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How far can Andy Dalton take the Bengals?


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20 minutes ago, SF2 said:

 I would rather have consistently good QB play then what Ken Anderson brought to the table.  2 playoff wins in 16 years is nothing to write home about.  If you simply remove the one Superbowl year his career was very forgettable.  Kerry Collins had a similar career.

Yep, and the Bengals tried many other options, yet Kenny continued to be the best one for some odd reason. Always the guy who wasn't supposed to be there but... Cook was injured, Thompson was injured, etc... And Kenny was just there.

I don't know if you've seen the Twitter image going around about how Dalton has done under Gruden, Hue, and Zampese, but the basic argument is that Dalton has largely played the same under all of them.

QB-OC-Andy-Dalton2.thumb.png.d0635a1cf29c82e762698eb9a7a9ec86.png

Meh, found this image. There's one that's just stats. But you get the point. Andy had a really good year in 2015.

He was even good under Zampese. The problem was that Zampese couldn't find the end zone. Throughout 2016 he was questioned about red zone decisions, in games that ended up being decided by missed kicks. That's the difference between 10-6, and 6-9-1. The offensive numbers were even decent... In a year when they kept juggling RT's because Ced sucked.

If Jesus Christ had a threesome with Peyton Manning and Brett Favre, they could not be Tom Brady behind this offensive line we have today. I have nothing against AJ McCarron.

People have a right to give in to their emotion, Dalton's only an average QB who's durable and consistent. He's not one of those lightning in a bottle one in a generation talents. AJ McCarron is? The last 30 years haven't taught us to have some appreciation for a guy who "just" makes the Pro Bowl as an alternate? Who only manages to keep playing all 16 games "just" well enough to get us to the playoffs 5 years in a row?

Anderson got a lot better with Munoz protecting his blindside. He got a lot better when Chris Collinsworth started going long. He was better before Bill Walsh took a Head Coaching gig...

History is going to be kind to Dalton for one reason - Competent QB play is damn hard to come by. Ask the 90's about it. Andy Dalton doesn't suck... Andy Dalton has had some bad games. We figured it would be a train wreck when we lost Whit and Z... What the hell was everyone expecting? The offense line was going to be horrible without our two best players, but the QB play was till going to be the best in the league? We expected that Andy would have no time to throw, but that he'd still be completing 29 out of 33 every Sunday?

One day in the future, when we're wading through a string of Frerotte to Smith to Kitna disasters that nets us the #1 pick so we can go out an get a Carson Palmer and hope he's not a Johnny Football, we will look back very kindly on Andy Dalton. It's not obvious to anyone that AJ McCarron has more upside... He was the also ran in the Jimmy Garropolo sweepstakes during FA rumor time. Wanting to bench Kenny Anderson for Turk Schonert so early in the season? Kenny's best year started off with him getting benched after a half and not getting to play again until week 3. We've lost one division game. The sky hasn't fallen yet.

Dalton deserves the benefit of the doubt, and unless you're positive that AJ McCarron is Tom Brady, it's lame to criticize Dalton for not being Tom Brady and suggest we bench the guy because McCarron has some mystical "clutch" thing we just haven't seen yet.

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46 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Anderson had all but 15 of his career starts between '72 and '83.  In those 12 seasons he finished in the top 10 in passer rating 9 times and only had 4 seasons with a losing record as a starter.  He did have some down years, but very few QBs have been more consistent than that.

Would you say it's fair that he was a mediorce QB... Top 15 but not Joe Namath, who had one or two years that were outliers for both good and bad?  Much like Dalton has been? That Anderson doesn't get the respect he should because the team around him often times wasn't good enough? A guy who didn't win a playoff game until he was a 10 year vet of the league?

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23 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Yep, and the Bengals tried many other options, yet Kenny continued to be the best one for some odd reason. Always the guy who wasn't supposed to be there but... Cook was injured, Thompson was injured, etc... And Kenny was just there.

I don't know if you've seen the Twitter image going around about how Dalton has done under Gruden, Hue, and Zampese, but the basic argument is that Dalton has largely played the same under all of them.

QB-OC-Andy-Dalton2.thumb.png.d0635a1cf29c82e762698eb9a7a9ec86.png

Meh, found this image. There's one that's just stats. But you get the point. Andy had a really good year in 2015.

