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Draft well and keep your own FA.....BS

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6 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

No denying it IMO.  ML's lifetime contract & MB"s "Redeemer" bullshit demonstrate a lack of accountability. The PeeWee soccer-ish plan of alternating series between competing players at a position, sticking with players like Nugent that are clearly costing them games, Marvin bending over for lopsided officiating that lets his players get targeted for injury.. Add to all that playing in a conservative-minded media backwater where half the "fans" seem to hate the team or at best expect them to lose.. Why would anyone want to play here, honestly?

Indeed. All of it. 

Which makes it imperative that Marvin's successor either be handed the bull's balls or be ready to grab them. We need someone who has a fire in their belly and some sense of justice.

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On 2/9/2017 at 2:32 PM, SocalBengalEd said:

Takeo spikes, Johnathan Joseph,  Steinbach and Zeitler call bull shit. 

Spikes asked to leave. Team was gonna tag and let go he didnt want to be here.

Joseph was offered same money, he wnated out.

Steinbach refused to talk extension with bengals, went to cleveland and was never worth his contract. Great run blocker, horrendous in pass.

Zeitler is literally the only complaint as team won't even offer him an extension.

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20 minutes ago, TimKrumrieFan said:

Zeitler is literally the only complaint as team won't even offer him an extension.

 

Really? Where are you getting that?

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

Really? Where are you getting that?

Zeitler's wife. During season and since season ended Zeitler has approached the team first with a lets talk and second time with an offer. Team has never responded back to either reach out with any type of counter.

Hobson and Lapham have hinted around it on radio lately that unless they were getting Zeitler on a deal like they stole Boling on, then they won't bother signing him. They don't believe in paying elite money for a guard and Zeitler is likely to get 9-10 mill per in FA market. Lapham believed the team is content with Hopkins/Westerman/Johnson as the RG options (and possibly a mid to late draft pick).

Normally this wouldn't  bother me as I don't believe paying OGs 8+ mill is smart, but the team has the money and unless they actually go use it in FA then it is stupid not to retain him. If they re-purpose that money to get Whit, Dre, Burkhead signed and then go grab a couple decent FA options then I'm okay. They have plenty of money to retain all of their current FAs though so not signing him and not signing anyone else is just Mike Brown being cheap.

It has been rumored that Dalton, Green (he also went vocal on radio row) and Marvin Lewis have been pushing for them to approach FA a little more aggressively this year. So I guess we have a chance to actually do something in FA........if Mike Brown is willing to listen to the guys he should listen too.

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^ Thanks for clarifying.  Not getting my hopes up about FA but at least there's some noise.

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There is one thing to be nervous about if any of your favorite players are about to become UFAs in Cincinnati.

When we let a guy "test the waters", how many still end up Bengals? I'm only talking about starting caliber players here too.

In the recent past at least, we've always given out extensions prior to anyone hitting the market, at least to the big name players we want to keep. I've always viewed it as a sign that we're almost 100% to let someone walk if we actually let them hit the market.

I'm sure there's someone I'm missing, maybe a couple players. Did Maualuga hit the open market before we re-signed him to one of his 2 post-rookie contracts?

I guess my point is that Whitworth, Dre Kirk, and Zeitler are all in the tier where you can kiss them goodbye if you don't hear that they've been re-signed before the official UFA period begins.

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I want to say Andre Smith hit the market and then was signed here after failing to find a team during his first UFA.

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29 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

I want to say Andre Smith hit the market and then was signed here after failing to find a team during his first UFA.

There's one, thank you! I knew there would be at least 1 or 2 recent examples but couldn't put my finger on it.

Looks like both Maualuga and Andre Smith in 2013 fit the criteria.

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1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

There is one thing to be nervous about if any of your favorite players are about to become UFAs in Cincinnati.

When we let a guy "test the waters", how many still end up Bengals? I'm only talking about starting caliber players here too.

In the recent past at least, we've always given out extensions prior to anyone hitting the market, at least to the big name players we want to keep. I've always viewed it as a sign that we're almost 100% to let someone walk if we actually let them hit the market.

I'm sure there's someone I'm missing, maybe a couple players. Did Maualuga hit the open market before we re-signed him to one of his 2 post-rookie contracts?

I guess my point is that Whitworth, Dre Kirk, and Zeitler are all in the tier where you can kiss them goodbye if you don't hear that they've been re-signed before the official UFA period begins.

