Started looking at our recent drafts....

[TheBeaverHunter]

I think we all have been pretty confident about the Bengals' drafts and how they have become known as a good drafting team.  I went back and looked at our drafts and really we haven't drafted that well since the AJ/Dalton draft.  Here is our drafts and their stats since entering the league.  Two of our strongest picks are no longer with the team.  Thoughts?

 

[omgdrdoom]

The 2012 draft was amazing. Great starting CB1, upper tier RG, good WR2/3, top tier WR2/fringe WR1, AND a good to great safety all in the same draft. Oh and that's not even mentioning a guy named Vontaze Burfict that everyone may have heard of, grabbed him as a UDFA that same year. You can't really ask for much better than that in a NFL draft class. Go back in NFL history and you'll have a tough time finding a lot of rookie classes that can rival the talent we got in 2012. Whether we retained the guys or not after their initial contract has nothing to do with whether we're a good drafting team or not. That becomes a whole different issue at that point.

 

2013 was pretty good to land 3 higher quality starting caliber players out of it. 2014 was definitely worse unless Dennard or Clarke completely break out this year, Bodine and Hill aren't what I'd call good starters but they're not bad. 2015 was basically a trainwreck, Fisher is probably the best of the bunch and none of those later round guys have turned into great role players or situational guys. I know everyone loves Josh Shaw but I view him as a medium backup at best.

 

2016 is tough to call so soon but WJIII, Boyd, Billings, and Vigil all seem like they could be guys that "start" (or play a lot of snaps) for our team for the foreseeable future. 4 hits is a nice draft class even if they all aren't superstars.

 

So yeah, I don't think it's a myth that we're a pretty good drafting football team. IMO the issue is with our lack of free agency activity along with not always retaining the right players after their rookie contracts expire. Nobody is going to make the right decisions 100% of the time, I'm just pointing out that if you're going to pick on the team for something, it probably shouldn't be for drafting.

[turningpoint]

I don't think you can call 2015 a trainwreck yet, I think it's kind of will someone get to the gate switcher in time to save the train from colliding. if Cedo can help Fisher push the gate switcher, I think you call that draft a success. Meaning if Cedo and Fischer turn out to be some decent Tackles this year, that draft is B draft. I also like Uzomah, hardison and Derron Smith, got to give it one more year on these guys. Draft is currently an incomplete.

[omgdrdoom]

43 minutes ago, turningpoint said:

I don't think you can call 2015 a trainwreck yet, I think it's kind of will someone get to the gate switcher in time to save the train from colliding. if Cedo can help Fisher push the gate switcher, I think you call that draft a success. Meaning if Cedo and Fischer turn out to be some decent Tackles this year, that draft is B draft. I also like Uzomah, hardison and Derron Smith, got to give it one more year on these guys. Draft is currently an incomplete.

2015 is a trainwreck so far, but I won't say there isn't room for improvement. A lot of people considered Dre Kirkpatrick a bust for the first couple of years but he turned out to be pretty damn good, but I don't see that happening with Ogbuehi myself.

 

Kroft, Uzomah, Hardison, Smith, Dawson, Shaw, Alford....meh. I'm willing to give it even more than 1 year as some young players have turned the switch on later than others in the past, I'm just not going to say this draft class is a big question mark since we've seen these guys for 2 years now. It was our only "bad" draft class recently but that could change within the next 1-3 years.

 

Look at 2014, if you asked me a year ago I'd probably have given 2014 a lot worse of a grade but since Bodine actually stepped up and improved last year I don't consider that class of picks a disaster. It's definitely not a good year of drafting unless Clarke or Dennard make some noise this season though.

 

I don't think it takes a genius to see that 2014-2015 were weak years drafting when compared to 2011, 2012, 2013, and the potential of 2016. I believe most of us could agree on that at least.

[T-Dub]

Again, it's only a preseason depth chart, but Dennard is currently listed as a 3rd string RCB.  Preseason or no, that's not where you expect to see a former 1st round draft pick in their 4th year.