He was even good under Zampese. The problem was that Zampese couldn't find the end zone. Throughout 2016 he was questioned about red zone decisions, in games that ended up being decided by missed kicks. That's the difference between 10-6, and 6-9-1. The offensive numbers were even decent... In a year when they kept juggling RT's because Ced sucked.

If Jesus Christ had a threesome with Peyton Manning and Brett Favre, they could not be Tom Brady behind this offensive line we have today. I have nothing against AJ McCarron.

People have a right to give in to their emotion, Dalton's only an average QB who's durable and consistent. He's not one of those lightning in a bottle one in a generation talents. AJ McCarron is? The last 30 years haven't taught us to have some appreciation for a guy who "just" makes the Pro Bowl as an alternate? Who only manages to keep playing all 16 games "just" well enough to get us to the playoffs 5 years in a row?

Anderson got a lot better with Munoz protecting his blindside. He got a lot better when Chris Collinsworth started going long. He was better before Bill Walsh took a Head Coaching gig...

History is going to be kind to Dalton for one reason - Competent QB play is damn hard to come by. Ask the 90's about it. Andy Dalton doesn't suck... Andy Dalton has had some bad games. We figured it would be a train wreck when we lost Whit and Z... What the hell was everyone expecting? The offense line was going to be horrible without our two best players, but the QB play was till going to be the best in the league? We expected that Andy would have no time to throw, but that he'd still be completing 29 out of 33 every Sunday?

One day in the future, when we're wading through a string of Frerotte to Smith to Kitna disasters that nets us the #1 pick so we can go out an get a Carson Palmer and hope he's not a Johnny Football, we will look back very kindly on Andy Dalton. It's not obvious to anyone that AJ McCarron has more upside... He was the also ran in the Jimmy Garropolo sweepstakes during FA rumor time. Wanting to bench Kenny Anderson for Turk Schonert so early in the season? Kenny's best year started off with him getting benched after a half and not getting to play again until week 3. We've lost one division game. The sky hasn't fallen yet.

Dalton deserves the benefit of the doubt, and unless you're positive that AJ McCarron is Tom Brady, it's lame to criticize Dalton for not being Tom Brady and suggest we bench the guy because McCarron has some mystical "clutch" thing we just haven't seen yet.

Well said sir. 👍

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  • 1 month later...

Andy Dalton seems to hate throwing to any other WR that's not AJ green ... the targets for all of the other WRs suck, if AJ green isnt kinda open he throws it away immediately

Unless the play is a quick pass to the TE or the RB, it's AJ green or throw it away

 

Can we give Gruden Dalton back and take Cousins? At least he will spread the ball around 

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5 hours ago, cassanos said:

Andy Dalton seems to hate throwing to any other WR that's not AJ green ... the targets for all of the other WRs suck, if AJ green isnt kinda open he throws it away immediately

Unless the play is a quick pass to the TE or the RB, it's AJ green or throw it away

 

Can we give Gruden Dalton back and take Cousins? At least he will spread the ball around 

Well, he will get his chance next Sunday since I doubt AJ Green will be around after his meltdown.  

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On 9/22/2017 at 4:44 PM, LostInDaJungle said:

Would you say it's fair that he was a mediorce QB... Top 15 but not Joe Namath, who had one or two years that were outliers for both good and bad? 

Ken Anderson lead the league in QB rating 4 times.  Only one other QB in history has done it more times (Steve Young).

 

When Anderson retired in 1986 he ranked 6th in career completion percentage, 7th in career passing yards, and 9th in lowest career interception percentage.  At that time Fran Tarkenton was the only other QB with 30,000 passing yards and 2,000 rushing yards.

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On 11/6/2017 at 1:34 AM, cassanos said:

Andy Dalton seems to hate throwing to any other WR that's not AJ green ... the targets for all of the other WRs suck, if AJ green isnt kinda open he throws it away immediately

Unless the play is a quick pass to the TE or the RB, it's AJ green or throw it away

 

Can we give Gruden Dalton back and take Cousins? At least he will spread the ball around 

 

Dalton has always liked to spread the ball around when he has other receivers getting open.

 

If Cousins were here he would be doing the exact same thing as Dalton until our other WRs start getting open.

