Ken Burns Vietnam War documentary

[Homer_Rice]

I've been meaning to reply to you, Tigers, about the Marlantes excerpt you posted. What he has to say is quite chilling, imo. His novel, Matterhorn, is a very good read. I'd also suggest another bit of fiction that came out much closer to the end of the war: The 13th Valley, by John Delvecchio.

 

I served with a lot of guys who did tours and have been friends in civvy-life with a lot of Viet vets. Many of them are/were truly fucked up. What Marlantes and others show is that, even for people who have more or less re-assimilated in "socially-acceptable" ways, the dichotomy of that war still lives on in less obvious ways. I would like to have a chat with Marlantes and ask him if his view on human nature is completely pessimistic or if he thinks along the lines of what I think: that humans have the capacity for both great evil and great good. It is heart-breakingly sad what that war did to otherwise fine, decent people.

 

In another portion of the email exchange with my friend we discussed whether or not Vietnam "broke the back" of American society (when combined with other developments during the 60s.) Marlantes puts his finger on one aspect of the dissonance towards the end of the excerpt you posted: maybe we ought to consider that we aren't always right before leaping into these conflicts. We haven't learned that lesson, obviously, so now we have an even more brutal attitude towards American exceptionalism which portends the eventual end of American prominence in world affairs. It won't be soon like tomorrow, but like other "empires" it will happen and it'll be fairly soon, perhaps within the lifetimes of some of the middle-aged and younger folks here. And it's almost certain to be laden with even more unnecessarily broken lives and nations.

[fredtoast]

The people who are getting all worked up about how "war" is being used to "distort the republic" really have no clue about how the military spends money.  The same  all upset about how many US citizens are "ignorant" of the fact that we have over 9,000 troops in Afghanistan are apparently ignorant themselves of the fact that we have 4 times that many troops stationed in Japan (39,000) and Germany (35,000). We also have 24,000 in South Korea, and 12,000 in Italy.

 

As long as they keep claiming that the only way the US can justify deploying thousands of troops is with some fake war they will never understand the real truth.  They want to pick on the average citizen for not caring about 9 thousand troops in Afghanistan while completely ignoring the fact that we have almost 100,000 in Japan, Germany, and North Korea.

 

[T-Dub]

On 10/16/2017 at 5:20 PM, Homer_Rice said:

In another portion of the email exchange with my friend we discussed whether or not Vietnam "broke the back" of American society (when combined with other developments during the 60s.) 

 

IDK about society overall but I think it put an end to American idealism re: foreign policy.  Maybe we weren't over it completely, but I don't see much enthusiasm for the whole domino theory, fighting the spread of communism stuff by the end of the war.  Even before the end we'd already started signing the non-proliferation nuke treaties & I'd say we're much more cynical now about the wars we do fight, even in Afghanistan once the revenge high wore off.  We'll make the same noises about "safe for democracy" and all that but I don't get the impression anyone's buying that - soldiers, civilians or whoever.  Nobody is that excited to export our way of life at gunpoint. I know some old folks that were part of that Kennedy youth moment & for them the notion of America as a shining beacon of hope ended in Dealey Plaza.  Then they got drafted to fight in Vietnam & their view of our government, society, & pretty much everything else - disillusioned doesn't begin to cover it.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

On 10/16/2017 at 5:20 PM, Homer_Rice said:

I've been meaning to reply to you, Tigers, about the Marlantes excerpt you posted. What he has to say is quite chilling, imo. His novel, Matterhorn, is a very good read. I'd also suggest another bit of fiction that came out much closer to the end of the war: The 13th Valley, by John Delvecchio.

 

I served with a lot of guys who did tours and have been friends in civvy-life with a lot of Viet vets. Many of them are/were truly fucked up. What Marlantes and others show is that, even for people who have more or less re-assimilated in "socially-acceptable" ways, the dichotomy of that war still lives on in less obvious ways. I would like to have a chat with Marlantes and ask him if his view on human nature is completely pessimistic or if he thinks along the lines of what I think: that humans have the capacity for both great evil and great good. It is heart-breakingly sad what that war did to otherwise fine, decent people.

 

In another portion of the email exchange with my friend we discussed whether or not Vietnam "broke the back" of American society (when combined with other developments during the 60s.) Marlantes puts his finger on one aspect of the dissonance towards the end of the excerpt you posted: maybe we ought to consider that we aren't always right before leaping into these conflicts. We haven't learned that lesson, obviously, so now we have an even more brutal attitude towards American exceptionalism which portends the eventual end of American prominence in world affairs. It won't be soon like tomorrow, but like other "empires" it will happen and it'll be fairly soon, perhaps within the lifetimes of some of the middle-aged and younger folks here. And it's almost certain to be laden with even more unnecessarily broken lives and nations.

