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Ken Burns Vietnam War documentary


Tigers Johnson

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28 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

As far as Burns' Jazz stuff, it wont ruin my positive view of Marsalis will it?

 

Wynton was just a little too obsessed with the legends of jazz, and a bit dismissive of the fusion, electric, "new age" jazz.  But the documentary still covered all of that.

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The Vietnam conflict by itself was a watershed even in US history, but it was magnified by the fact that it took place at the same time as the Civil Rights Movement, the Womens Liberation Movement, the dawning of the Environmental Protection Era, and the hippie free love era.

 

The country was going through a seismic change.  The Civil Rights movement by itself was a massive cultural shift with dozens of people dying in riots all across the country.  It was crazy that all of this stuff was happening at the same time.

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11 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

I only recently became familiar with Burns when he gave that speech last year at Stamford.

But as someone who grew up playing Trumpet, I am a huge Marsalis fan, ... should I watch this?

 

Sure, there's a lot of good stuff in there and no doubt Marsalis is a tremendous talent.  It's been years since I watched it but he does seem to have a huge ego & view his family as torchbearers for "real" jazz, which is whatever he says it is.  Also you're probably a racist if you think Brubeck, Miller, Pastorius, Reinhardt etc were anything but thieves exploiting "real" jazz, if worth mentioning at all.

 

It's entertaining but like most of his documentaries - miles wide, inches deep.

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12 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

Well I am not talking about militia groups...’I’m talking about people reacting to what they here Antifa is saying they are going to do. Charlottesville was just the most recent asinine action by them. They instigated shot just as much as the Nazi bastards did... I live 45 minutes from there and know many people who witnessed all the bullshit.

 

What has AFA said they were going to do?  I suspect it's far different than what these folks you mention are saying they said, let alone anything that might actually happen.

 

I reject that AFA "instigated" anything.  The torch-bearing mob of Nazis did the instigating.  AFA reacted to it, poorly in some cases.  Still quite a bit different in my mind. 

 

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 They are both hate groups who destroy and disrupt innocent people with their actions, and do nothing that is helpful to our society.

 

I think AFA is kinda fucked, or at least inclined to lash out without much purpose or plan.  Comparing the two is ridiculous IMO.  They aren't beating up minorities or burning crosses on lawns.  Nazis, the KKK, League of the South etc are far, far worse.

 

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The white supremacy groups are different than the militias by the way. 

 

Up to a point.  There's a lot of crossover there, both in membership and ideology.  Primarily in the sense of fear and a panicked sense of disenfranchisement being their motivation.  

 

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BTW - don’t underestimate militias and their “tactical cosplay “ as you put it. A metric shit ton of them had years of tactical training in the military. We’re not talking about “Bubba and Cletus” grabbing their shotguns, pitchforks, and moonshine and talking like badasses. I know some very badass people that could really fuck some shit up. The training they go through is better than the military in some aspects... they just don’t have the big weapons that the military does... for the most part.

 

From what I've seen the handful with real combat experience are far outnumbered by the wanna-be's.  Their power comes not from any martial prowess, but from the government's reluctance to engage in the massacre that would result from a real confrontation.  They can strut around the with their Gadsden flags and AR's because the AFTE isn't going to call in the drone strike over some kook rancher's grazing taxes or an obscure nature center in BFE Oregon.  Unfortunately this approach only emboldens them to the point where another Waco or whatever happens and they snap out of it again for a time.  In the big picture these guys are only a threat to themselves.

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8 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

What has AFA said they were going to do?  I suspect it's far different than what these folks you mention are saying they said, let alone anything that might actually happen.

I don't know... as far as I have seen or heard the only thing happening on November 4th is gathering/marches to once again protest Trump/Pence. No idea what people think is going to happen. Read somewhere that they were supposedly going to use November 4th marches/gatherings as a cover to attack government offices in some bigger cities. Fringe element reports and crap like that.

8 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I reject that AFA "instigated" anything.  The torch-bearing mob of Nazis did the instigating.  AFA reacted to it, poorly in some cases.  Still quite a bit different in my mind. 

I think AFA is kinda fucked, or at least inclined to lash out without much purpose or plan.  Comparing the two is ridiculous IMO.  They aren't beating up minorities or burning crosses on lawns.  Nazis, the KKK, League of the South etc are far, far worse.

While I agree with you that the "white power boys" are far worse, I'm referring to the fascist tactics that AFA has employed since the day after the election last year. You may reject anything you wish, but people I know who were there saw what they did... you just saw what was reported by our disgustingly one side or the other media. The people I know are far left liberals who were taking part in the protests and were dismayed by the tactics of "their side". As far as comparing them, I did no such thing. I stated that they are both hate groups who do nothing but disrupt and destroy. I've abhorred the Nazi pricks for decades and have always wondered why they and other vermin like the KKK and League of the South HAVEN'T been categorized as terrorist organizations. 

