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Is the Bengals offensive line really that bad?


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7 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Curious - Who is reputable to you that grades O-Line play and makes that information public?

 

I like http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ for that sort of thing, they're fairly transparent and honest about outliers & flaws in their methods.   Really though I don't know how you grade an OL on a play-by-play basis without knowing their assignments. 

 

I think sacks allowed & yards/carry are a solid indicator of line play without all that micro 1.3 on this play, -0.7 on the next stuff.  If a team is good in both categories they've probably got a good line.  Ours is only good in one (until recently), which people like to think means we have a great pass-blocking OL that is mediocre in run production.  I say the 3-step offense we run hides a very average group overall.  

 

The one thing I'm certain of with these "advanced metrics" is that you can't fully understand a team sport with a spreadsheet.  

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2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I like http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ for that sort of thing, they're fairly transparent and honest about outliers & flaws in their methods.   Really though I don't know how you grade an OL on a play-by-play basis without knowing their assignments. 

 

I think sacks allowed & yards/carry are a solid indicator of line play without all that micro 1.3 on this play, -0.7 on the next stuff.  If a team is good in both categories they've probably got a good line.  Ours is only good in one (until recently), which people like to think means we have a great pass-blocking OL that is mediocre in run production.  I say the 3-step offense we run hides a very average group overall.  

 

The one thing I'm certain of with these "advanced metrics" is that you can't fully understand a team sport with a spreadsheet.  

Well Football Outsiders doesn't rank individual players, so how would Fred look up the 9 guys we drafted in the first three rounds over 20 years? Any aggregate rank would be a by product of us having undrafted guys starting, refusing to pay Guards well, etc...

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Early returns are not looking promising for the line.  Won't get easier with Watt, Mercilus, and Clowney coming to town.

 

Might consider Andre at RT and Fisher at LT, unless Ced shows signs of life in the next couple weeks.

 

Shame Hopkins blew out his knee.  I would guess this opens the door for Westerman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Early returns are not looking promising for the line.  Won't get easier with Watt, Mercilus, and Clowney coming to town.

 

Might consider Andre at RT and Fisher at LT, unless Ced shows signs of life in the next couple weeks.

 

Shame Hopkins blew out his knee.  I would guess this opens the door for Westerman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It just keeps getting better. 

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Speaking of PFF, they ranked the offensive lines going in to the season. As I've watched games over this weekend I have noticed one very obvious and unsurprising trend. Teams with what many consider (including PFF) to be some of the worst offensive lines in the NFL struggled mightily in Week #1 and failed to put up points and therefore a fight in their game...

 

PFF Pre-Season Offensive Line Rankings

32. Seattle (9 Points)

31. Cincinnati (0 Points)

30. Tampa Bay (Didn't Play)

29. Houston (7 Points)

28. New York Giants (3 Points)

27. San Francisco (3 Points)

 

22 Points combined from 5 of PFF's bottom 6 Offensive Lines. I am not trying to turn this to a PPF thread (I am not actually a huge believer in them) but, this really illustrates what many already know. If you have no offensive line you will struggle to score, run the ball, hold time of possession and will likely be a losing team. 

 

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The Bengals tried to defy common knowledge by taking a guy who couldn't play RT and put him at LT. 

 

Ced should be on the bench, this coaching staff stubbornness when it comes to under performing players is bush league.

 

Most competent HC would have pulled Dalton but Mediocre Marvin stuck with one he brought to the dance.... loser.

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3 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

The Bengals tried to defy common knowledge by taking a guy who couldn't play RT and put him at LT. 

 

Ced should be on the bench, this coaching staff stubbornness when it comes to under performing players is bush league.

 

Most competent HC would have pulled Dalton but Mediocre Marvin stuck with one he brought to the dance.... loser.

Sounds a lot like poor management from the top.

 

You spend all that time selling management on a guy to draft in the first round and then you have to make him work or it's your ass.  Alexander probably doesn't have a choice. 

 

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was watching the Vikings play tonight and it made me sad.. They actually went out and spent some money on the o-line this offseason....and drafted Eilfein (to play center) in the 2nd..

I know the Saints suck, but Bradford looked amazing having all day to throw it, and a rookie RB (Cook) running like crazy..

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11 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

Sounds a lot like poor management from the top.

