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Bills Bengals; Good, Bad, and Ugly


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3 hours ago, HavePityPlease said:

I saw some, but the bad one was the third down just before Buffalo scored their TD... Lawson got mauled as he chased Taylor, from behind, right in front of the ref... and nothing.  I was spending the rest of the game convinced that blatant non-call was going to cost us the game.  Needless to say I was shocked that they called the one on McCoy's negated long run.

There were at least two holds on every play for them. Not just passing...EVERY play. For NFL "almost let them play", it was about as close as it got--but they also manufactured many penalties out of thin air. About the only consistency was that there were make up calls after failed calls. The McCoy one was a make up call. This isn't officiating, it's anarchy.

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14 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

There were at least two holds on every play for them. Not just passing...EVERY play. For NFL "almost let them play", it was about as close as it got--but they also manufactured many penalties out of thin air. About the only consistency was that there were make up calls after failed calls. The McCoy one was a make up call. This isn't officiating, it's anarchy.

 

Way I see it, we're left with one of two conclusions;

 

1. A sports league worth billions is incapable of fielding officiating crews that can call a game to at least the same standard as your local JV high school volunteer refs

 

2. Calling the game fairly and consistently is at best a secondary goal to.. ratings, points shaving, take your pick.

 

 

We can debate the "why" of it, but I can't accept the "blind, idiot refs" excuse. 

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Quite true. I would say choice #2 would be the most accurate, generally.

 

Although, to give these on-field anarchists some benefit of compassion, they are saddled by this corrupt league with more regulation and rules than the IRS code. No human or anything short of artificial intelligence could consistently and fairly adjudicate that mess. 

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3 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

 

Although, to give these on-field anarchists some benefit of compassion, they are saddled by this corrupt league with more regulation and rules than the IRS code. No human or anything short of artificial intelligence could consistently and fairly adjudicate that mess. 

 

I think that's by design; the ambiguity gives them the ability to throw a flag at any time and find a reason somewhere in the rule book.

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All of these claims that the officiating is fixed by the league is absurd.

 

Look at all the ex-NFL coaches who have written books after the retired.  You think all of these guys are just going to remain silent for their entire lives about a league policy that ruined their reputations or cost them multi-million dollar jobs?

 

There is just way too much money and pride on the line for people to remain silent about any sort of "fix".  A refs call can cost betters or books millions of dollars and players/coaches can lose their jobs over wins and losses.  No way thye keep all of the losers quiet if their is a blatant fix.

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FWIW... I remember a retired basketball ref once talking about MJ. People talked about how he constantly got good calls.

The ref said something to the effect of "If Jordan does that... It's Jordan. He CAN do that. If I see Danny Ainge try the same thing, I'm going to be watching his feet and not the defender's hands as much. Hence, Ainge is going to get fewer calls being fouled and is more likely to get called for a travel. That's just human nature."

Not right or wrong, just human nature. If a crap TE stops Dunlap, the ref is more likely to assume he ONLY made the play by holding if it's close. If the same guy stops Mragus Hunt... Well, like Hunt would have made that play.

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8 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

FWIW... I remember a retired basketball ref once talking about MJ. People talked about how he constantly got good calls.

The ref said something to the effect of "If Jordan does that... It's Jordan. He CAN do that. If I see Danny Ainge try the same thing, I'm going to be watching his feet and not the defender's hands as much. Hence, Ainge is going to get fewer calls being fouled and is more likely to get called for a travel. That's just human nature."

Not right or wrong, just human nature. If a crap TE stops Dunlap, the ref is more likely to assume he ONLY made the play by holding if it's close. If the same guy stops Mragus Hunt... Well, like Hunt would have made that play.

Go watch film of the '95 MLB playoffs.  Braves pitchers got inches off the plate all the time.  Of course their names were Maddox, Galvine and Smoltz.  I am convinced that playoff series led to the video review of umpires and their strike zones.

 

Referees are human, and some are incompetent. 