 

Question... why did you only refer to what the AFA did in Charlottesville? They've been dishing out their particular brand of fascism since the last election.... throwing bottles with M-80s in them, aerosol can flame throwers, smashing windows, assaulting people, setting cars on fire, shutting down free speech of ANY group they disagree with etc... Just like the brownshirts started in Germany. What disgusts me is that people DO compare the groups, and because they have't done everything the KKK etc have done, they then determine that they are "not all that bad".  Anytime you mess with peoples rights, liberties, and enact violence to the general public you are a major problem.

8 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Up to a point.  There's a lot of crossover there, both in membership and ideology.  Primarily in the sense of fear and a panicked sense of disenfranchisement being their motivation.  

From what I've seen the handful with real combat experience are far outnumbered by the wanna-be's.  Their power comes not from any martial prowess, but from the government's reluctance to engage in the massacre that would result from a real confrontation.  They can strut around the with their Gadsden flags and AR's because the AFTE isn't going to call in the drone strike over some kook rancher's grazing taxes or an obscure nature center in BFE Oregon.  Unfortunately this approach only emboldens them to the point where another Waco or whatever happens and they snap out of it again for a time.  In the big picture these guys are only a threat to themselves.

This is where I believe you are dangerously wrong... there are a helluva lot more of these groups than people think. I agree that there is crossover, but most peoples views about these groups mirror what you wrote above. The stereotype goes like this...  "strut around the with their Gadsden flags and AR's" Bubba and Cletus southerners, getting drunk, and shouting about the South rising again.

The one group who approached me to join is homed in Pennsylvania, and the people that I know in the group consist of three successful CEOs, 2 general managers, and a chemical engineer. All of them have prior service experience and 3 are retired Marines. I don't know the rest of their group or how many people they have, but I do know they have 5 groups in other states that they train together with at least twice yearly. Tip of the iceberg? Maybe, maybe not... but I wouldn't feel comfortable writing them off as a joke.

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19 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

Some more reading:

From Brookings:

 

Should we treat domestic terrorists the way we treat ISIS?: What works—and what doesn’t

 

Background: Frank Kitson (These are direct links to pdf files.)

 

Gangs and Countergangs

Low Intensity Operations

 

Good reads... I'm familiar with some of his work.

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12 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 Also you're probably a racist if you think Brubeck, Miller, Pastorius, Reinhardt etc were anything but thieves exploiting "real" jazz, if worth mentioning at all.

 

What is your problem with Burns?  Why do you make up total bullshit claims like this?

 

Burns first three major projects all strongly commented on race in America.  The Civil War was obvious.  A major portion of his "Baseball" series dealt with the negro leagues and integration of the major league.  And the "Jazz" series commented on the cultural interaction and influence brought about by white people being drawn to jazz music.  There were interviews with Dave Brubeck about it.  The story was told about how Bix Beiderbeck was accepted as a legit jazz musician by Louis Armstrong. The influence of Benny Goodman was also highlighted.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fredtoast said:

What is your problem with Burns?  Why do you make up total bullshit claims like this?

 

Burns first three major projects all strongly commented on race in America.  The Civil War was obvious.  A major portion of his "Baseball" series dealt with the negro leagues and integration of the major league.  And the "Jazz" series commented on the cultural interaction and influence brought about by white people being drawn to jazz music.  There were interviews with Dave Brubeck about it.  The story was told about how Bix Beiderbeck was accepted as a legit jazz musician by Louis Armstrong. The influence of Benny Goodman was also highlighted.

 

 

 

 

 

I think he was talking about Marsalis.

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11 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

I don't know... as far as I have seen or heard the only thing happening on November 4th is gathering/marches to once again protest Trump/Pence. No idea what people think is going to happen. Read somewhere that they were supposedly going to use November 4th marches/gatherings as a cover to attack government offices in some bigger cities. Fringe element reports and crap like that.e.

 

Sounds like much ado about nothing.  Although, there is a growing hostility towards protest in general that I do find troubling. It's gone from "get a job", past "just run them over", to "they're all TERRORISTS!"  This in a nation founded on civil disobedience.

 

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While I agree with you that the "white power boys" are far worse, I'm referring to the fascist tactics that AFA has employed since the day after the election last year. You may reject anything you wish, but people I know who were there saw what they did... you just saw what was reported by our disgustingly one side or the other media. The people I know are far left liberals who were taking part in the protests and were dismayed by the tactics of "their side".

 

I wonder where these tactics are coming from? AFA is a fairly organized group.  Black bloc anarchist protesters are much less so, in many cases I think people who mostly enjoy breaking shit.  I have to wonder how they're being identified with AFA, other than it being a handy label.  They don't wear patches and uniforms like the militias, after all. It's kind of like BLM - anyone at a BLM protest is considered a member, like the nut in Dallas who started shooting at police.  Likewise in Ferguson and other cities where BLM protests have turned violent, where organizers and more involved members claimed to have never seen the instigators before, or even recognize them as locals.  That may or may not be true, but point being that anyone can dress in black, tie a bandanna around their head and go throw a brick through a window. You don't have to sign up with AFA first.  