It seems like players/agents are much more prone to try to test the market these days around the NFL. So I don't think you can necessarily compare the past few years to 10 years ago. 

As for guys who hit the open market and came back...George Iloka, Pacman Jones, Andre Smith, Rey Maualuga, and Clint Boling just off the top of my head in recent years. 

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2 minutes ago, happyrid said:

It seems like players/agents are much more prone to try to test the market these days around the NFL. So I don't think you can necessarily compare the past few years to 10 years ago. 

As for guys who hit the open market and came back...George Iloka, Pacman Jones, Andre Smith, Rey Maualuga, and Clint Boling just off the top of my head in recent years. 

Oh for sure and I wasn't trying to trash the organization or anything with what I was saying earlier.

I guess my point is more for the entire NFL than the Bengals. It's not a Bengals exclusive thing, but if a great player hits the open market, it's usually for a reason that the team didn't lock him up beforehand and he's more than likely as good as gone from the original team.

I wasn't really trying to say it was something that happened to the Bengals more than other teams because that wasn't my point. I just think if Dre, Whitworth, or Zeitler hit the open market, they're going to be out of Cincinnati.

Thanks for the names, I totally forgot that Iloka wasn't extended prior to his contract expiring. I went back and read an article about his signing to refresh my memory, that was one that definitely slipped my mind.

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On 2/10/2017 at 2:18 PM, omgdrdoom said:

How frequently do you see an oft injured, human turnstile on the field NFL tackle turn into a capable starter the next season?

I'm all for giving guys a shot, especially ones that show SOME promise, but what have we seen from Ogbuehi other than some of the worst tackle play in recent memory?

I'd also have a better feeling about his development if he was under a different position coach.

Didn't someone just suggest re-signing Andre Smith?

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20 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Didn't someone just suggest re-signing Andre Smith?

Who said that?

I know I mentioned that it felt like a Bengals thing to do with him becoming a UFA in a spot that most are viewing as a need. There's a huge difference between making a prediction and suggesting what the team should do.

Regardless of me never saying that I want to bring him back, he would absolutely be an upgrade to what we had at RT last season, though he's not a great player either.

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36 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Oh for sure and I wasn't trying to trash the organization or anything with what I was saying earlier.

I guess my point is more for the entire NFL than the Bengals. It's not a Bengals exclusive thing, but if a great player hits the open market, it's usually for a reason that the team didn't lock him up beforehand and he's more than likely as good as gone from the original team.

I wasn't really trying to say it was something that happened to the Bengals more than other teams because that wasn't my point. I just think if Dre, Whitworth, or Zeitler hit the open market, they're going to be out of Cincinnati.

Thanks for the names, I totally forgot that Iloka wasn't extended prior to his contract expiring. I went back and read an article about his signing to refresh my memory, that was one that definitely slipped my mind.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is quite as true anymore. Players and agents are more intent on testing the market, even if they're leaning towards sticking around with the same team. Once it gets to January, fewer and fewer are willing to sign before March. 

Just last year, guys like Doug Martin, Jason Pierre-Paul, Tamba Hali, Donald Penn, Antonio Gates, Richie Incognito, etc. all hit FA and stayed with their previous team.

 

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6 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Who said that?

I know I mentioned that it felt like a Bengals thing to do with him becoming a UFA in a spot that most are viewing as a need. There's a huge difference between making a prediction and suggesting what the team should do.

Regardless of me never saying that I want to bring him back, he would absolutely be an upgrade to what we had at RT last season, though he's not a great player either.

He'd be an upgrade over Eric Winston at least. At this point in his career, Smith isn't going to be guaranteed a starting spot anywhere. As a backup, he's still a good option. And the Bengals need to have a strong Plan B at RT because Fisher looked pretty shaky and only has 3 starts under his belt at the position. I think he has a pretty good chance to be decent there, but it's nowhere near a guarantee.

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4 minutes ago, happyrid said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is quite as true anymore. Players and agents are more intent on testing the market, even if they're leaning towards sticking around with the same team. Once it gets to January, fewer and fewer are willing to sign before March. 

Just last year, guys like Doug Martin, Jason Pierre-Paul, Tamba Hali, Donald Penn, Antonio Gates, Richie Incognito, etc. all hit FA and stayed with their previous team.

 

Yeah you're right that it's happening more now than previously, but look at a lot of the names listed here.