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31 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

 

Dalton has always liked to spread the ball around when he has other receivers getting open.

 

If Cousins were here he would be doing the exact same thing as Dalton until our other WRs start getting open.

RECEIVING
NAME REC TAR YDS AVG TD LONG 20+ YDS/G FUM FUML YAC 1DN
A.J. Green 39 67 578 14.8 4 77 7 72.3 1 1 185 25
Tyler Kroft 25 29 287 11.5 3 59 3 35.9 0 0 76 15
Brandon LaFell 25 39 208 8.3 1 19 0 26.0 1 0 96 10
Joe Mixon 20 21 204 10.2 0 67 2 25.5 2 1 212 7
Giovani Bernard 12 20 158 13.2 2 61 2 19.8 0 0 168 5
Alex Erickson 6 9 96 16.0 0 37 2 12.0 0 0 14 4
Josh Malone 3 8 48 16.0 1 25 1 16.0 0 0 6 3
Tyler Eifert 4 5 46 11.5 0 22 1 23.0 0 0 11 2
Tyler Boyd 6 9 43 7.2 0 11 0 10.8 0 0 27 2
C.J. Uzomah 3 6 39 13.0 0 21 1 6.5 0 0 24 3
Jeremy Hill 4 4 16 4.0 0 10 0 2.3 0 0 30 1
Ryan Hewitt 1 1 16 16.0 0 16 0 3.2 0 0 3 1
Totals 148 236 1739 11.8 11 77 19 217.4 4 2 852 78
Opponents 157 264 1668 10.6 10 72 20 208.5 0 0 742 83

 

It seems AJ gets the Ball thrown to him a lot more, but he is the man, and when they do complete passes they seem to be more memorable, and the big plays.  I am surprised Kroft is targeted less than LaFell but is dominating LaFell.  Have we depended on LaFell a bit too much?  

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image.png.dfd81c3bd96b8fb0079e72b4a9c82da7.pngimage.png.1c76ab6a548868cc81a1648862e14911.pngimage.png.05f657247db7bafaad83eb777ebc33d4.png

 

 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

It's almost like teams that have an elite receiver tend to look at that receiver a lot more than the other guys.

 

Either that or DeShaun Watson, Ben Roethlisberger, and Matt Ryan all suck and can't read the field and spread the ball around either.

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On 9/22/2017 at 4:44 PM, LostInDaJungle said:

Would you say it's fair that he was a mediorce QB... Top 15 but not Joe Namath, who had one or two years that were outliers for both good and bad?  Much like Dalton has been? That Anderson doesn't get the respect he should because the team around him often times wasn't good enough? A guy who didn't win a playoff game until he was a 10 year vet of the league?

I am late to this conversation, but comparing Dalton to Anderson is novel, but off base.  Let me know when Dalton wins some passing titles.  Anderson has 4.  The only QB to win passing titles in the non-passing and passing eras.  Just go watch videos of Anderson and the Bengals on YouTube.  There are a few around.  The way he put the ball right on the money leaps out as compared to just about all the QBs today.  He didn't win enough to be an HOF QB, but that wasn't all on him.

 

I agree that Dalton is not a bad QB.  He hasn't proven to be all that good either.  To judge Dalton with the current cast of characters around him is not fair, but Dalton is not in Anderson's league.

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35 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

image.png.dfd81c3bd96b8fb0079e72b4a9c82da7.pngimage.png.1c76ab6a548868cc81a1648862e14911.pngimage.png.05f657247db7bafaad83eb777ebc33d4.png

 

 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

It's almost like teams that have an elite receiver tend to look at that receiver a lot more than the other guys.

 

Either that or DeShaun Watson, Ben Roethlisberger, and Matt Ryan all suck and can't read the field and spread the ball around either.

 

 

weird huh???

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6 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

I am late to this conversation, but comparing Dalton to Anderson is novel, but off base.  Let me know when Dalton wins some passing titles.  Anderson has 4.  The only QB to win passing titles in the non-passing and passing eras.  Just go watch videos of Anderson and the Bengals on YouTube.  There are a few around.  The way he put the ball right on the money leaps out as compared to just about all the QBs today.  He didn't win enough to be an HOF QB, but that wasn't all on him.

