Will We Make the Playoffs this Year?

[omgdrdoom]

50 minutes ago, schotzee said:

Reset decade later. Definitely time for coaching change.

Time for a-lot-of-stuff change.

 

It sucks to say this but I don't think we see consistent success again with our "core" aka Dunlap, Atkins, A.J., Burfict.

 

We finally thought we'd win the big one then our QB broke his thumb toward the end of a borderline MVP caliber season. What do we do after that? Let his weapons walk, let our ball hawk FS walk, and then watch the OC that made it happen leave just to make a lazy internal OC hire, and then stumble around for another season until we lose our best 2 linemen and proceed to get destroyed in the trenches the following season and have the coaches acting like nobody saw this coming. Drafting an undersized, injured receiver didn't seem to help out very much, but who's surprised?

 

Is it a coincidence that we looked our best (on offense) with Hue, MLJ, Sanu, mostly-non-broken Eifert, and actual linemen all on the team? I don't think it is.

 

I know that we're just fans and if you put any of us in Mike Browns seat that we'd run the team to the ground in some way too, but there have been some decisions made that anyone with a functioning brain should realize are terrible ideas. It's almost like they're intentionally sabotaging the team with this shit. I've said it in the past I don't think losing each individual player was a gigantic loss, but the collection of losing them when we did really hurt the offense. If we kept 1 WR and 1 linemen over the past 2 years I think you see entirely different results right now.

 

Andy/McScoots

Mixon/Gio/Hill

Green/MLJ/Boyd/Malone/Erickson

Whitworth/Boling/Bodine/Hopkins(or draft pick)/Ogbuehi

Kroft/Uzomah

 

HC: Vance Joseph

OC: Anyone but Zampese

Assistant to the regional head coach managing director's assistant: Not Paul Alexander

[Champ Kind]

Unless both of our "fearful" leaders are replaced, we don't stand a chance at competing for anything. Yes, I do mean Marv Lewis, and Andy Dalton. Everyone knows why Lewis should be gone and why he isn't. But people still make every excuse in the book for Andy. He could have thrown for 350 and 3 TD's with 0 INT's for all I care. When you put together a 4th quarter like he did, your team will not be successful. Take some shots to #18 for crying out loud. No, he chose to throw to Cody FUCKING Core on his one downfield attempt of the qtr. I don't care if AJ is triple-covered he has the best chance of coming down with a big play. Some games it looks like he might be able to avoid pressure, but when he faces the Stealers, he stays in the pocket and caves like a little bitch. I could avoided the Watt sack. And finally, for the love of God and all things holy, how on earth can you claim that you are trying to win a game when, on 4th and 3 with receivers all over the field, you purposely throw the ball out of bounds to avoid possibly throwing your 3rd INT of the game. That's just selfish, shitty football from the quarterback position. He is a world class choke artist that can only win games that don't mean shit. PERIOD!!!

[|SF2|]

[|schotzee|]

7 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Lol. He would probably take that job over the chance to coach any team truth be told. 

[omgdrdoom]

6 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

Unless both of our "fearful" leaders are replaced, we don't stand a chance at competing for anything. Yes, I do mean Marv Lewis, and Andy Dalton. Everyone knows why Lewis should be gone and why he isn't. But people still make every excuse in the book for Andy. He could have thrown for 350 and 3 TD's with 0 INT's for all I care. When you put together a 4th quarter like he did, your team will not be successful. Take some shots to #18 for crying out loud. No, he chose to throw to Cody FUCKING Core on his one downfield attempt of the qtr. I don't care if AJ is triple-covered he has the best chance of coming down with a big play. Some games it looks like he might be able to avoid pressure, but when he faces the Stealers, he stays in the pocket and caves like a little bitch. I could avoided the Watt sack. And finally, for the love of God and all things holy, how on earth can you claim that you are trying to win a game when, on 4th and 3 with receivers all over the field, you purposely throw the ball out of bounds to avoid possibly throwing your 3rd INT of the game. That's just selfish, shitty football from the quarterback position. He is a world class choke artist that can only win games that don't mean shit. PERIOD!!!