 

Maybe we should stop drafting injured players in the first round?

[omgdrdoom]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

Again, it's only a preseason depth chart, but Dennard is currently listed as a 3rd string RCB.  Preseason or no, that's not where you expect to see a former 1st round draft pick in their 4th year.

 

Maybe we should stop drafting injured players in the first round?

I can agree with that, but to be fair, I feel like some of our 1st round CB picks were thinking of the future and not the present (at the time of course).

 

I didn't think any of our CBs were bad picks, just unfortunate how they've all had injury issues whether those issues came before or after the draft happened. It's a bummer how Dennard just doesn't seem very good, but on the bright side WJIII locked his side of the field down in the last preseason game. It's just preseason, but he's looking to be as advertised. Dre Kirkpatrick + WJIII could be our starting CB tandem for years to come. Just need to find a good SCB that isn't a close to retirement Pacman.

[|westside bengal|]

3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

Again, it's only a preseason depth chart, but Dennard is currently listed as a 3rd string RCB.  Preseason or no, that's not where you expect to see a former 1st round draft pick in their 4th year.

 

Maybe we should stop drafting injured players in the first round?

and don't forget that the Bengals picked up his 5th year option of $8 million which is guaranteed for injury.

[T-Dub]

4 hours ago, westside bengal said:

and don't forget that the Bengals picked up his 5th year option of $8 million which is guaranteed for injury.

 

Are teams not able to renegotiate option years? I can't see him testing free agency as much of a concern as I doubt anyone else would've offered him more than half that money.

[|westside bengal|]

28 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Are teams not able to renegotiate option years? I can't see him testing free agency as much of a concern as I doubt anyone else would've offered him more than half that money.

I dont think they can renegotiate...and his salary is based on playing and draft position.  If he is on opening day roster he gets paid.  Maybe they can release him before opening day.

 

[T-Dub]

8 hours ago, westside bengal said:

I dont think they can renegotiate...and his salary is based on playing and draft position.  If he is on opening day roster he gets paid.  Maybe they can release him before opening day.

 

I'm wondering why they didn't pass on the option year and bring him back as a FA for 2-3 mil tops.  He's not a starter and can't stay on the field. 

[omgdrdoom]

5 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

I'm wondering why they didn't pass on the option year and bring him back as a FA for 2-3 mil tops.  He's not a starter and can't stay on the field. 

Well, there's not much of a reason to not put the option on him right now. The option year is 2018, he's still on his original rookie deal right now. 

 

5th year options can't be negotiated and can't include bonuses or anything, they're as-is with a formula set by the league. 

 

Once we put the option on Dennard that $8M became guaranteed for injury only but only becomes fully guaranteed if he's on our final roster for opening day NEXT year. 

 

Aka, if he balls out this year we control him for a 5th season at a bargain for a CB and if he continues his struggles we let him walk and owe him nothing. In theory at least. 

[T-Dub]

3 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Well, there's not much of a reason to not put the option on him right now. The option year is 2018, he's still on his original rookie deal right now. 

 

5th year options can't be negotiated and can't include bonuses or anything, they're as-is with a formula set by the league. 

 

Once we put the option on Dennard that $8M became guaranteed for injury only but only becomes fully guaranteed if he's on our final roster for opening day NEXT year. 

 

Aka, if he balls out this year we control him for a 5th season at a bargain for a CB and if he continues his struggles we let him walk and owe him nothing. In theory at least. 

 

I see, that makes much more sense.  Wouldn't be entirely surprised to see him cut this year, let alone next. 

[omgdrdoom]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

I see, that makes much more sense.  Wouldn't be entirely surprised to see him cut this year, let alone next. 

I would be completely surprised to see him cut this year. He only has a cap hit of $2.5M in 2017 and has just over $1M in dead money tied up in that. We roll with 5-6 CBs and Dennard is definitely one of the top 5-6 on the team even though he isn't great or anything. He's going to have to play very well this year in the snaps he sees (like in week 1 especially with Pacman suspended) to earn that roster spot next year. Or he might just stick around due to the fact that Jones isn't getting any younger. I can't see them paying $8M unless he's going to be a "starter" though whether he's the SCB or whatever they do with him.

