Andy Dalton needs great teammates to succeed

[|SF2|]

15 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Even Scooter looked like shit with the exception of like 4 throws in the 2015/16 playoff game.

 

Carson, Dalton, McCarron, doesn't matter. There must be SOME common denominators here, right?

 

Nah it's probably just because Andy sucks. Yeah, that's it!

They were all Bengalized!!

 

/2

 

[T-Dub]

7 minutes ago, SF2 said:

They were all Bengalized!!

 

/2

 

 

 

Team hasn't looked the same since the WC game.  Too much bullshit, too demoralizing on many levels. Then they start this season with the heart of the defense suspended on some more bullshit plus a lame duck HC, shit OL, clueless OC, grabass QB play.. They are 2-3 losses from total meltdown, which at this point may be exactly what they need.  Scary part about that is the possibility that The Redeemer will think he has the solution rather than admit he's more likely the root of the problem.

 

 

[fredtoast]

1 hour ago, SF2 said:

Yet Brady won yet another playoff game, 25 and counting, something Dalton could not do with far superior talent in 2013.  

Poor Tom Brady.  don't know how he managed to win a playoff game with a bunch of scrubs on his team like...

 

PK Stephen Gostkowski...4 Pro Bowl, 2 times All Pro

OG Logan Mankins..........6 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

NT Vince Wilfork.............4 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

LB Jerad Mayo...............2 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

DB Devin McCourty.......2 Pro Bowl

LB Jamie Collins............1 Pro Bowl

LB Andre Carter............1 Pro Bowl

DB Aquib Talib..............1 Pro Bowl

LB Donta Hightower......1 Pro Bowl

DE Chandler Jones........1 Pro Bowl

 

And, of course, he had to deal with that bum of a coach Bill Belichik holding him back.

[|SF2|]

4 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Poor Tom Brady.  don't know how he managed to win a playoff game with a bunch of scrubs on his team like...

 

PK Stephen Gostkowski...4 Pro Bowl, 2 times All Pro

OG Logan Mankins..........6 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

NT Vince Wilfork.............4 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

LB Jerad Mayo...............2 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro

DB Devin McCourty.......2 Pro Bowl

LB Jamie Collins............1 Pro Bowl

LB Andre Carter............1 Pro Bowl

DB Aquib Talib..............1 Pro Bowl

LB Donta Hightower......1 Pro Bowl

DE Chandler Jones........1 Pro Bowl

Sorry Fred, I still don't like Andy Dalton as our QB,  he is  Tyrod Taylor.

[omgdrdoom]

5 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Sorry Fred, I still don't like Andy Dalton as our QB,  he is  Tyrod Taylor.

I only want a new QB if new coaches are coming in with him. I don't mind putting Andy on the bench for a game or two to let him calm down if he keeps up the below average play, but I don't think McCarron is the answer either.

 

It sucks that the 2018 FA market doesn't look too hot for OL so we need to go there early and often in the draft, but if we're drafting high and want a QB then we're back to picking between the QB and the people who need to protect him. 2017 isn't the time to have a shit OL which is really unfortunate, we may not see an actual fix for 2-3 seasons minimum. 

[fredtoast]

12 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Sorry Fred, I still don't like Andy Dalton as our QB,  he is  Tyrod Taylor.

Right, because Dalton has had the #1 rushing offense in the league behind him and has still never had a winning record or thrown for more than 20 td or 3100 in any season.

 

But I can certainly understand how a guy with your knowledge of the NFL would think they are exactly the same.

[|SF2|]

 

14 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Right, because Dalton has had the #1 rushing offense in the league behind him and has still never had a winning record or thrown for more than 20 td or 3100 in any season.

 

But I can certainly understand how a guy with your knowledge of the NFL would think they are exactly the same.

LOL, he is Tyrod Taylor not because of stats but because he doesn't do one thing what so ever to inspire ME anymore.   Sorry, but when the question going thru one's mind is "Which Andy Dalton are we going to see today?"  it is time for change.   Not going to happen quickly and it may be something like paying $ for O Line FAs (LOL, yeah, I just typed that) or bringing in a new coach (bye bye Marvin) but until then I have NO faith in Andy Dalton to lead this team anywhere. 

 

I don't care what you are anyone else thinks or says, I watched the first two games and he was garbage.  Franchise QBs don't do this their first two games at home with a FULLY HEALTHY OFFENSE:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T-Dub]

5 minutes ago, SF2 said:

 Franchise QBs don't do this their first two games at home with a FULLY HEALTHY OFFENSE:

 

 

I seriously doubt Eifert has been anything like "fully healthy" in years but aside from that, I think it's entirely possible that AD is done.  Not convinced either way but he's certainly been trending the wrong direction so far this season. 