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9 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

Only NBA refs fix games, Fred. :PleaseDontSayThat-min:

He wasn't doing it for the league.  There was no broad conspiracy.  Just one guy throwing some key calls.

 

I am sure there are college players taking money to shave points.  But that does not mean the NCAA is controlling who wins games.

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23 hours ago, fredtoast said:

All of these claims that the officiating is fixed by the league is absurd.

 

Look at all the ex-NFL coaches who have written books after the retired.  You think all of these guys are just going to remain silent for their entire lives about a league policy that ruined their reputations or cost them multi-million dollar jobs?

 

There is just way too much money and pride on the line for people to remain silent about any sort of "fix".  A refs call can cost betters or books millions of dollars and players/coaches can lose their jobs over wins and losses.  No way thye keep all of the losers quiet if their is a blatant fix.

Hey Freddy, shhh...the league is rigged and the Bengals are hated.....just not the past two weeks.  Whenever the next loss comes, it will be rigged again.  Shhhhhh..dont tell anyone.

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On 10/10/2017 at 9:19 AM, fredtoast said:

All of these claims that the officiating is fixed by the league is absurd.

 

Look at all the ex-NFL coaches who have written books after the retired.  You think all of these guys are just going to remain silent for their entire lives about a league policy that ruined their reputations or cost them multi-million dollar jobs?

 

There is just way too much money and pride on the line for people to remain silent about any sort of "fix".  A refs call can cost betters or books millions of dollars and players/coaches can lose their jobs over wins and losses.  No way thye keep all of the losers quiet if their is a blatant fix.

I honestly think they intentionally don't call a lot of holding penalties but it USUALLY goes both ways.   There is all kinds of inside the shoulder pads holding going on at the line of scrimmage.  Its no secret. 

 

The reason it is being allowed is two-fold:  1 The NFL knows that fans want to see offense.  The quickest way to prevent this is to let the QBs get hit a lot and get knocked out of the game. Back-ups and or injured starters (Bradford, RGIII) are game killers.

 

I remember in 2009 when our defense carried us to the playoffs the year Palmer came back after his injury.   He could barely throw 25 yards and our offense was basically Rudi Johnson and throwing quick outs to Chad and letting him run after catch.   The offense was boring and bad.  The stadium was half full most of the season.  We went 10-6.

 

The other reason is there are simply too many flags already.  These games are almost unwatchable sometimes with 1 to 2 minutes between plays for reviews and penalty discussion.  More penalties will not help. 

 

My opinion but I am always right. 

 

 

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On 10/10/2017 at 2:19 PM, fredtoast said:

All of these claims that the officiating is fixed by the league is absurd.

 

Look at all the ex-NFL coaches who have written books after the retired.  You think all of these guys are just going to remain silent for their entire lives about a league policy that ruined their reputations or cost them multi-million dollar jobs?

 

There is just way too much money and pride on the line for people to remain silent about any sort of "fix".  A refs call can cost betters or books millions of dollars and players/coaches can lose their jobs over wins and losses.  No way thye keep all of the losers quiet if their is a blatant fix.

1. You don't need to involve coaches or even make them aware. Ditto players.

2. You don't need all the refs to be corrupt, just a few.

3. It's not the amount of penalties, or type, it's the timing/placement. To wit;

 

Bengals 2nd and short on our own 30 yard line. Get a roughing the passer that's obviously rubbish. First down at midfield ish.

A.N.Other team 3rd and long at our 40 yard line, defensive holding that's rubbish, 5 yard penalty to bring them into FG range and a new set of downs.

Both are bad calls, so they back up the NFL mantra of it all evening out in the end. Except clearly one is a meaningless call and the other can decide a game. Or a points spread.

 

Next time a team who are the unfavorite (like us) suddenly bust an unexpected big play, watch how late the holding flag appears. No holding whilst it looked like we were going to be stuffed at the line/gain 2 yards. The moment the play breaks into the open a late holding flag magically appears. Or a BS PI call. Or a "coach on the sidelines impeding an official that isn't remotely visible on any replay". Whenever there is a fumble scramble there is usually a flag so that the head ref can see who ended up with possession and work out a vague penalty from there depending upon whom it benefits.