 

I don't know, there's a lot of discussion that could be had about the guy and our entire group of CBs right now too actually. WJIII, Dre, and Dennard are all guys that are better outside CBs but someone has to play the slot. Jones is probably designated to the slot this year if I had to guess (assuming WJIII is ready to go as a full time starter), but the coaching staff has been really trying to jam Dennard into that role. Dre Kirk missed a game or two last year and Dennard started on the outside and actually looked decent in that game, but then they tried to crowbar him into the slot toward the end of the year and he was getting beat up pretty badly over the middle of the field.

 

I could be completely wrong but I feel like no matter who we have in the slot in 2018 that it's going to be a guy better suited for the perimeter positions. Hopefully Jones holds up to man that role in 2017 but I'm sure we'll see plenty of Darqueze seeing as the coaches will want to see what he's got if it's an 8 million dollar decision to make regarding him in the offseason.

[LostInDaJungle]

So, what are the rates for other NFL teams for games started by draftees, draftees still with the team, etc... If we don't draft well, then we must be lagging behind in those categories, no? It seems to me like there's an air of "Not every single one of them is a starter by now, bad draft!" attitude here.

Dennard shouldn't be a #3 CB? Well,  when you draft 3 guys in 4 years, one of them has to be, at best, the #3 CB. Do we ding Dennard for not being able to beat out other first round picks, or do we wonder about Bodine who was handed his job and never had to outplay anyone for it?

 

2015 - We drafted 2 starting OT's. Kroft, Shaw, and Uzomah have all played significant snaps for us. I think most teams would still be happy with that draft.

In short, every team drafts a Teddy Bridgewater at some point and that same team takes Christian Ponder at some point as well. They draft a J.J. Watt and turn around a few years later and draft Jadaveon Clowney. And the media will continue to praise the Seahawks for "drafting well" as long as Sherman is a 5th round pick who panned out. They will continue to ignore that Seattle hasn't had a first round pick since the Carter administration due to trades for guys like Percy Harvin.

[inkblot]

2012=obvi great
Hell 2013 was good.. Eifert, Gio, Williams, and Burkhead. Seems like hawkinson and tj johnson weren't bad picks either
2014 is a little weak but Hill was a beast his rookie year Clarke ain't bad, Bodine for better or worse is still our starter..McCarron is apparently valued higher than a 5th rd pick and we got some value picks with Flowers and Wright
2015 may not be a bust after all.. we'll see
2016 ain't that bad either
We draft pretty well imo.. I think we need to do work in other areas of the offseason/personnel like keeping/letting go of the right players and in free agency

[inkblot]

2012=obvi great
Hell 2013 was good.. Eifert, Gio, Williams, and Burkhead. Seems like hawkinson and tj johnson weren't bad picks either
2014 is a little weak but Hill was a beast his rookie year Clarke ain't bad, Bodine for better or worse is still our starter..McCarron is apparently valued higher than a 5th rd pick and we got some value picks with Flowers and Wright
2015 may not be a bust after all.. we'll see
2016 ain't that bad either
We draft pretty well imo.. I think we need to do work in other areas of the offseason/personnel like keeping/letting go of the right players and in free agency

[Jamie_B]

Yeah Dennard isnt getting cut, especially with Williams getting hurt I expect to see us run more 1 Deep S with 3-4 CBs on the field depending on the package.

 

Also he looked pretty good in the Cheif's preseason game, hopefully that starts coming to fruition in regular season games. Plus with Pacman aging I would not be entirely surprised if we end up resigning him.

[omgdrdoom]

44 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

So, what are the rates for other NFL teams for games started by draftees, draftees still with the team, etc... If we don't draft well, then we must be lagging behind in those categories, no? It seems to me like there's an air of "Not every single one of them is a starter by now, bad draft!" attitude here.