[|SF2|]

3 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I seriously doubt Eifert has been anything like "fully healthy" in years but aside from that, I think it's entirely possible that AD is done.  Not convinced either way but he's certainly been trending the wrong direction so far this season. 

Andy isn't done, in the right system with plenty of weapons and protection he can do OK in this league.  I am sure he would do fine playing for the Rams with their weapons and the monetary commitment they made to the o line this year.  

[USN Bengal]

3 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Lol

 

The point is that it's a team game. I'm not going to sit here and call Andy Dalton an elite or amazing QB by any stretch, but trolls like you that just run around and say he sucks are very far off of reality.

 

This is honestly unreal and you can't be a Bengals fan actually. You do know Geno was drafted before Andy, right? No? Major lolz "bra"

Here we go again... you come in here with an OPINION, not concrete proof, yet you want to argue with anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinion or present any proof to your liking.

 

Then you resort to calling them trolls and the good old last resort of the truly insufferable and question their “fan hood” ...

 

Knock off the bullshit or take a little holiday... capiche?

[omgdrdoom]

4 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

Here we go again... you come in here with an OPINION, not concrete proof, yet you want to argue with anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinion or present any proof to your liking.

 

Then you resort to calling them trolls and the good old last resort of the truly insufferable and question their “fan hood” ...

 

Knock off the bullshit or take a little holiday... capiche?

He's a known troll from other Bengals social media.

 

He's made up about 20 random stats that are highly inaccurate including that Geno Atkins was drafted 2 years after Andy and that Andy has thrown 15 INTs in the playoffs alone while he's thrown 6. That can't be an actual Bengals fan, right? Almost 100% of his posting history is "Andy sux bra" or *insert fake statistic here* or "Andy sux leg humper".

 

There are those on here that throw around the word "troll" to anyone they don't agree with (in fact, I just saw a quote in another thread where you called Fredtoast a "troll" because you didn't like what he had to say) or just at people who like to argue, that's not my style. I know exactly what the word means and I use it when the shoe fits. Notice no matter how much I disagree with you, SF, Tdub, or any others, I've never accused any of you of what I'm accusing this lovely gentleman of.

[USN Bengal]

1. I don’t give a flying fuck what ANY poster does on another board. This is GO-BENGALS and we deal with what only happens here.

 

2. You like to attack others when your opinion is disagreed with. Opinions are like assholes... you know the rest.

 

3. I shut you down by telling you I wouldn’t argue with you in another thread, and obviously that got your undies in a bundle because you started a whole new thread to try and get someone to argue with.

 

That, good sir, is trolling... so yet again, knock off the bullshit or take a forced break.

[Le Tigre]

5 hours ago, SF2 said:

Andy isn't done, in the right system with plenty of weapons and protection he can do OK in this league.  I am sure he would do fine playing for the Rams with their weapons and the monetary commitment they made to the o line this year.  

Oh for the love of God...you point to the fucking RAMS?? 

 

Their"monetary commitment'"?? They play in a building that was new when Herbert fucking Hoover was president. They are gambling on a nebulous NFL commitment that they will make money in a market that doesn't give a flying fuck if they are there or not. Maybe they can join their refugee brothers down at the StubHub Center and play in a fucking soccer stadium? 

 

Sir: give examples of fine organizations...but do not insult intelligence by including the Rams in the conversation. 

[USN Bengal]

Have a nice break...

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

Oh for the love of God...you point to the fucking RAMS?? 

 

Their"monetary commitment'"?? They play in a building that was new when Herbert fucking Hoover was president. They are gambling on a nebulous NFL commitment that they will make money in a market that doesn't give a flying fuck if they are there or not. Maybe they can join their refugee brothers down at the StubHub Center and play in a fucking soccer stadium? 

 

Sir: give examples of fine organizations...but do not insult intelligence by including the Rams in the conversation. 

I was talking about the offensive line and skill players, not the organization.  Do you have an issue comprehending written english?

 

They spent money in the off season on an all pro offensive tackle, we cut salary by not paying an all pro offensive tackle.  They got Sammy Watkins we got,...

 

Their new stadium will be nice.  Their owner is a cock sucker.