 

You spend all that time selling management on a guy to draft in the first round and then you have to make him work or it's your ass.  Alexander probably doesn't have a choice. 

 

But you don't compound a mistake by refusing to acknowledge it and rectify it. Ced's level of play has been a problem for a full calendar year and the coaches did nothing but move him from RT to LT..... what logical coach takes a guy who can't play RT and gives him the starting LT position without him having to earn it through competing.

 

To me this is the biggest failure/ mistake of Marvin's coaching career. The way he coddles and makes excuses for guys like Ced and Pacman, it's pathetic and doesn't send the right message to the rest of the players. It breeds undisciplined players that are not accountable for their actions on and off the field.

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47 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

To me this is the biggest failure/ mistake of Marvin's coaching career. The way he coddles and makes excuses for guys like Ced and Pacman, it's pathetic and doesn't send the right message to the rest of the players. It breeds undisciplined players that are not accountable for their actions on and off the field.

 

I agree, but remember what happened when he tried to cut Chris Henry.  The Redeemer stepped in and effectively castrated his HC, even after Marv stated publicly he didn't want Henry on the team.  Then they let Whit leave and now the voice of the locker room is some angry man-child that can't control himself on or off the field.  This team doesn't respect Marvin and it shows.

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2 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

But you don't compound a mistake by refusing to acknowledge it and rectify it. Ced's level of play has been a problem for a full calendar year and the coaches did nothing but move him from RT to LT..... what logical coach takes a guy who can't play RT and gives him the starting LT position without him having to earn it through competing.

 

To me this is the biggest failure/ mistake of Marvin's coaching career. The way he coddles and makes excuses for guys like Ced and Pacman, it's pathetic and doesn't send the right message to the rest of the players. It breeds undisciplined players that are not accountable for their actions on and off the field.

The problem is that Mikey's not a big fan of cutting his losses. Literally. To move on from Ced would be wasting money and worse, admitting that he fucked up by drafting him. I'm not saying he's cheap, but he's shrewd and will keep Ced until his contract runs out or one of them dies.

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7 minutes ago, Hooky said:

The problem is that Mikey's not a big fan of cutting his losses. Literally. To move on from Ced would be wasting money and worse, admitting that he fucked up by drafting him. I'm not saying he's cheap, but he's shrewd and will keep Ced until his contract runs out or one of them dies.

"God dammit, we're paying him like a first round draft pick - He's a starter no matter what. Now make it work."

I've had bosses like that.

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Not a Mavin fan but there is no way he wanted to enter this season with Ced starting.  Marvin isn't blind and there has been zero evidence to suggest Ced is an NFL starter. No way he wanted Whit to leave either since he was the team leader.

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

Not a Mavin fan but there is no way he wanted to enter this season with Ced starting.  Marvin isn't blind and there has been zero evidence to suggest Ced is an NFL starter. No way he wanted Whit to leave either since he was the team leader.

I also think this is true.

 

Coming into this season Ogbuehi had never had a healthy training camp, and once the season begins there are practically zero live snaps in pract9ice to get a college player used to the NFL game.  I had hope that a complete training camp would help get Cedric up to speed, but it does not look like that helped very much.  I also think this is why they stuck with Ced in the starting lineup so long last year.  They anticipated that he would get better with more live snaps.

 

But when you look at Alexanders incredible record with high draft picks (not a single flop in over 20 years as O-line coach before '15), I can kind of understand why Marvin and/or the front office would have confidence in Ogbuehi.

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21 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Not a Mavin fan but there is no way he wanted to enter this season with Ced starting.  Marvin isn't blind and there has been zero evidence to suggest Ced is an NFL starter. No way he wanted Whit to leave either since he was the team leader.

 

Saying it's Alexander & The Redeemer keeping him on the field?

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14 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Saying it's Alexander & The Redeemer keeping him on the field?

Well, I think it would be saying that MB is the one who ultimately decided to not offer Whit the contract for more than 1 year and who also made the decision to completely ignore LT in free agency and the draft. Marvin really doesn't have much of a choice right now, do we even have an actual LT on the roster other than Ced (who I don't even consider an actual LT himself to be honest)?

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43 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Well, I think it would be saying that MB is the one who ultimately decided to not offer Whit the contract for more than 1 year and who also made the decision to completely ignore LT in free agency and the draft. Marvin really doesn't have much of a choice right now, do we even have an actual LT on the roster other than Ced (who I don't even consider an actual LT himself to be honest)?