 

So, once again, don't look at all the penalties as a total. Look at how often a borderline call is made on a play that can decide the outcome of a game/spread/ESPN story.

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24 minutes ago, VonBlade said:

1. You don't need to involve coaches or even make them aware. Ditto players..

But if it is obvious to you as a fan who does not break down every play of every game dozens of times don't you think the coaches would notice and complain?  At least after they have retired.  Even most of the "good" coaches have been fired at least once. Are you really saying that the refs just made up the sideline call against the Bengals and Marvin said nothing?

 

In fact, if you were really honest with yourself you would see missed calls go in favor of the Bengals from time to time.

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14 hours ago, SF2 said:

I honestly think they intentionally don't call a lot of holding penalties but it USUALLY goes both ways.   There is all kinds of inside the shoulder pads holding going on at the line of scrimmage.  Its no secret. 

 

The reason it is being allowed is two-fold:  1 The NFL knows that fans want to see offense.  The quickest way to prevent this is to let the QBs get hit a lot and get knocked out of the game. Back-ups and or injured starters (Bradford, RGIII) are game killers.

 

I remember in 2009 when our defense carried us to the playoffs the year Palmer came back after his injury.   He could barely throw 25 yards and our offense was basically Rudi Johnson and throwing quick outs to Chad and letting him run after catch.   The offense was boring and bad.  The stadium was half full most of the season.  We went 10-6.

 

The other reason is there are simply too many flags already.  These games are almost unwatchable sometimes with 1 to 2 minutes between plays for reviews and penalty discussion.  More penalties will not help. 

 

My opinion but I am always right. 

 

 

Don't you mean Cedric Benson? Didn't Rudi get cut before that season started?

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49 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

But if it is obvious to you as a fan who does not break down every play of every game dozens of times don't you think the coaches would notice and complain?  At least after they have retired.  Even most of the "good" coaches have been fired at least once. Are you really saying that the refs just made up the sideline call against the Bengals and Marvin said nothing?

 

In fact, if you were really honest with yourself you would see missed calls go in favor of the Bengals from time to time.

mmmmhmmmm.  right on.  But, that's the whiny society we live in today......me, me, me why me.

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5 hours ago, SF2 said:

I remember in 2009 when our defense carried us to the playoffs the year Palmer came back after his injury.   He could barely throw 25 yards and our offense was basically Rudi Johnson and throwing quick outs to Chad and letting him run after catch.   The offense was boring and bad.  The stadium was half full most of the season.  We went 11-5.

 

 

Kind of OT, but the '09 offense was fine before Chris Henry got injured.

 

Through the first 9 weeks (8 games) with Chris Henry the Bengals were 12th in the league in total offense (348.8 per game), over the final 8 games they were dead last (269.5 avg).  Through the first 8 games the Bengals were 10th in the league in td passes (14) and 13th in passer rating (89.5).  Over the last 8 games they ranked 27th in passing tds (7), 30th in passing yards (1104), and their rating dropped to 74.7.

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22 hours ago, fredtoast said:

He wasn't doing it for the league.  There was no broad conspiracy.  Just one guy throwing some key calls.

 

I am sure there are college players taking money to shave points.  But that does not mean the NCAA is controlling who wins games.

Do you have a habit with splitting semi-colons? Did the Nick meme perhaps indicate a tongue-in-cheek comment? 

 

The last line in my post, was the point. SF points to the probable NFL motive...Blade nailed the execution of the motives perfectly.

 

And it goes beyond whether coaches--past/present/fired/whatever--complain or not. It is the fabric of the modern NFL abomination. One either joins the herd, or doesn't. The dough is great--whatever lower Manhattan moguls wish to alter, is really of no concern to them. Sorry--there isn't a chart or graph, and PFF won't have a stat for it. But don't tell me it doesn't exist--as any person with two good eyes and a brain, certainly can say it does. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Kind of OT, but the '09 offense was fine before Chris Henry got injured.