You say that until he throws into triple coverage and then 20 others will complain that he sucks because he forces it to Green in triple coverage. He sucks when he forces it to AJ, he sucks when he doesn't, he sucks when he does anything good or bad. You even said yourself that you don't care if he throws for 350 yards, 3 TDs, and no turnovers. No matter what he does, he sucks and needs replaced. This is a sad reality with Bengals fans. We ran Carson out of town, fuck it, let's run another franchise QB away.

 

Andy has been running for his life this season, our OL is historically bad. My biggest issue with the dude is that he gets rattled and will create phantom pressure when he starts getting hit in a game. Other than that, there isn't much else he's doing wrong right now, he doesn't have a chance to throw half the time and his receivers aren't getting any separation whatsoever for some reason this year. He throws some ducks occasionally but so does every other QB in the league. He needs to sack up and stop creating pressure that isn't really there and getting happy feet when he has a clean pocket, but let's be honest, how often is the pocket clean for more than a split second after the snap?

[|SF2|]

23 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

You say that until he throws into triple coverage and then 20 others will complain that he sucks because he forces it to Green in triple coverage. He sucks when he forces it to AJ, he sucks when he doesn't, he sucks when he does anything good or bad. You even said yourself that you don't care if he throws for 350 yards, 3 TDs, and no turnovers. No matter what he does, he sucks and needs replaced. This is a sad reality with Bengals fans. We ran Carson out of town, fuck it, let's run another franchise QB away.

 

Andy has been running for his life this season, our OL is historically bad. My biggest issue with the dude is that he gets rattled and will create phantom pressure when he starts getting hit in a game. Other than that, there isn't much else he's doing wrong right now, he doesn't have a chance to throw half the time and his receivers aren't getting any separation whatsoever for some reason this year. He throws some ducks occasionally but so does every other QB in the league. He needs to sack up and stop creating pressure that isn't really there and getting happy feet when he has a clean pocket, but let's be honest, how often is the pocket clean for more than a split second after the snap?

We didn't run Carson out of town.  The fans had ZERO to do with it.  The organization let Ochocinco and other players run rampent and after a 4-12 season, he and his wife wanted out of Cincy.   He figured out Marvin and company long before the rest of us. 

 

Dalton is an average QB, period. He is an Alex Smith clone.  Not bad, not great,  just average.   Add in a coaching staff that has shown no ability to make effective in game adjustments for the better part of 15 years and what you get is the 2nd half we had yesterday.  Dalton is NOT Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Tom Brady.  He isn't going to change the play much at the LOS because he simply isn't that good (HOF good).   Doesn't mean we can't win games with him but he does NOTHING special so you better have very good components around him.  

[omgdrdoom]

1 minute ago, SF2 said:

We didn't run Carson out of town.  The fans had ZERO to do with it.  The organization let Ochocinco and other players run rampent and after a 4-12 season, he and his wife wanted out of Cincy.   He figured out Marvin and company long before the rest of us. 

 

Dalton is an average QB, period. He is an Alex Smith clone.  Not bad, not great,  just average.   Add in a coaching staff that has shown no ability to make effective in game adjustments for the better part of 15 years and what you get is the 2nd half we had yesterday.  Dalton is NOT Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Tom Brady.  He isn't going to change the play much at the LOS because he simply isn't that good (HOF good).   Doesn't mean we can't win games with him but he does NOTHING special so you better have very good components around him.  

I don't mean that we were literally the sole reason Carson wanted out. I'm saying that the fans cried and cried about Carson sucking and he was the problem and he needed replaced and blah blah blah until he leaves, then we do the same thing to the next franchise QB that we're lucky enough to draft. I don't think Carson, Andy, or anyone else even knows that any of us exist, I'm saying we ran him out of town as in we finally got what we wanted and got rid of that darn, pesky QB that was costing us games. How many other QBs from the 2011 draft class are still employed? We struck gold with Andy compared to the other highly ranked QB prospects when we really needed one. The fans wanted change with Carson, well we sure got it, but now everyone is just bitching about the next man up. Unfortunately that's how it goes with a lot of football fans, QBs are easy to throw under the bus.