Most of the top tier guys that actually hit the open market and end up with their team had some kind of question mark attached to them though. Legal issues, frequent injuries, hitting the age wall at certain positions, etc. Those types of players seem to be more likely to test the waters and see if there's any team still willing to give them a huge contract and not care as much as their current team about the red flags.

Again this goes for the entire NFL, but I feel like most top tier players without any red flags hit the open market when their current team is 100% okay with letting them walk. If a young, good player like Zeitler hits the open market, it's simply because the Bengals know what money he wants and they aren't giving it to him. The second free agency starts and he doesn't have a contract with the Bengals, I'd say there's a 99.99999% chance he doesn't end up back here. This would be true if he played on the other 31 teams too.

Every single year I see a lot of fans watch Player X, Y, or Z hit the market and then get really disappointed when they inevitably sign somewhere else. Specifically out of the 3, if there's an official report that comes out that says we're letting Zeitler "test the market", or that we aren't going to offer Zeitler a contract until after the official FA period begins, there's no need to even consider him an option for our 2017 roster anymore.

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29 minutes ago, happyrid said:

He'd be an upgrade over Eric Winston at least. At this point in his career, Smith isn't going to be guaranteed a starting spot anywhere. As a backup, he's still a good option. And the Bengals need to have a strong Plan B at RT because Fisher looked pretty shaky and only has 3 starts under his belt at the position. I think he has a pretty good chance to be decent there, but it's nowhere near a guarantee.

 

I keep coming back to this, but:

1. They need another OT, yes we all hope Fisher or Ced work it out but hope is not a strategy.  Right now we don't have a single undisputed starter-quality lineman under contract. Not one.

2. We could draft OL in every round and they'd still be coached by Paul Alexander and working in an offense built on a philosophy of trying to trick defenses instead of lining up and kicking their asses.

 

Someone explain to me how OL is not the #1 concern on this team?

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51 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I keep coming back to this, but:

1. They need another OT, yes we all hope Fisher or Ced work it out but hope is not a strategy.  Right now we don't have a single undisputed starter-quality lineman under contract. Not one.

2. We could draft OL in every round and they'd still be coached by Paul Alexander and working in an offense built on a philosophy of trying to trick defenses instead of lining up and kicking their asses.

 

Someone explain to me how OL is not the #1 concern on this team?

To the bold, Boling.

But yeah, having a total of 1 good lineman under contract is absolutely fucking terrifying.

Look at the teams to win at least 1 playoff game in the 2016-2017 season. Hell, look at the teams that even made the playoffs. Stellar line play on almost every single one of them.

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33 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

To the bold, Boling.

But yeah, having a total of 1 good lineman under contract is absolutely fucking terrifying.

Look at the teams to win at least 1 playoff game in the 2016-2017 season. Hell, look at the teams that even made the playoffs. Stellar line play on almost every single one of them.

 

I'm OK with Boling written in at LG but I'm not 100% sold on him either.  When the interior OL is flailing it's hard to tell sometimes who is screwing up and who is getting beat because they're worrying about the other guy screwing up.  Boling's played pretty well at times and not so well at others.  Point being even with him there's room to upgrade.

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I kinda understand the economics of not re-signing Zeitler as he will probably be one of the highest paid players at his position and Boling is already making top 20 money. However from a pure I want the best players possible standpoint it doesn't make any sense not to sign a guy who is arguably your best OL prospect, someone that could start for the next 5 years and make multiple Pro Bowls. 

This offseason for the Bengals front office has been a cluster and they are showing their ineptitude. They come out and say they're not going to even try to re-sign a former first round pick that has played hard, made the Pro Bowl, and was an asset to the organization because of the money. Then they refuse to cut Pacman Jones even though he as been arrested, wished death upon a policeman for doing his job, spit on a nurse, and could save almost 7 million dollars in the process. 

Re-signing Zeitler and cutting Pacman should be no-brainers, but that is assuming you have a brain. What message is that sending to your players and fans if you let a solid guy like Zeitler that has never been in trouble off the field and performed at a high level on the field walk, while retaining a perennial visitor of the Hamilton County Jail over the dumbest shit ever whose play has declined significantly stay? Can you honestly say this organization is doing everything they can to field the best team possible? 

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19 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

I kinda understand the economics of not re-signing Zeitler as he will probably be one of the highest paid players at his position and Boling is already making top 20 money. However from a pure I want the best players possible standpoint it doesn't make any sense not to sign a guy who is arguably your best OL prospect, someone that could start for the next 5 years and make multiple Pro Bowls. 