[|Bunghole|]

On 9/21/2017 at 2:32 PM, omgdrdoom said:

I've heard this a lot in the past couple of weeks now, but my question is....who doesn't? I want to see how many seasons and QBs we can come up with that have had great seasons with less than talented OL, receivers, and/or coaches.

 

2010 - Philip Rivers, the only non-OL player to start all 16 games that year. Only 2 of his o-linemen started 16 games as well. This was the year that SD players dropped like flies all through the season. His best offensive weapons in Antonio Gates missed 6 games, Vincent Jackson missed 10+, and his OL ranked around league average (run blocking slightly above average, pass blocking below average with 38 sacks). Clarence Shelmon was the OC of the team and this was his one and only gig as anything above a position coach in the NFL, he was pretty much a lifer at RB coach at the college and NFL levels. You'd think given the circumstances that Rivers would have shit the bed, hell, can you imagine having to be an NFL QB throwing to the likes of Legedu Naanee, Craig Davis, Randy McMichael, Seyi Ajirotutu, and Kelly Washington for a full season? Darren Sproles, Malcom Floyd, and Patrick Crayton were Rivers' best options outside of Gates for most of the season.

 

Philip posted over 4700 passing yards that year with 30 TD to 13 INT, completed 66% of his passes, and had a 101.8 rating. The team went 9-7, but their defense was pretty darn good. #1 in yardage, #10 in PPG, #2 in yards per play, T-#2 in sacks, but didn't force a lot of turnovers.

 

Are there any specific seasons people can come up with where a QB performed at a high level despite a bit of a mess around them? I'm genuinely curious to see how much there is to back up the "Andy can't play well without great players around him!!!" claim. I feel like not many QBs ever have great seasons without other great players and coaches surrounding them.

Almost every NFL QB ever to stride the gridiron has worse performances when his surrounding casts suck. This is why the few that do well under those circumstances stand out beyond the others. Dalton is not one of those men, and neither are most of the NFL QB's that have ever played. What's your point (and now I see you are suspended so I feel stupid for even asking but maybe the peanut gallery will chime in).

12 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Yep and even though Brady has had good games without Gronk since, they've also signed other good TEs and developed WRs. Their offense wasn't prepared to perform without Gronkowski that year.

 

I'm wondering where all the "Andy sucks without weapons" guys are at though. You'd think with that kind of criticism that it would be simple for people to be rattling off seasons where all of these NFL QBs had great years without a good supporting cast.

Andy, like most NFL QB's not named Brady or Manning, suck without weapons. I'm here.

10 hours ago, fresno bengal said:

Andy sucks with or without weapons. The farthest he could get us is a wildcard birth.

This may be true. How much longer can the window be open for guys like AJ Green before they bail? Or become too expensive for Mike Brown?

10 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Geno Atkins sucks with or without weapons. The furthest he could get us is a wildcard berth.

 

Herpa derpa doooooooooooooooooooooo

Geno Atkins is the best DT in the league. 

10 hours ago, fresno bengal said:

Actually all our previous playoff experiences were competitive games. Can't say the same about 4 of our last 5. I think McCarron was QB when we last had a playoff lead. If I'm not mistaken Dalton never has held the lead in the playoffs. 

What games were you watching? Or maybe just the first halves of them.

10 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Also kick off AJ Green and Dunlap, right?

 

Guess you were thrilled to see Zeitler and Whitworth go last year since they sucked so bad.

The saddest thing of this is that the Bengals had the cap room to resign BOTH of those guys, and failed to do so. Facepalm.

10 hours ago, SF2 said:

Uhh, the Patriots won a playoff game that year and lost to the Broncos in the AFC Championship.  Even with less than optimal talent the Patriots find ways to win regular season and playoff games.  We find ways to lose those games with far better talent.   Its not all Dalton's fault, the organization doesn't need to be exceptional to make a boatload of money.  An NFL franchise is not Samsung or Apple fighting for the best talent in order to continue to put out great products to remain profitable, the Bengals just need to spend near the cap, hire coaches to get them on an off the field properly and teach the player enough plays and defensive formations to provide competition to the marque franchises. 

 

The Browns will make plenty of money by simply providing a team to play every week regardless of the quality. 

But they continue to devise ways to NOT spend near the cap despite the newly invoked cap floor rules. We have lots of money floating around, we SHOULD have resigned Whitworth.

9 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Not based on your logic.

 

Not winning a playoff game is proof that they suck, right?