 

I actually think Alex Smith is the better QB, but that's not the point of this. I agree that he isn't Peyton Manning, but how many of those guys exist? I want the next Tom Brady on our team too, but that's easier said than done. We shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and say fuck it, but at the same time you can't cut/trade/bench every QB that isn't Peyton Manning. If you do that you just become the Browns.

 

One thing I'll say is that you're absolutely incorrect about Andy not being good enough to change the play at the line. That's just false my friend and I'm not sure why you'd say that. Did you watch 2015? He does it every year, but that season stands out the most because not only was our offense very good, but we ran a decent amount of hurry up along with Andy having more freedom to change the plays.

 

You better have very good components around any QB to win the ultimate prize. I made a thread about it before and got bitched at for it, yet NOBODY came in to refute my point. Go ahead and bash Andy for not being able to do a lot without good players around him, but please entertain me and tell me all about the QBs that are constantly successful without a good supporting cast. I won't hold my breath because there aren't many examples available.

[Champ Kind]

1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

You say that until he throws into triple coverage and then 20 others will complain that he sucks because he forces it to Green in triple coverage. He sucks when he forces it to AJ, he sucks when he doesn't, he sucks when he does anything good or bad. You even said yourself that you don't care if he throws for 350 yards, 3 TDs, and no turnovers. No matter what he does, he sucks and needs replaced. This is a sad reality with Bengals fans. We ran Carson out of town, fuck it, let's run another franchise QB away.

 

Andy has been running for his life this season, our OL is historically bad. My biggest issue with the dude is that he gets rattled and will create phantom pressure when he starts getting hit in a game. Other than that, there isn't much else he's doing wrong right now, he doesn't have a chance to throw half the time and his receivers aren't getting any separation whatsoever for some reason this year. He throws some ducks occasionally but so does every other QB in the league. He needs to sack up and stop creating pressure that isn't really there and getting happy feet when he has a clean pocket, but let's be honest, how often is the pocket clean for more than a split second after the snap?

He consistently throw high across the middle, plays scared, and shits down his leg in big games. I'd love to see his stats in games that mean shit vs. games that don't mean shit. Face it bro, he ain't very good.

[omgdrdoom]

8 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

He consistently throw high across the middle, plays scared, and shits down his leg in big games. I'd love to see his stats in games that mean shit vs. games that don't mean shit. Face it bro, he ain't very good.

I don't think Andy is a great QB, but face it bro, no one is looking good behind this trash heap OL.

 

Anyone that isn't a teenager right now has watched this team do this same dumb shit against good teams and in the 2nd half of games since before Andy Dalton arrived. But yeah, fuck Andy, he sucks, get him out of here, blah blah blah.

[|SF2|]

1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

I don't mean that we were literally the sole reason Carson wanted out. I'm saying that the fans cried and cried about Carson sucking and he was the problem and he needed replaced and blah blah blah until he leaves, then we do the same thing to the next franchise QB that we're lucky enough to draft. I don't think Carson, Andy, or anyone else even knows that any of us exist, I'm saying we ran him out of town as in we finally got what we wanted and got rid of that darn, pesky QB that was costing us games. How many other QBs from the 2011 draft class are still employed? We struck gold with Andy compared to the other highly ranked QB prospects when we really needed one. The fans wanted change with Carson, well we sure got it, but now everyone is just bitching about the next man up. Unfortunately that's how it goes with a lot of football fans, QBs are easy to throw under the bus.

 

I actually think Alex Smith is the better QB, but that's not the point of this. I agree that he isn't Peyton Manning, but how many of those guys exist? I want the next Tom Brady on our team too, but that's easier said than done. We shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and say fuck it, but at the same time you can't cut/trade/bench every QB that isn't Peyton Manning. If you do that you just become the Browns.

 

One thing I'll say is that you're absolutely incorrect about Andy not being good enough to change the play at the line. That's just false my friend and I'm not sure why you'd say that. Did you watch 2015? He does it every year, but that season stands out the most because not only was our offense very good, but we ran a decent amount of hurry up along with Andy having more freedom to change the plays.