As I have watched this documentary slowly but surely.... I agree and wonder if we will ever learn the lesson that we aren’t always right as a nation...

 

I just watched episodes 7 and 8 and two things struck me...

 

1. White soldiers in Vietnam waving the confederate flag and what it meant to African American soldiers.... and how some people in our current few middle aged and younger generations think this is just a distraction issue and at the very least dismiss it. When African American soldiers go and fight American wars but are subjected to disrespect like this to me is unconscionable... 

 

2. I never realized how completely fucked the Kent St. and subsequent Jackson St. shootings were...  the fact that the Ohio national guard threatened to shoot again if the students didn’t disperse after they just killed 4 students is simply disgusting to me. Also the fact that 56 % of Americans thought the shooting was justified is just insanity.

 

I worry that Vietnam has a direct correlation between then and our politics today... seeing so many people blindly support things that will either hurt them directly or hurt other Americans. Have we lost our sense of humanity as a nation... and if so... when did it happen and can we fix it?

 

 

 

 

[Homer_Rice]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:07 PM, T-Dub said:

 

IDK about society overall but I think it put an end to American idealism re: foreign policy.  Maybe we weren't over it completely, but I don't see much enthusiasm for the whole domino theory, fighting the spread of communism stuff by the end of the war.  Even before the end we'd already started signing the non-proliferation nuke treaties & I'd say we're much more cynical now about the wars we do fight, even in Afghanistan once the revenge high wore off.  We'll make the same noises about "safe for democracy" and all that but I don't get the impression anyone's buying that - soldiers, civilians or whoever.  Nobody is that excited to export our way of life at gunpoint. I know some old folks that were part of that Kennedy youth moment & for them the notion of America as a shining beacon of hope ended in Dealey Plaza.  Then they got drafted to fight in Vietnam & their view of our government, society, & pretty much everything else - disillusioned doesn't begin to cover it.

My friend's argument was similar to yours with a bit more emphasis on the domestic side. The 4 major assassinations of the 60s (JFK, Malcolm, MLK, RFK) are pretty important in terms of the loss of faith in the government according to him. I'm inclined to agree with him and we both bemoaned the fact that LBJ got hoodwinked into deepening a war that even in the early stages some folks were saying could not be won. Burns brought that aspect out to his credit.

 

Being more interested in economics than him, I suggested that the gains made by the Civil Rights movement were neutered somewhat by our descent into 70s stagflation, the unsustainability of Guns and Butter policies, and the corresponding transition from an FDR New Deal oriented (fiscal) approach to the economy to the monetarism of Carter/Volcker and hence into Reaganism, etc... And here we are.

[Homer_Rice]

19 hours ago, Tigers Johnson said:

As I have watched this documentary slowly but surely.... I agree and wonder if we will ever learn the lesson that we aren’t always right as a nation...

 

I just watched episodes 7 and 8 and two things struck me...

 

1. White soldiers in Vietnam waving the confederate flag and what it meant to African American soldiers.... and how some people in our current few middle aged and younger generations think this is just a distraction issue and at the very least dismiss it. When African American soldiers go and fight American wars but are subjected to disrespect like this to me is unconscionable... 

 

2. I never realized how completely fucked the Kent St. and subsequent Jackson St. shootings were...  the fact that the Ohio national guard threatened to shoot again if the students didn’t disperse after they just killed 4 students is simply disgusting to me. Also the fact that 56 % of Americans thought the shooting was justified is just insanity.

 

I worry that Vietnam has a direct correlation between then and our politics today... seeing so many people blindly support things that will either hurt them directly or hurt other Americans. Have we lost our sense of humanity as a nation... and if so... when did it happen and can we fix it?

Governor Rhodes was a piece of work.

 

It's a really good question. On one hand, human nature is pretty constant throughout history. It often comes down to who the leaders are and what they stand for. On the other hand, insofar as regular people go--even with all our flaws--we tend to be human and humane once we strip away a lot of ideology and the influence of propaganda which tends to get in the way. Note how people tend to help each other during all these natural disasters and compare that to our varied responses to political events which are often clouded by our anger and resentment.