 

I agree that Dalton is not a bad QB.  He hasn't proven to be all that good either.  To judge Dalton with the current cast of characters around him is not fair, but Dalton is not in Anderson's league.

I'd say I agree with just about all of this.

 

On this board there seems to be more of an anti-Andy bias by the majority, so to a lot of people it seems as if I'm relentlessly defending the guy even though I just spend the time to debunk the typical BS claims about him. Andy has plenty of faults so it's annoying to see people bitching about stuff that just isn't true about him.

 

On the other hand, I've posted places where I was considered to be one of the anti-Andy guys. There's a message board around that you pretty much get run out of every conversation if you say the slightest negative thing about the guy, it's pretty wild.

 

We've seen Andy capable of being an above average QB when given a good pass blocking line and receivers, but I wouldn't mind if they actively tried to find a QB that can do more on his own. It's just not so easy finding Aaron Rodgers so you can't throw out the Andy Daltons of the league because then you're a terrible owner. No team cuts or trades a guy in his prime that's Andy Dalton caliber, you build around him and give him a good team to work with which we haven't done a great job of lately. Look at a team like the Lions, they had to give Stafford a billion dollars and he's no elite QB himself. You have to keep good but not great QBs around when you find them because even finding a decent to good starting caliber NFL QB isn't easy whatsoever.

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10 minutes ago, fluhartz said:

weird huh???

I honestly can't believe some of the stuff that has to be pointed out to people on sports message boards sometimes lol you'd think people that are big enough fans to regularly post at a place like this would pick up on some of this shit. Yeah, Andy targets A.J. Green a lot, but the same people would be bitching if he DIDN'T target A.J. Green a lot. You try to get the ball to your playmakers. We, unfortunately, don't have many of those right now.

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On 11/8/2017 at 8:31 AM, UncleEarl said:

I am late to this conversation, but comparing Dalton to Anderson is novel, but off base.  Let me know when Dalton wins some passing titles.  Anderson has 4.  The only QB to win passing titles in the non-passing and passing eras.  Just go watch videos of Anderson and the Bengals on YouTube.  There are a few around.  The way he put the ball right on the money leaps out as compared to just about all the QBs today.  He didn't win enough to be an HOF QB, but that wasn't all on him.

 

I agree that Dalton is not a bad QB.  He hasn't proven to be all that good either.  To judge Dalton with the current cast of characters around him is not fair, but Dalton is not in Anderson's league.

Anderson has 4 passing titles?  What is that based on,..QB rating?  I hope not because its a BS way to hand out titles.  Anderson had a great year in 1981. Dan Fouts outperformed him in every meaningful category to include yards (4802 vs 3754), TDs (33 to 29), yards per game (300.1 to 234.6) and net yards per passing attempt (7.43 to 7.17).  The one thing Fouts didn't do better was win AFC Championship games.  Sure, Kenny had the best passer rating but so did Steve Bartkowski in 1983 who threw 75 less yards per game as Fouts that year.

 

Not saying Kenny sucked but the passer rating thing can  be gamed by throwing short safe passes.  Kenny was a good QB for a long time which seems to be the way Dalton's career is going.   

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

What is that based on,..QB rating?  I hope not because its a BS way to hand out titles.

 

 

 

Not saying Kenny sucked but the passer rating thing can  be gamed by throwing short safe passes.

Pass efficiency rating is the best way to judge a QB.  Just because a QB throws the ball more often does not mean he is a better QB.  Your examples of Fouts and Anderson in 1981 prove this.  In 1981 Fouts attempted 130 more passes than Anderson.  Here is a comparison of Anderson's numbers for that season and what he would have had to do in with an additional 130 attempts to match Fouts.

 

Anderson season..................62.6 completion%...6.1 td%...2.1 int%

130 passes to match Fouts...46.2 completion%...3.1 td%...5.4 int%

 

So basically to be "as good as Fouts" Anderson would have had to suck really bad for an additional 130 attempts completing less than 50%  for half as many tds as usual and well over twice as many interceptions.  The only metric where Fouts outperformed Anderson was yards per attempt and it was by a very slim margin (7.9 to 7.8)

 

Since the passer rating takes into account yards per attempt and TD percentage it takes more than just "short safe passes" to have a high rating.

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15 minutes ago, fluhartz said:

both were great QB's back in the day..