Um...yes? Yes it is. Look, we are all Bengals fans, but the existence of an NFL team IS to win the Superbowl. We haven't even won a SINGLE playoff game under Marvin. It's stale, it's old, he needs fired, we need to make changes. I am SO sick of this shit. Sorry if I'm emotionally invested, it's called being a fan, which is shorthand for "fanatic".

9 hours ago, fredtoast said:

And Brady's postseason passer rating (87.5) was almost exactly the same as his sub-par regular season rating (87.3).

 

This thread is about individuals, not teams.  So if you want to say that "every player and coach on the Bengals" needs great players around him to succeed then you have a point.  But that is not what we are discussing.

Why does Brady's postseason percentage matter when he clearly wins games, regardless of his talent or that of whomever fills the roster when he takes a snap? Like Barry Sanders behind a shitty oline, he just gets shit done. I realize that he's a generational talent and that Dalton will never be him or even close to it, but why the ratings? They are meaningless to winning games. What was the Rapists QBR in the first SB he won? A rapey 2.5 or something?

8 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Even Scooter looked like shit with the exception of like 4 throws in the 2015/16 playoff game.

 

Carson, Dalton, McCarron, doesn't matter. There must be SOME common denominators here, right?

 

Nah it's probably just because Andy sucks. Yeah, that's it!

Let's end with this: intangibles.

 

Brady replaced Bledsoe, whom was a first round pick and much loved for his TANGIBLES. 6'5", could throw the ball around the yard, etc. A prototype QB (very much like Carson Palmer). Destiny, history and injury have a funny way of granting blessings to an unknown and unproven rookie from Bitchagain. Brady lacked ALL THE THINGS Bledsoe had. Yet...he marshalled his troops to victory, and continues to do so.

 

Dalton LACKS that innate ability to slide step and stay in the pocket. He takes off running, sometimes for success, sometimes not. 

 

The ultimate point here is that yes, Dalton isn't elite, and it has nothing to do with stats. It has to do with cool-headedness under pressure, the ability to look off receivers, not lock in on first reads, and find the open man. Brady is a MASTER of that, as much as I hate him, and that's despite an all-star roster.

 

Dalton doesn't have that ability, hence, our outcome.

[Le Tigre]

10 hours ago, SF2 said:

I was talking about the offensive line and skill players, not the organization.  Do you have an issue comprehending written english?

 

They spent money in the off season on an all pro offensive tackle, we cut salary by not paying an all pro offensive tackle.  They got Sammy Watkins we got,...

 

Their new stadium will be nice.  Their owner is a cock sucker.

I read quite well, thank you. 

 

For or all of their "investments" in their line, the net asset is that it is now the NFL's oldest, and only intact through 2018-maybe. Maybe they needed WR help--did our team? Their defense is still trash, so even if they turn into Air Coryell/Ground-Pound for a season, they still do not make playoffs. They also did not draft any offensive linemen. 

 

Sure you still want to make the Los Angeles Rams your Shining City on the Hill? 

[|SF2|]

1 hour ago, Le Tigre said:

I read quite well, thank you. 

 

For or all of their "investments" in their line, the net asset is that it is now the NFL's oldest, and only intact through 2018-maybe. Maybe they needed WR help--did our team? Their defense is still trash, so even if they turn into Air Coryell/Ground-Pound for a season, they still do not make playoffs. They also did not draft any offensive linemen. 

 

Sure you still want to make the Los Angeles Rams your Shining City on the Hill? 

I said Dalton would do well playing in the Rams current offense. I never mentioned anything about winning games or their defense. BTW, are you saying signing an all pro to fill a very important need for two years is a bad idea?  

 

Also I said you have a reading comprehension problem. Your response was you read quite well.  You just proved my point, you don't understand what you are reading,  

 

To further prove this I basically said the Rams signed two players to fill needs, Whit and Watkins and that we signed,... ( meaning nobody of course).  Somehow your limited intellect deciphered that to mean that I thought we should have signed a WR. No, I never said such a thing.  My point was pretty obvious,  they signed players trying to get better, we didn't do shit other than let good players walk.

 

 

[Le Tigre]

Lord bless the fools and little children. 

 

Your original post was elementary reading. Your follow ups redundant. Your basic points were clear, your conclusions same. 

 

There: your points are validated--not for content, but understanding. OK now?

 

But please don't feign indignation when challenged on the equally-obvious point that you are more in admiration for some avaricious, carpet bagging refugee NFL franchise than your own, simply because they sign a 36-year old tackle and an OK WR. 

 

Plenty of good seats in that going on century old place in South Central. 

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

Lord bless the fools and little children. 