 

I will say this. At the time of our founding, our nation was seen as a beacon and inspiration to other similarly minded folks throughout the world. And this was still true through the end of the Civil War. (Read "The Cause of All Nations" by Don Doyle for a nice primer on the US and international relations at the time of our Civil War. Review here.) By the time we get to the Spanish-American War that had pretty much changed towards a more colonial/imperial outlook. What happened in that interval? And that's another good question.

[T-Dub]

6 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

I will say this. At the time of our founding, our nation was seen as a beacon and inspiration to other similarly minded folks throughout the world. And this was still true through the end of the Civil War. (Read "The Cause of All Nations" by Don Doyle for a nice primer on the US and international relations at the time of our Civil War. Review here.) By the time we get to the Spanish-American War that had pretty much changed towards a more colonial/imperial outlook. What happened in that interval? And that's another good question.

 

We ran out of frontier.

[Homer_Rice]

Ken Burns Tries To Explain Vietnam

[T-Dub]

3 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

Ken Burns Tries To Explain Vietnam

 

Good read.  Particularly this bit:

 

The point is that Vietnam wasn’t an aberration. It was simply the most violent case of the norm when countries refused to submit to U.S. domination. That is what the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran was about in 1953. It’s what the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala was about in 1954. It’s what the assassination of Lumumba in Congo was about in 1961. It’s what the bungled Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba was about in 1961. It’s what the invasion of the Dominican Republic was about in 1965. It’s what the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile was about in 1973. Can you see the advantage that context conveys for understanding? That’s precisely what Burns will not do.

 

For me, my view of Burns was tempered back when he made "Jazz According to Wynton Marsalis" 

[Homer_Rice]

13 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Good read.  Particularly this bit:

 

The point is that Vietnam wasn’t an aberration. It was simply the most violent case of the norm when countries refused to submit to U.S. domination. That is what the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran was about in 1953. It’s what the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala was about in 1954. It’s what the assassination of Lumumba in Congo was about in 1961. It’s what the bungled Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba was about in 1961. It’s what the invasion of the Dominican Republic was about in 1965. It’s what the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile was about in 1973. Can you see the advantage that context conveys for understanding? That’s precisely what Burns will not do.

 

For me, my view of Burns was tempered back when he made "Jazz According to Wynton Marsalis" 

Ooh, fun, T-Dub. "Country Blues According to Led Zeppelin."

A Old Colonel Looks at General Kelly.

[fredtoast]

22 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

Ken Burns Tries To Explain Vietnam

Apparently this guy did not even watch the documentary.  Everything he claims Burns omitted was actually in there.  He talked about how our government lied to us. He even pointed out that the United States initially backed the French instead of the DRV based on shared culture and financial motives instead of promoting democracy like the United Sates usually claims to do.  Burns repeatedly emphasized the ridiculous amounts of bombs we dropped compared to previous wars.  Burns talked about agent orange.  Burns talked about the profit motives of the military industrial complex.   All of that was in the documentary.

 

This was a documentary about the history of the Vietnam war and the impact it had on our society at a crucial point in our history.  It was not intended to be a 15 hour screed about how evil the United States is.

 

The United States is not the only country on earth to use military power for political and financial gain.  That is a completely separate discussion.  And that discussion would include the US military and covert intelligence actions in South America and other countries. 

 

Calling Burns a "Master of historical misinformation" for not turning a discussion of the Vietnam conflict into a thesis on colonialism is ridiculous, especially when that was actually included in the documentary.  It is like claiming that every discussion on the Revolutionary War should be about nothing but the fact that many of the founding fathers owned slaves.  Just because a documentary is not a myopic dissertation on one single issue does not mean it is "misinformation".

 

 

 

 

[fredtoast]

19 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

For me, my view of Burns was tempered back when he made "Jazz According to Wynton Marsalis" 

Then you must have never watched that documentary either.  It was excellent.

 

The criticism I read about the Jazz documentary was the same as I see here about the Vietnam piece.  "Burns didn't emphasis my opinion enough therefore it is garbage".  The people who did not like the Jazz series felt that it was too "old school" and did not include enough about the modern fusion, electric, and avant garde movements in jazz.  But the fact is that all of that was included.  I guess people who feel that their opinion is all that matters will just never be happy with anything unless it is just about what they want to hear and nothing else.

[T-Dub]

12 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

A Old Colonel Looks at General Kelly.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence so many young vets are joining these 3% militias or worse.  

[Homer_Rice]

11 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I don't think it's a coincidence so many young vets are joining these 3% militias or worse.  

The Oath Keeper phenomenon is part of the danger, but I am also concerned about just how the modern "silent majority" simply accepts the downward ratcheting of reprehensible behavior, much of it with linchpins to Vietnam.