 

You better have very good components around any QB to win the ultimate prize. I made a thread about it before and got bitched at for it, yet NOBODY came in to refute my point. Go ahead and bash Andy for not being able to do a lot without good players around him, but please entertain me and tell me all about the QBs that are constantly successful without a good supporting cast. I won't hold my breath because there aren't many examples available.

I think you and I are in full agreement to be honest.  I don't want Andy gone and I totally get that he is not in the same class as Manning, Brees and Brady,..few are.  Just look at the next best thing Matt Ryan this year, he is back to being average Matt.  I don't think Dalton is the problem. 

 

The problem is our coaching. You alluded to Dalton's performance in 2015 and how he had this team humming.  Quick tempo, changing the plays at the line, in the MVP discussion then he gets hurt on a fluke play.  He comes back last year and doesn't even look like the same QB.  Why?  COACHING. Hue Jackson let Andy play,  he trusted him to make good decisions out there.   Zampese did not.  Why did Marvin let Zampese change the offense and put on leash on Dalton?    11 of the 13 games Andy started in 2015  we had over 350 yards of offense.  We were 7th in scoring.   

 

An average coach can win a Super Bowl with a great team.  Mike Ditka and the Bears, Billick with the Ravens , Gruden at Tampa Bay

A great coach can win a Super Bowl with a good team as long as he has a solid QB. Not HOF, solid.  Think Coughlin at NY Giants, Carroll at Seattle.

A good coach can win a Super Bowl with a HOF QB and decent team. Favre and Rodgers at G Bay, Brees in New Orleans and the piss towel wavers. 

A great coach with a HOF QB and good team is scary.  New England

 

Marvin Lewis is an average coach at best.  Average coaches don't accomplish much in the NFL other than the occasional playoff appearance unless they have a generationally great defense.  He has had some regular season success but most of it can be attributed to his coordinators and overall team talent, not his coaching ability.  Lewis has never been the difference maker, it has been guys like Gruden and Zimmer. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jason]

2 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

It sucks to say this but I don't think we see consistent success again with our "core" aka Dunlap, Atkins, A.J., Burfict.

 

Depends on how long it takes to fix the O-line. This team with a competent line would win a lot of games. 

[omgdrdoom]

7 minutes ago, SF2 said:

The problem is our coaching

 

 

Honestly that about sums it up along with our owner if you can throw him in there too.

 

I've mentioned before that while I don't find Andy to be the problem here, go ahead and get a new QB if we can find someone that's better or has potential to be better, I'm not in love with the guy or anything. I just don't see the damn point without a coaching overhaul. We've seen what Marvin can do with 2 totally different styles of franchise QB, 2 different styles of top tier defense, 2 different styles of elite WR1 play, etc. etc. It's not like there's a big mystery with "wow can you imagine what Marvin could do with x, y, and z instead of a, b, and c?" We've seen him with complete roster overhauls and some damn GOOD rosters at that.

 

We've had the same problems for years, but Mike won't pay for an OL, Marvin can't coach big games with any consistency, and Paul Alexander is a fucking fuck. At times I say go ahead and trade Andy and get a new QB so I can at least say "told ya so" when the same issues come up with our 3rd franchise QB since the early 2000's.

[fredtoast]

2 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

 Face it bro, he ain't very good.

Since Andy arrived in 2011 our running game ranks 27th in the league in average per carry.  Despite having such a weak ground game behind him Dalton has been very accomplished.

 

-Only 5 QBs in the league have won more regular season games. 

 

-Dalton is in the top ten in passing yards and passing tds since 2011

 

-Dalton is 14th in passer rating among the 35 active QBs with at least 1000 attempts since 2011. 

 

-According to ProFootballReference.com Dalton is 3rd in "4th quarter comebacks" (15) and 5th in "game winning drives" (18). 

 

-Cam Newton is the only QB in the league with more rushing tds than Dalton since 2011.

 

-Among the 18 QBs who have at least 2500 pass attempts since 2011 only Drew Brees has fewer fumbles than Dalton.

 

Dalton is not elite, and he has looked bad in the postseason, but overall he is a pretty damn good QB.