Dennard shouldn't be a #3 CB? Well,  when you draft 3 guys in 4 years, one of them has to be, at best, the #3 CB. Do we ding Dennard for not being able to beat out other first round picks, or do we wonder about Bodine who was handed his job and never had to outplay anyone for it?

 

2015 - We drafted 2 starting OT's. Kroft, Shaw, and Uzomah have all played significant snaps for us. I think most teams would still be happy with that draft.

In short, every team drafts a Teddy Bridgewater at some point and that same team takes Christian Ponder at some point as well. They draft a J.J. Watt and turn around a few years later and draft Jadaveon Clowney. And the media will continue to praise the Seahawks for "drafting well" as long as Sherman is a 5th round pick who panned out. They will continue to ignore that Seattle hasn't had a first round pick since the Carter administration due to trades for guys like Percy Harvin.

I think it's being disingenuous of you to essentially put all "starters" in the same pool and use that as the criteria for a draft being a bust or not. Not all starters are equal. I'll take 1 Carlos Dunlap over 7 Cedric Ogbuehis anyday. I don't care that Kroft and Uzomah have been forced to play for us, they haven't been good whatsoever (yet at least).

 

Darqueze hasn't been very good, my beef with him isn't that he's low on the depth chart as much as it's why he's lower than others on the depth chart. There's a huge difference between being beaten out by better players and not playing very well. I think he would be an OK outside CB to be honest but we're crowded on the outside at the moment. They're trying to make him be a slot CB and if that's where I'll have to rank him then he's going to be pretty low on that ranking with how he's performed as the primary SCB.

 

I do believe the Bengals draft better than a lot of teams, but it's not because we've given Cedric Ogbuehi, Tyler Kroft, and Russell Bodine more snaps than most good teams would have. We're a good drafting team because like you mentioned in your last paragraph, EVERY team misses a lot in the NFL draft, it's just the way it goes. Our 2012-2013 drafts were great but you don't have to die on the "2015 was a good draft" hill to proclaim that we're a good drafting team. Unless Ced miraculously turns the corner along with 1 of the late round guys making some noise, that was a BAD draft class, but that doesn't mean we suck at drafting because even the best teams miss sometimes.

[LostInDaJungle]

32 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I think it's being disingenuous of you to essentially put all "starters" in the same pool and use that as the criteria for a draft being a bust or not. Not all starters are equal. I'll take 1 Carlos Dunlap over 7 Cedric Ogbuehis anyday.

So, what's the criteria then? We all know pro-bowls are more about who's playing in the national games and "team success". (Dunlap replaced Clowney due to injury. LOL.) We can't judge by number of starters... Are we down to "We don't draft well because I say so?"

Are we going to follow the media narrative of "The Patriots draft well because 1 6th rounder turned out to be a great QB." "The Seahawks draft well because Richard Sherman was a 5th round pick."

We have such a talented roster that Andy Dalton could be replaced by any stiff off the street, but then we don't draft well enough and all of our starters suck. It's really hard to keep up with what direction the manic is swinging on this board any given day.

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Dennard shouldn't be a #3 CB? Well,  when you draft 3 guys in 4 years, one of them has to be, at best, the #3 CB. 

 

To clarify, he's not the #3 CB or slot corner, he's the 3rd string RCB behind Pac and WJ3.  In other words, going with the LCB as the #1 spot, he is at best the #6 CB behind Shaw and Benwikere. 

[omgdrdoom]

19 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

So, what's the criteria then? We all know pro-bowls are more about who's playing in the national games and "team success". (Dunlap replaced Clowney due to injury. LOL.) We can't judge by number of starters... Are we down to "We don't draft well because I say so?"

Are we going to follow the media narrative of "The Patriots draft well because 1 6th rounder turned out to be a great QB." "The Seahawks draft well because Richard Sherman was a 5th round pick."

We have such a talented roster that Andy Dalton could be replaced by any stiff off the street, but then we don't draft well enough and all of our starters suck. It's really hard to keep up with what direction the manic is swinging on this board any given day.