 

Here's something from Moon of Alabama:

Phoenix 2.0 - CIA To Unleash Vietnam Era Terror Campaign On Afghanistan

[USN Bengal]

Another spin on that 3% thing is being here in the redneck central Virginia region, there is a growing sense of unease amongst the silent majority and a seeming stirring of readiness to act. Major rumors of Antifa taking action on November 4th has seen many that I know arming themselves AND buying tactical gear/survival items... not for defense but for offensive actions. 

 

As the saying goes “Shit just got real”... or so it seems.

 

These are bad times we live in.

[T-Dub]

3 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

Another spin on that 3% thing is being here in the redneck central Virginia region, there is a growing sense of unease amongst the silent majority and a seeming stirring of readiness to act. Major rumors of Antifa taking action on November 4th has seen many that I know arming themselves AND buying tactical gear/survival items... not for defense but for offensive actions. 

 

As the saying goes “Shit just got real”... or so it seems.

 

These are bad times we live in.

 

That is indeed sketchy.  What has AFA done exactly?  Break some windows and get in a fistfight with a few Nazis?  Yet these militia guys are gearing up for what sounds to me closer to a terrorist attack over it.  To protect what, in their minds? Mobs of white supremacists?

 

I've talked about the threat of these militia groups on here in the past & we've continued to ignore them as they grow bigger & bolder. Inevitable that this will end badly but I guess at least it will end. I wonder what sort of end it is they've fantasized for themselves? If they actually take it beyond bullshitting and weekend warrior Tactical Operator cosplay they're going to end up dead or in prison. Hopefully without hurting a bunch of people.

[USN Bengal]

Well I am not talking about militia groups...’I’m talking about people reacting to what they here Antifa is saying they are going to do. Charlottesville was just the most recent asinine action by them. They instigated shot just as much as the Nazi bastards did... I live 45 minutes from there and know many people who witnessed all the bullshit.

 

As as far as I’m concerned, the only fascism I have seen since the election last year is Antifa. They allow no other speech than their own, they have been the rioters, and have been the instigator in most of the altercations they’ve been involved with.

 

The Nazis are who they are, known pieces of shit that need to be exterminated in my opinion. Their fascist rhetoric and actions should be categorized as terrorists as well as Antifa. They are both hate groups who destroy and disrupt innocent people with their actions, and do nothing that is helpful to our society.

 

The white supremacy groups are different than the militias by the way. I know people in militias and have actually been invited to join some. Not my thing, something just not quite right to me with some of those I know about.

 

BTW - don’t underestimate militias and their “tactical cosplay “ as you put it. A metric shit ton of them had years of tactical training in the military. We’re not talking about “Bubba and Cletus” grabbing their shotguns, pitchforks, and moonshine and talking like badasses. I know some very badass people that could really fuck some shit up. The training they go through is better than the military in some aspects... they just don’t have the big weapons that the military does... for the most part.

 

 

[Jamie_B]

On 10/16/2017 at 5:20 PM, Homer_Rice said:

I've been meaning to reply to you, Tigers, about the Marlantes excerpt you posted. What he has to say is quite chilling, imo. His novel, Matterhorn, is a very good read. I'd also suggest another bit of fiction that came out much closer to the end of the war: The 13th Valley, by John Delvecchio.

 

I served with a lot of guys who did tours and have been friends in civvy-life with a lot of Viet vets. Many of them are/were truly fucked up. What Marlantes and others show is that, even for people who have more or less re-assimilated in "socially-acceptable" ways, the dichotomy of that war still lives on in less obvious ways. I would like to have a chat with Marlantes and ask him if his view on human nature is completely pessimistic or if he thinks along the lines of what I think: that humans have the capacity for both great evil and great good. It is heart-breakingly sad what that war did to otherwise fine, decent people.

 

In another portion of the email exchange with my friend we discussed whether or not Vietnam "broke the back" of American society (when combined with other developments during the 60s.) Marlantes puts his finger on one aspect of the dissonance towards the end of the excerpt you posted: maybe we ought to consider that we aren't always right before leaping into these conflicts. We haven't learned that lesson, obviously, so now we have an even more brutal attitude towards American exceptionalism which portends the eventual end of American prominence in world affairs. It won't be soon like tomorrow, but like other "empires" it will happen and it'll be fairly soon, perhaps within the lifetimes of some of the middle-aged and younger folks here. And it's almost certain to be laden with even more unnecessarily broken lives and nations.