[|SF2|]

18 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Since Andy arrived in 2011 our running game ranks 27th in the league in average per carry.  Despite having such a weak ground game behind him Dalton has been very accomplished.

 

-Only 5 QBs in the league have won more regular season games. 

 

-Dalton is in the top ten in passing yards and passing tds since 2011

 

-Dalton is 14th in passer rating among the 35 active QBs with at least 1000 attempts since 2011. 

 

-According to ProFootballReference.com Dalton is 3rd in "4th quarter comebacks" (15) and 5th in "game winning drives" (18). 

 

-Cam Newton is the only QB in the league with more rushing tds than Dalton since 2011.

 

-Among the 18 QBs who have at least 2500 pass attempts since 2011 only Drew Brees has fewer fumbles than Dalton.

 

Dalton is not elite, and he has looked bad in the postseason, but overall he is a pretty damn good QB.

Like I have said, he is not the problem.  He showed he could be damn good in 2015 when given time and FREEDOM.  This year it looks like he simply runs the plays called and hopes for the best.   The real issue was promoting Zampese to O Coordinator.   This reminds me of the military.  Guy hangs around long enough and he eventually gets promoted and given a leadership position he sucks at.   Most of us have met that guy or girl at work as well. 

 

The NFL is NOT where you would expect that to happen since head coaches are usually on the hot seat the moment they sign a contract.  They can't afford to make NICE promotions. 

[fluhartz]

13 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Like I have said, he is not the problem.  He showed he could be damn good in 2015 when given time and FREEDOM.  This year it looks like he simply runs the plays called and hopes for the best.   The real issue was promoting Zampese to O Coordinator.   This reminds me of the military.  Guy hangs around long enough and he eventually gets promoted and given a leadership position he sucks at.   Most of us have met that guy or girl at work as well. 

 

The NFL is NOT where you would expect that to happen since head coaches are usually on the hot seat the moment they sign a contract.  They can't afford to make NICE promotions. 

 

 

not an issue when MB is the owner

[omgdrdoom]

Freddy the stats that back up Andy's play are nice to see but there's definitely some misleading stuff going on there. Things like "top 10 since 2011" is cool I guess but there are guys that have been drafted in the past 4 or 5 years that are clearly better QBs or prospects than Andy and they haven't had the longevity to be up there with volume stats over a period of time yet.

 

Andy is definitely a decent to good QB though and I don't know why some try to act like 2015 never happened. He's proven that if you give him a decent coordinator and some talent around him that he can play like some of the top tier QBs. It's very, very, very rare to see a QB do it on his own so I don't think it's an insult to say that Andy needs other good players around him to win games and to look good statistically. Some like to use that as an insult, I just see it as a reality for every QB that's ever played the game.

[Champ Kind]

Andy Dalton will never win us a playoff game. The closest we ever came in his career was when we had an inexperienced backup come in and not turn it over. Andy is a choke. He's had 5 chances to win us a playoff game fellas. 5! None of those teams that beat us even made it to an AFC championship game. Andy is a soft, scared, happy footed QB that stinks in big games. Take all those stats and rankings and blow them out your ass. HE Stinks! He single-handedly lost us the Texans game this year. His stats don't begin to show the quality of effort he puts forth when it counts. Mediocre at best. But in my eyes, garbage!!! People said he was tough cause he limped through the Bills game. LOL. CHild please! Our QB is anything but tough. He threw the damn ball out of bounds on purpose on 4th and 3 on the last drive of the game. Someone PLEASE try to make an excuse for that! Please! That garbage doesn't show up on the stat sheet. And don't give me the poor O-Line excuse. Russell Wilson hasn't had a good line yet. Until McAaron starts or somebody else, I'm done.