I think it would be more fair to direct some of that to a person saying we don't draft well. I, on the other hand, believe we're one of the better teams in the league at drafting in the past 5-ish years. I just don't think "# of starts" is all you can look at. A lot of arguments DO boil down to "because I said so" because there aren't concrete facts otherwise, it's a lot of opinion with some facts behind them at the end of the day.

 

"The Bengals 2015 draft class sucks so far" and "The Bengals are a very good drafting team" aren't mutually exclusive, in fact, I firmly believe both to be very true. If there's nothing else you care about in my post, please at least understand that point as that's my main argument here. Missing 1 or 2 out of 5-7 drafts isn't too shabby. You don't have to try to defend every draft class of ours to believe we're a good drafting team. As of right this second, our 2015 draft class is pretty damn bad and 2014 isn't shaping up to be all that great either, but oh well since I'm sure we'll recover from it hitting so much around them.

 

18 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

To clarify, he's not the #3 CB or slot corner, he's the 3rd string RCB behind Pac and WJ3.  In other words, going with the LCB as the #1 spot, he is at best the #6 CB behind Shaw and Benwikere. 

That's not very fair either.

 

The slot CB is pretty much it's own starting position with how often teams are in nickel and dime packages and they seem to be jamming Dennard into either the 1 or 2 position at the slot while also being able to backup the perimeter spots. There isn't a slot CB or slot WR on the official depth chart which means you have to dig a little deeper to see the truth as to who is buried behind other guys and who they just don't list an official position for.

[|westside bengal|]

going forward I think the argument will be...are the Bengals a good drafting team that had a couple of bad drafts or are they a bad to average drafting team that had a couple of great drafts?

[omgdrdoom]

2 minutes ago, westside bengal said:

going forward I think the argument will be...are the Bengals a good drafting team that had a couple of bad drafts or are they a bad to average drafting team that had a couple of great drafts?

2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 were all good to extremely good

2014 was meh with 1-2 more years to be proven wrong

2015 was very bad with 2-3 years to be proven wrong

2016 and 2017 are ??? thus far with both years having a lot of potential in them. If WJIII is close to advertised and Tyler Boyd keeps it up they'll have that draft class being a good one on their own

 

IMO it's easy to see the outliers if you're only looking at the recent past. If you want to ask if we're a good drafting team in the entire Lewis era then that could be a different story. It would take a lot more delving into other team's draft classes from 12 years ago that don't really matter that much right now if that's the case. Going back to the mid 2000's to now I'd put us up against most teams in the league when it comes to drafting, it's definitely other issues that are predominantly keeping us from going on a SB run.

[T-Dub]

30 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

That's not very fair either.

 

The slot CB is pretty much it's own starting position with how often teams are in nickel and dime packages and they seem to be jamming Dennard into either the 1 or 2 position at the slot while also being able to backup the perimeter spots. There isn't a slot CB or slot WR on the official depth chart which means you have to dig a little deeper to see the truth as to who is buried behind other guys and who they just don't list an official position for.

 

Fair or not, he's behind at least 4 other players on the depth chart. Typically the slot corner is also the first backup at one or both of the outside spots.  IDK how much they're playing Dennard in the slot this preseason but I do know he's listed as 3rd string, not the 3rd corner.  That's directly from the team website, not my opinion.

 

 

[omgdrdoom]

19 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Fair or not, he's behind at least 4 other players on the depth chart. Typically the slot corner is also the first backup at one or both of the outside spots.  IDK how much they're playing Dennard in the slot this preseason but I do know he's listed as 3rd string, not the 3rd corner.  That's directly from the team website, not my opinion.

 

 

All I'm saying is WR and CB spots on the depth chart have more to figure out within them than the average position. I'm no big Dennard defender I'm just not so sure Benwikere is ahead of Dennard in projected play time or anything due to the depth chart being set up the way it is. Benwikere may not even make the team while Dennard is all but a lock at this point.