 

Your original post was elementary reading. Your follow ups redundant. Your basic points were clear, your conclusions same. 

 

There: your points are validated--not for content, but understanding. OK now?

 

But please don't feign indignation when challenged on the equally-obvious point that you are more in admiration for some avaricious, carpet bagging refugee NFL franchise than your own, simply because they sign a 36-year old tackle and an OK WR. 

 

Plenty of good seats in that going on century old place in South Central. 

Andy would perform at a much higher level as the Ram's current QB than on a Bengal's team with a horrid offensive line.  I think he would do better behind the Browns' current line as well.  Tell me why I am wrong. 

[T-Dub]

6 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Andy would perform at a much higher level as the Ram's current QB than on a Bengal's team with a horrid offensive line.  I think he would do better behind the Browns' current line as well.  Tell me why I am wrong. 

 

Rams, maybe.  Cleveland is one of the few teams (SF, HOU) that have given up more sacks than we have.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks

[Le Tigre]

4 hours ago, SF2 said:

Andy would perform at a much higher level as the Ram's current QB than on a Bengal's team with a horrid offensive line.  I think he would do better behind the Browns' current line as well.  Tell me why I am wrong. 

I won't. Because it is speculation. Although I do like the little derogation of Goff, so as to elevate the quality of the NFL's oldest and shortest-tenured offensive line. 

[fredtoast]

20 hours ago, Bunghole said:

 

But they continue to devise ways to NOT spend near the cap despite the newly invoked cap floor rules. 

In both 2015 and 2016 the Bengals spent OVER the NFL salary cap.  They were able to do this because they roll over their unused cap space instead of placing it in the pocket of the owner like the cheap teams.

 

This year the bengals have $147.2 million salary allocated to active players.  Only 9 other teams have more.

 

So many fans have no clue how this works.  They love to squeal about how the Bengals are the cheapest team in the league, but they don't know what they are talking about.

[fredtoast]

20 hours ago, Bunghole said:

 

Um...yes? Yes it is. Look, we are all Bengals fans, but the existence of an NFL team IS to win the Superbowl. We haven't even won a SINGLE playoff game under Marvin. It's stale, it's old, he needs fired, we need to make changes. I am SO sick of this shit. Sorry if I'm emotionally invested, it's called being a fan, which is shorthand for "fanatic".

If you think Geno Atkins sucks it has nothing to do with being emotionally invested.  It has to do with you being clueless.

 

You are relying on a logical fallacy called the fallacy of division.  Just because something is true of the whole does not mean it is true of all the parts.  This is probably the most common fallacy usee arund here.  Whenever I prove someone wrong they with stats or facts they fall back to "25 years" or "0-7", but that is ridiculous.  Geno Atkins does not suck just because he has never won a playoff game.

[|Bunghole|]

2 hours ago, fredtoast said:

In both 2015 and 2016 the Bengals spent OVER the NFL salary cap.  They were able to do this because they roll over their unused cap space instead of placing it in the pocket of the owner like the cheap teams.

 

This year the bengals have $147.2 million salary allocated to active players.  Only 9 other teams have more.

 

So many fans have no clue how this works.  They love to squeal about how the Bengals are the cheapest team in the league, but they don't know what they are talking about.

Perhaps this is so. All I know is that I keep hearing that we had the cap room to resign Whitworth and Zeitler, but didn't, and we stood pat with what we had, with (so far) disastrous results. I understand not giving a guard the kind of money that Cleveland threw at him, but we should have resigned Whitworth.

1 hour ago, fredtoast said:

If you think Geno Atkins sucks it has nothing to do with being emotionally invested.  It has to do with you being clueless.

 

You are relying on a logical fallacy called the fallacy of division.  Just because something is true of the whole does not mean it is true of all the parts.  This is probably the most common fallacy usee arund here.  Whenever I prove someone wrong they with stats or facts they fall back to "25 years" or "0-7", but that is ridiculous.  Geno Atkins does not suck just because he has never won a playoff game.

Not sure where you're going with this. I don't think Atkins sucks (and I know you were using this as an example), and there are plenty of other players on our team that don't suck either. But the whole IS the sum of the parts, and the team as a whole pretty much sucks big donkey dorks right now. And I also don't get how you can argue with the 0-7 not sucking thing. It does, in fact, suck. It's the suckiest of the suck that ever sucked. Marvin Lewis should get into the anti-hall of fame for that much playoff suckitude. As I said, I am tired of regular season greatness and playoff/primetime failure.