Nobody does for sure, so we'll just assume they cheated a lot more because that's what I want to believe! WHERE'S MY TIN FOIL BARBARA???

 

Are you ok?

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12 minutes ago, USN Bengal said:

Stealers are bigger cheatees than the Pats, and always have been... Yet you will find no one who will bring that up when discussing their perennial "greatness".

 

 

Not buying the "but other people cheat more" defense but thank you for not immediately going ad hominem with it

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Just now, T-Dub said:

 

Are you ok?

Yeah, are you?

For the record, I didn't say that you're the typical NFL fan and that I'm so great. I said you're the typical NFL fan that whines about the Patriots cheating and I'm clearly not in that category.

You had this discussion so obviously you have a somewhat strong opinion on the topic. I'm just curious of why that is if you don't even fully comprehend what happened in "Spygate" or "Deflategate". You were incorrect in the accounts of both of them, and seem to think it's some huge deal that somehow taints Belichick's 20 year legacy.

You aren't going to change your mind, so I'm done here, but I believe your thought process and logic regarding this is very goofy. You just move the goal posts and make strawman arguments claiming I'm implying stuff that I've never said over and over, while I'm trying to point out how you're acting like the other thousands of fans that have to shit on the Pats and can't just admit they're a great organization.

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1 minute ago, omgdrdoom said:

You aren't going to change your mind, so I'm done here, but I believe your thought process and logic regarding this is very goofy. You just move the goal posts and make strawman arguments claiming I'm implying stuff that I've never said over and over, while I'm trying to point out how you're acting like the other thousands of fans that have to shit on the Pats and can't just admit they're a great organization.

 

OK, let's leave the cheating aside and I'll ask you this:  Do you think they're still a great organization if they were in a division that was at least halfway competitive? 4-6 gimme division wins a year goes a long way towards securing that #1 seed.

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23 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

OK, let's leave the cheating aside and I'll ask you this:  Do you think they're still a great organization if they were in a division that was at least halfway competitive? 4-6 gimme division wins a year goes a long way towards securing that #1 seed.

Before forgetting about the cheating, just know I live in the Pittsburgh area and I'm pretty sure Stealers fans hate the Patriots even more than their division rivals for some reason. I'm just sick of hearing the excuses from all of these cousin fucking turds and how PIT is a superior organization to the Pats since Belichick is such a cheater. My own personal experiences have led me to easily become defensive and frustrated when the Pats are accused of the cheating, because IMO the stuff they're accused of and have been convicted of has been blown way out of proportion by the commissioner and a lot of NFL fans. So I wasn't trying to say you're some kind of horrible person or whatever, I've just had this argument dozens of times and it's a topic that can really grind my gears.

Anyhoo, I do think they're a great organization regardless of their division.

1. The Dolphins and Jets have both had some strong teams in the Belichick/Brady era. It's not really as simple as saying they have 4-6 gimme games. The Dolphins have had a top 10 defense 7 or 8 times in the Brady era. The Jets made back to back Conference Championships at one point and have had some top defensive units themselves as well. The Bills aren't a perennial 1-4 win team or anything either, they've won 6+ games in 13 of the past 15 seasons. They aren't GREAT teams, but they aren't all a bunch of losers that the Pats easily defeat each season. The Patriots win a lot in the division and outside the division, they just WIN in general. Hell, Tom Brady has a higher career win% against the AFCN, AFCS, NFCE, and NFCN than he does in his own "gimme division".

2. People like to talk about how tough division games are in the AFCN solely because they're an opponent that sees us a lot, and that applies elsewhere too. Buffalo doesn't lay down for the Pats year after year like the Browns don't let us run over them 100% of the time.

3. If they're consistently getting all of these easy wins as you say, what about the fact that they're playing a 1st place schedule almost every single year? Shouldn't that count for something?

If you want to look at a guy that's made a name for himself for beating up a weak division, go check out Andrew Luck's split stats by division.

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