 

Fouts out performs Kenny in being a mentally challenged football announcer..

I swear every time I watch a game with him I am amazed at how dumb that dude is

Indeed! Too many blows to the head I imagine.

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2 hours ago, SF2 said:

Anderson has 4 passing titles?  What is that based on,..QB rating?  I hope not because its a BS way to hand out titles.  Anderson had a great year in 1981. Dan Fouts outperformed him in every meaningful category to include yards (4802 vs 3754), TDs (33 to 29), yards per game (300.1 to 234.6) and net yards per passing attempt (7.43 to 7.17).  The one thing Fouts didn't do better was win AFC Championship games.  Sure, Kenny had the best passer rating but so did Steve Bartkowski in 1983 who threw 75 less yards per game as Fouts that year.

 

Not saying Kenny sucked but the passer rating thing can  be gamed by throwing short safe passes.  Kenny was a good QB for a long time which seems to be the way Dalton's career is going.   

I would also point out that Kenny played with Bill Walsh and was the very first "west coast" style QB. He was putting up more passing yards because he was in a passing system when the NFL was still 4 yards and a cloud of dust.

FWIW, Anderson had a career completion % of 59.3% compared to Dalton's 62.7%. In Anderson's first 6 years (71-76) he threw for 13,326 yards. Dalton has thrown for 22,214 (11-16). Comparing passing titles from the 70's to now is silly... Even before you get into the whole "It's also about who else was playing QB at the time." Dalton only has to beat Tom Brady and Arron Rodgers for that kind of thing... Anderson's competition was Dan Fouts?!? Dan Fouts, that guy you hear mentioned whenever people talk about the great QB's to play the game...  :7:

I'll happily stand by the comparison. And I'll reiterate that this rosy view we have of Kenny now was not the opinion of fans when he was playing. Kenny was benched in the second game of his Super Bowl season for Turk Schonert.

In 30 years we're going to be saying "You can't compare Doopsy McElroy to Andy Dalton!"

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20 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

 And I'll reiterate that this rosy view we have of Kenny now was not the opinion of fans when he was playing.

Fans opinion does not mean very much.  Many people around here claimed Justin Smith was garbage and would not start on any other team; Whitworth needed to be moved to guard because he could not handle speed rushers; Leon Hall was too slow to play CB; and starting Peko was proof that the Bengals did not care about winning.

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9 hours ago, fluhartz said:

both were great QB's back in the day..

 

Fouts out performs Kenny in being a mentally challenged football announcer..

I swear every time I watch a game with him I am amazed at how dumb that dude is

He was great in "The Waterboy", though, you have to give him that. "He knocked the poop out of him!"

"Poop?"

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8 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Fans opinion does not mean very much.  Many people around here claimed Justin Smith was garbage and would not start on any other team; Whitworth needed to be moved to guard because he could not handle speed rushers; Leon Hall was too slow to play CB; and starting Peko was proof that the Bengals did not care about winning.

Most of what you are saying is simply not true.  Few if any said Justin Smith was garbage.  Many said he didn't live up to the #4 pick while playing here and that is without a doubt true.  Didn't help that the Bengals only had 1 winning season while he played here.  Went to a better organization with better coaching (at the time) and did fine. 

 

The whole Whitworth NEEDED to be moved to guard is laughable.  Nobody said he NEEDED to be moved there, most said moving him to guard would extend his career and improve our rushing game which it absolutely did. Nobody said  he could no longer play Left Tackle which is what you are insinuating with your comment. The assumption was he would retire a Bengal so the longer we could keep him playing at a high level ANYWERE on the o line the better.   He left for a better organization and is probably thanking God every day. 

 

I simply do not remember the board as a whole proclaiming Leon Hall too slow to play CB.  BTW, he had 1 great season,..that is it.  He was very AVERAGE at best.  Never a pro bowler so not sure why you are pimping him.   JJ is a better player. 

 

Peko was a below average player the last two years he played here playing in a 4-3.   He is currently a very average player at Denver playing in a 3-4.  He was signed there because their BETTER nose tackle went to Houston for $9.5 mil guaranteed money.  Denver used the money somewhere else and paid Peko $3.5 mil guaranteed because he was all they needed  since they rely on linebackers to make tackles and plays.    That is how good organizations do that free agency thingy. 

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