Yeah, I think this is accurate and very unfortunate. There are some positions on the field you can get away with having lesser talent at but Left Tackle isn't one of them.  I thing you are right, I don't see anyone else on the roster who can play LT.  Do you move Fisher there and Andre Smith to RT?  Smith looks done to me.  That is a huge reach but is that our only other option?  Are we going to need to go to 2 TE sets to protect Andy?

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I don't know why people who watch so much football are always fooled. It doesn't matter how many John Ross's or Joe Mixon's you draft if you have 5 Mary's as offensive linemen.

 

Why does Pittsburgh anally assault us every single year? It isn't because Leveon Bell is Walter Payton and the Raper is Johnny Unitas. It's because they kick the shit out of our guys in both trenches for 60 minutes in almost every game. Guys like Willie fucking Parker and Jordan fucking Todman don't gash us because they're any good. They do it because their O-Line mauls at the point of attack. 

 

You wanna win consistently? Have a good O-Line and D-Line. Stop picking fucking cornerbacks in the first round every other year!! They mean nothing if you don't get pressure. Stop picking fucking RB's in round 2 every single year!!! They mean nothing without a line that can open huge holes for them!

 

the fact that Russell Bodine is allowed to start on this team 4 straight years shows you the mental illlness that pervades the coaches offices at PBS. He would not play on ANY other team in the league. 

 

The fact that Will Clarke can get picked in the 3rd round (they wanted to pick him in the 2nd) only because he's from Pennsylvania and his dad was good friends with Jay Hayes is a travesty for a professional organization. BTW guess which team was the only one who would pick him up. 

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19 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

the fact that Russell Bodine is allowed to start on this team 4 straight years shows you the mental illlness that pervades the coaches offices at PBS. He would not play on ANY other team in the league.

This just is not true at all.

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2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Saying it's Alexander & The Redeemer keeping him on the field?

I would say it's probably a combination of Alexander and Duke Tobin.  Those two were probably who sold Oogie-Boogie to The Family.  They either don't have courage and/or political capital to tell them they screwed up. 

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23 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

The fact that Will Clarke can get picked in the 3rd round (they wanted to pick him in the 2nd) only because he's from Pennsylvania and his dad was good friends with Jay Hayes is a travesty for a professional organization. BTW guess which team was the only one who would pick him up. 

Plenty of people had Will Clarke ranked as a third round pick and it had nothing to do with Pennsylvania or his dad.

 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=92280&draftyear=2014&genpos=DE

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014DE.php

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2014/4/23/5644966/cowboys-draft-2014-scouting-will-clarke

 

Mike Mayock actually had him ranked higher (#73) than where the Bengals took him (#88)  http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000346744/article/2014-nfl-draft-mike-mayocks-top-100-prospects

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

I don't know why people who watch so much football are always fooled. It doesn't matter how many John Ross's or Joe Mixon's you draft if you have 5 Mary's as offensive linemen.

 

Why does Pittsburgh anally assault us every single year? It isn't because Leveon Bell is Walter Payton and the Raper is Johnny Unitas. It's because they kick the shit out of our guys in both trenches for 60 minutes in almost every game. Guys like Willie fucking Parker and Jordan fucking Todman don't gash us because they're any good. They do it because their O-Line mauls at the point of attack. 

 

You wanna win consistently? Have a good O-Line and D-Line. Stop picking fucking cornerbacks in the first round every other year!! They mean nothing if you don't get pressure. Stop picking fucking RB's in round 2 every single year!!! They mean nothing without a line that can open huge holes for them!

 

the fact that Russell Bodine is allowed to start on this team 4 straight years shows you the mental illlness that pervades the coaches offices at PBS. He would not play on ANY other team in the league. 

 

The fact that Will Clarke can get picked in the 3rd round (they wanted to pick him in the 2nd) only because he's from Pennsylvania and his dad was good friends with Jay Hayes is a travesty for a professional organization. BTW guess which team was the only one who would pick him up. 

Good points.  When is the last time the Stealers had a CB that was impressive?  Yet, they win.  We take a CB every other year in the first round, sit them on the bench for three years,

 

As rough as Bodine is think of his predecessor. 

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