[omgdrdoom]

6 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

Andy Dalton will never win us a playoff game. The closest we ever came in his career was when we had an inexperienced backup come in and not turn it over. Andy is a choke. He's had 5 chances to win us a playoff game fellas. 5! None of those teams that beat us even made it to an AFC championship game. Andy is a soft, scared, happy footed QB that stinks in big games. Take all those stats and rankings and blow them out your ass. HE Stinks! He single-handedly lost us the Texans game this year. His stats don't begin to show the quality of effort he puts forth when it counts. Mediocre at best. But in my eyes, garbage!!! People said he was tough cause he limped through the Bills game. LOL. CHild please! Our QB is anything but tough. He threw the damn ball out of bounds on purpose on 4th and 3 on the last drive of the game. Someone PLEASE try to make an excuse for that! Please! That garbage doesn't show up on the stat sheet. And don't give me the poor O-Line excuse. Russell Wilson hasn't had a good line yet. Until McAaron starts or somebody else, I'm done.

McScooter threw a pick and fumbled the ball 3 fucking times for fuck's sake. Luckily we only lost 1 of them.

 

This kind of post is when you know people don't like Andy for the simple fact that he's Andy.

[Champ Kind]

Compare his and Andy's playoff stats and tell me who wins.... I'll wait...

[Champ Kind]

7 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

McScooter threw a pick and fumbled the ball 3 fucking times for fuck's sake. Luckily we only lost 1 of them.

 

This kind of post is when you know people don't like Andy for the simple fact that he's Andy.

And people like you that make excuses for this clown are why everyone laughs at our fan base too. HE STINKS!!!

[fredtoast]

25 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 there are guys that have been drafted in the past 4 or 5 years that are clearly better QBs or prospects than Andy and they haven't had the longevity to be up there with volume stats over a period of time yet.

 

Only ones ahead of him in passer rating (non volume stat) are Wilson and Cousins.  Currently Carr has the exact same rating as Dalton (88.7).  Mariota will soon have 1000 attempts.

 

Prescott has a ridiculous passer rating, but I want to see him do it a few years in a row.

 

Who else has been drafted after 2011 that is clearly better than Dalton?

[omgdrdoom]

2 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

1 turnover chief! Compare his and Andy's playoff stats and tell me who wins.... I'll wait...

lol

 

I honestly hope you're just trolling me at this point and not being serious. C'mon, man. 1 INT + 1 fumble lost equals.......what number? I'll wait.

Just now, Champ Kind said:

And people like you that make excuses for this clown are why everyone laughs at our fan base too. HE STINKS!!!

I don't make excuses for him, Andy has played VERY poorly at times, especially in primetime and the playoffs. No excuses from me when he shits the bed and throws erratic passes and feels phantom pressure as he does at times.

 

I only defend him when people say "he stinks", because he's proven to be at least an average QB. He's been much better at times and also worse, but his overall body of work suggests average at worst and objectively above average statistically.

[Champ Kind]

And we're still making excuses. JT has every record fore the Buckeyes too, but it's the same thing. He shits down his leg in big games.

[omgdrdoom]

1 minute ago, fredtoast said:

Only ones ahead of him in passer rating (non volume stat) are Wilson and Cousins.  Currently Carr has the exact same rating as Dalton (88.7).  Mariota will soon have 1000 attempts.

 

Prescott has a ridiculous passer rating, but I want to see him do it a few years in a row.

 

Who else has been drafted after 2011 that is clearly better than Dalton?

I think Carson Wentz is better. A lot of people will say Jameis Winston is better. Carr is better regardless of their passer rating stat being the same. Obviously some of these guys need to do it longer but I'd take at least 2 of those 3 over Andy if given the chance to start a new team or some other similar scenario. I have to leave work right now but I'll get back to this more later.

[Champ Kind]

2 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

lol

 

I honestly hope you're just trolling me at this point and not being serious. C'mon, man. 1 INT + 1 fumble lost equals.......what number? I'll wait.

I don't make excuses for him, Andy has played VERY poorly at times, especially in primetime and the playoffs. No excuses from me when he shits the bed and throws erratic passes and feels phantom pressure as he does at times.

 

I only defend him when people say "he stinks", because he's proven to be at least an average QB. He's been much better at times and also worse, but his overall body of work suggests average at worst and objectively above average statistically.

I'll take an average QB that clutches up and wins big games over a chicken shit that throws it out of bounds on 4th and 3. I'll switch it up for you. HE BLOWS!!!