This offseason for the Bengals front office has been a cluster and they are showing their ineptitude. They come out and say they're not going to even try to re-sign a former first round pick that has played hard, made the Pro Bowl, and was an asset to the organization because of the money. Then they refuse to cut Pacman Jones even though he as been arrested, wished death upon a policeman for doing his job, spit on a nurse, and could save almost 7 million dollars in the process. 

Re-signing Zeitler and cutting Pacman should be no-brainers, but that is assuming you have a brain. What message is that sending to your players and fans if you let a solid guy like Zeitler that has never been in trouble off the field and performed at a high level on the field walk, while retaining a perennial visitor of the Hamilton County Jail over the dumbest shit ever whose play has declined significantly stay? Can you honestly say this organization is doing everything they can to field the best team possible? 

I could not agree with you more.  It makes me madder every single freaking day that pacman is on this roster.  He looked like the biggest asshole on the planet on the video released, and if he did actual spit on a nurse too (which I'm sure he did), they should have told him to fuck off the day they heard about it.  I don't understand any reason whatsoever for keeping that dickhead on the roster regardless, and his decline in performance & obvious history should seal the deal.  This BS about "letting the legal situation play itself out" is one of the dumbest decisions the brass could have made.  I've said it a million times, he did the organization a favor by doing this dumb shit, b/c they obviously would have continued to overpay him for 2 more years b/c they don't know how to cut someone that is past their prime and making too much.

 

I am coming around on the situation regarding Zeitler.  But the bottom line is I will be able to stomach not paying Zeitler over $10million/year will be acceptable IF Whit is signed, Dre is signed, and a decent starting caliber interior lineman is signed in FA.

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Two words just came to my mind (and forgive me if someone has already suggested this):

Franchise Tag

This organization has even used this on a kicker, so I know it could be in play.

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50 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

Two words just came to my mind (and forgive me if someone has already suggested this):

Franchise Tag

This organization has even used this on a kicker, so I know it could be in play.

Franchise tag for OL is $14M this year.

Rumors are that the team hasn't even reached out to Zeitler about a contract. (A few weeks ago at least...) Who knows what to believe? I keep hearing that the Bengals don't place a high dollar value on Guards, so why do we spend high draft picks on them? The team has plenty of money to sign him, the salary floor means it has to be spent... What player are they targeting with that money?

No idea what the Bengals front office is thinking. Or if they're thinking. Zeitler has been durable and a consummate pro. These are supposedly the types of guys we want to keep, yes?

I still think the Browns are going to Andrew Hawkins us on this one. The have $50M in cap rollover and $100M to spend on players. They could just front load his deal to where we couldn't match. Hue already has a connection with Big Z. Option B is that Zeitler already has his eye on playing for his hometown Packers.  However, his 2016 Twitter sure made it look like is was about the dollars. If it's just money, my bet is that he goes Steinbach 2.0.

IMHO, I'd be more inclined to spend the Franchise Tag on Kirkpatrick. Same money for a higher value position. (OL numbers are inflated by Tackles) CB is also a position where one year might be all we need to see if Dennard and WJ3 live up to draft billing. The Bengals have no one waiting in the wings at Right Guard that could be considered better than a PS guy. If we can't sign Z, I'd rather go after Lang, Warford, or Warmack. Honestly, if Sportrac is close with a $6.2M cost to sign for Warford, then don' let the door hit ya where the lord split ya Kevin.

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Yeah, the Pack makes the most sense for him. Born and bred cheesehead. They are losing their RG anyway. Money is good and all, but playing with Rodgers or RGIII...? 

I really think they will use the Franchise Tag...but you are right: it will be Dre. 

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7 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

Yeah, the Pack makes the most sense for him. Born and bred cheesehead. They are losing their RG anyway.

It sucks when you're a fan of another team, but as a diehard Bengals fan, it would be very tempting for me to want to play for the team I grew up loving. I wore Fulcher's "33" in college, how cool would it be to wear the REAL #33.

As a Bengals fan, I hate it. As a human being, I'm all "Good for you bro!"

Now, if he leaves us over simple dollars and cents, (Or being allowed to take home cases of Gatorade) then f that greedy a-hole and his gold-digging wife. I hope you play in Cleveland you taint sniffing douche.

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