 

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As far as comparing them, I did no such thing. I stated that they are both hate groups who do nothing but disrupt and destroy. I've abhorred the Nazi pricks for decades and have always wondered why they and other vermin like the KKK and League of the South HAVEN'T been categorized as terrorist organizations. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I think we're on the same page there for the most part.  I'm definitely not implying that you support any of that.  My issue is with that "violence on both sides" stuff from Troll President and much of the media. It's meant to legitimize white nationalists as simply another "side" of the political spectrum, rather than disgusting bags of shit who don't deserve a seat at the table, period.

 

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Question... why did you only refer to what the AFA did in Charlottesville? They've been dishing out their particular brand of fascism since the last election.... throwing bottles with M-80s in them, aerosol can flame throwers, smashing windows, assaulting people, setting cars on fire, shutting down free speech of ANY group they disagree with etc... Just like the brownshirts started in Germany.

 

Have they? I saw the picture of the young black guy torching a Confederate flag with the DIY flamethrower, I don't know if that's a widespread thing.  Frankly in his case I thought it was pretty bad-ass. He's outnumbered, got shot at, and for a young black dude these guys are not just some political debate. These are groups that have a long history of terrorizing he and his ancestors.  When violent, armed groups of people start organizing publicly to advocate your genocide, I think a hostile reaction is justifiable. While I may think there are better ways of confronting them, I'm also a white dude that's not at all threatened by them individually (for as long as I can keep my mouth shut, anyway).  I don't think it's my place to tell someone personally targeted by these groups how they should properly react to them.

 

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What disgusts me is that people DO compare the groups, and because they have't done everything the KKK etc have done, they then determine that they are "not all that bad".  Anytime you mess with peoples rights, liberties, and enact violence to the general public you are a major problem.

 

Not as bad. To me it seems like throwing in local shoplifters into a discussion of Bernie Madoff. Yes shoplifting is wrong, but holy shit.. perspective? I don't think groups like the National Front deserve to have their rights protected, honestly. Their entire agenda is one of denying rights to others.  Our Constitutional rights are not absolutes. You can't threaten to kill someone, for example, and that is essentially what those groups have done only on a much larger scale. For decades. With relative impunity.

 

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This is where I believe you are dangerously wrong... there are a helluva lot more of these groups than people think. I agree that there is crossover, but most peoples views about these groups mirror what you wrote above. The stereotype goes like this...  "strut around the with their Gadsden flags and AR's" Bubba and Cletus southerners, getting drunk, and shouting about the South rising again.

 

Oh I know there are a lot of them, and they're growing. I think the Gadsden flags and military cosplay stereotype is pretty accurate. I absolutely do not think it's limited to southerners, or ignorant people even. If only. 

 

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The one group who approached me to join is homed in Pennsylvania, and the people that I know in the group consist of three successful CEOs, 2 general managers, and a chemical engineer. All of them have prior service experience and 3 are retired Marines. I don't know the rest of their group or how many people they have, but I do know they have 5 groups in other states that they train together with at least twice yearly. Tip of the iceberg? Maybe, maybe not... but I wouldn't feel comfortable writing them off as a joke.

 

 

I don't think they're a joke at all.  In fact, I think any adult should know how to safely handle a gun, at least to the point of being able to safely disarm/unload one.  I'm not even entirely opposed to the kind of training these groups are doing, when it's geared towards self-defense & their own security.  When they start talking about operating offensively & attacking people, that crosses a line.  When it's in reaction to some baseless RE:RE:RE:RE: email chain or something Alex Jones said, that's downright dangerous.

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We’re pretty much in agreement or at least see eye to eye on what’s going on I think. I don’t agree with all of what you say and I know you feel the same. We could definitely sit down with some beer/bourbon and fix this country... or at least get drunk and laugh because it’s all we can do.

 

This shit storm of a country is just pissing me the hell off. I worry that the Nazis, AFA, militias, black bloc, ....etc are going to go supernova all at once. Really seems to be where we’re heading sadly. I still truly lov this country, but I sure as hell don’t like it very much at all right now.

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55 minutes ago, USN Bengal said:

We’re pretty much in agreement or at least see eye to eye on what’s going on I think. I don’t agree with all of what you say and I know you feel the same. We could definitely sit down with some beer/bourbon and fix this country... or at least get drunk and laugh because it’s all we can do.

 

This shit storm of a country is just pissing me the hell off. I worry that the Nazis, AFA, militias, black bloc, ....etc are going to go supernova all at once. Really seems to be where we’re heading sadly. I still truly lov this country, but I sure as hell don’t like it very much at all right now.

 

I think it's likely something terribly shitty is going to happen, but I think it will be mostly localized or smaller-scaled.  Unfortunately some innocents are almost certain to get caught up in it, which seems to be the only thing that creates any kind of change (if anything will.)  We've become so desensitized to these terrorist attacks and massacres though that I wonder what it's going to take to shake people from their particular flavor of extremist views.  It would be cooler if we didn't need the periodic horrible act to bring folks together. 

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