I had a history teacher in High School that always said it was Nixon who destroyed our faith in our institutions and that we've been going down that path for a while. Trump imo has taken Nixon's "southern strategy" and updated it for today, add in that he has put people in charge of departments that don't even believe in the mission of that department (let alone are qualified) and we are ripe for something even worse in terms of the faith in our institutions.

[Jamie_B]

On 10/23/2017 at 6:52 PM, T-Dub said:

For me, my view of Burns was tempered back when he made "Jazz According to Wynton Marsalis" 

I only recently became familiar with Burns when he gave that speech last year at Stamford.

But as someone who grew up playing Trumpet, I am a huge Marsalis fan, ... should I watch this?

[Homer_Rice]

13 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

Another spin on that 3% thing is being here in the redneck central Virginia region, there is a growing sense of unease amongst the silent majority and a seeming stirring of readiness to act. Major rumors of Antifa taking action on November 4th has seen many that I know arming themselves AND buying tactical gear/survival items... not for defense but for offensive actions. 

 

As the saying goes “Shit just got real”... or so it seems.

 

These are bad times we live in.

Some more reading:

From Brookings:

 

Should we treat domestic terrorists the way we treat ISIS?: What works—and what doesn’t

 

Background: Frank Kitson (These are direct links to pdf files.)

 

Gangs and Countergangs

Low Intensity Operations

 

[Homer_Rice]

1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

I only recently became familiar with Burns when he gave that speech last year at Stamford.

But as someone who grew up playing Trumpet, I am a huge Marsalis fan, ... should I watch this?

Yes, do so. Anything Burns does is worth watching; he's a fine storyteller.

[USN Bengal]

2 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

I had a history teacher in High School that always said it was Nixon who destroyed our faith in our institutions and that we've been going down that path for a while. Trump imo has taken Nixon's "southern strategy" and updated it for today, add in that he has put people in charge of departments that don't even believe in the mission of that department (let alone are qualified) and we are ripe for something even worse in terms of the faith in our institutions.

The only reason people still had faith in our institutions is that they were ignorant to the truth of what America is really all about. Think about it... do you really believe that ANY persons in charge of their departments actually believe the mission of said departments?

 

I think the only thing they care about is how much money they can make, how much power they have, and how long they can keep getting rich off the sheeple of America.

[USN Bengal]

40 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

Yes, do so. Anything Burns does is worth watching; he's a fine storyteller.

Homer is spot on with his assessment of Burns.

[Jamie_B]

3 minutes ago, USN Bengal said:

The only reason people still had faith in our institutions is that they were ignorant to the truth of what America is really all about. Think about it... do you really believe that ANY persons in charge of their departments actually believe the mission of said departments?

 

I think the only thing they care about is how much money they can make, how much power they have, and how long they can keep getting rich off the sheeple of America.

I guess I'm not that jaded.

 

I mean I realize that alot of politicians are in it for the money, but I cant say I believe all of them are, I do believe even if they are in the minority right now, that there are some principled politicians.

 

But I was speaking more about the people running said agencies, as an example when I worked in the same building as James Clapper not one person ever thought he didn't believe in the mission of the DNI.

 

Trump has put people in charge of agencies that dont believe in the mission of the agency, as an example our head of the EPA, Scott, Pruitt, is openly hostile to the idea of climate change, or Rick Perry who when he ran for President said he would get rid of the depeartment of energy that he currently runs.

Stuff like that.

 

 

 

As far as Burns' Jazz stuff, it wont ruin my positive view of Marsalis will it?

[USN Bengal]

20 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

I guess I'm not that jaded.

 

I mean I realize that alot of politicians are in it for the money, but I cant say I believe all of them are, I do believe even if they are in the minority right now, that there are some principled politicians.

 

But I was speaking more about the people running said agencies, as an example when I worked in the same building as James Clapper not one person ever thought he didn't believe in the mission of the DNI.

 

Trump has put people in charge of agencies that dont believe in the mission of the agency, as an example our head of the EPA, Scott, Pruitt, is openly hostile to the idea of climate change, or Rick Perry who when he ran for President said he would get rid of the depeartment of energy that he currently runs.

Stuff like that.

 

 

 

As far as Burns' Jazz stuff, it wont ruin my positive view of Marsalis will it?

I am talking about those running agencies as well. My late father in law was quite literally one of the founders of the EPA, and he was passionate about it. He spoke at length about those put in charge of it, as well as other agencies... basically said that they were talking heads who didn't give a damn, all they wanted was to look good, make money, and have power. He was in government service from 1962 until 2015.