 

Through the first 9 weeks (8 games) with Chris Henry the Bengals were 12th in the league in total offense (348.8 per game), over the final 8 games they were dead last (269.5 avg).  Through the first 8 games the Bengals were 10th in the league in td passes (14) and 13th in passer rating (89.5).  Over the last 8 games they ranked 27th in passing tds (7), 30th in passing yards (1104), and their rating dropped to 74.7.

Henry average 19.7 yards per game but did open the field. Carson never passed for more than 261 yards in any game that season.  Offense was boring.

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A month or so ago, one of the Deadspin writers wrote that the NFL should just legalize holding. Eric Winston had an interesting response:

 

 

Quote

 

Last week I proposed making holding legal to cut down on penalties and to prevent mass sucking at the QB spot. Before that post ran, I asked an actual NFL offensive lineman about the idea, because I am nothing if not an ace journalist. Here now is NFLPA prez Eric Winston’s reaction:

I can’t see how this is a good idea. A) Holding, as long as you aren’t restricting movement (guy getting by you and OL yanks him) is allowed already. B) On pass plays, OL would just “wrap up” like a LB, d lineman as they come for the QB. QBs would hold onto the ball for however long they want and throw bombs down the field.

 

 



The takeaway from this is that holding isn't even a cut and dry call in and of itself. "As long as you aren't restricting movement" seems like more of a judgement call than determining a "catchable ball" for Pass Interference.  Holding is a judgment call, and the degree to which holding is called tends to depend on the specific officiating crew, and how much grabbing they choose to allow in a given game.

Are you guys sure you're complaining about holding the way the NFL enforces it?

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/offensive-holding/

We don't have stats for refs... But I found an article from 2012:
 

Quote

Scott Green has worked seven games and called holding 15 times for 127 yards. Ron Winter has also worked seven games. He's called holding 36 times for 335 yards.

 One ref called holding 2.5 times more than another over a seven game stretch. So, some refs call it more than others. Do you really think all seven games saw twice as much actual hoding when Ron Winter was reffing?

Again, player reputation figures into it... Was Carlos Dunlap tackled, or did Margus Hunt lose his footing? Are we calling back a 3rd down play because someone got grabbed that wouldn't have affected the play? (And Dunlap would have gotten there when Hunt wouldn't have...) Remember, the NFL is trying to protect their QB's and speed up the game... Calling a ton of holding penalties works against both goals.

 

Teams only get so many possessions in a game. One holding call at the wrong time can have a huge impact on the bottom line. That's likely why referees let so much holding go: They'd rather let an offensive lineman protect their quarterback by any means necessary than grind the drive to a halt.

 

But still, refs insert themselves into the game. They can't fall back on the rulebook. They can't fall back on replay. Huge, game-changing plays are being called back—or allowed to stand—all based on the ref's perception, player performance, player reputation and overall "feel."

I'm not arguing that it's right, but I think you're giving the NFL too much credit to think they can pull off this big of a con and keep 1,000 coaches, owners, and players silent. As Ben Franklin quipped, "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." It's a poorly written rule with worse enforcement, not a Illuminati conspiracy.

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Although you are taking only one example of the execution of the NFL motive, you do adroitly identify the motive...and the main one since the league decided to go full Barnum and Bailey in pursuit of wealth around 15 years ago.

 

It's all about The Show. That works great if all the consumer cares about is being entertained by the selected "Stars of the Show"...and evidently, that is the case in the modern game. Nothing actually new: the old AFL was born out of all sorts of oddball rules and regulations, designed to generate scoring and, thus, consumer interest. However, they were at least transparent about what they were doing, as opposed to the present-day NFL who hide behind this mirage of legitimacy--and just take the money of those schmucks who happen to pay to watch their Milwaukee Bucks, in the deluded belief they actually have a chance to be dealt with on the same levels as the chosen elites. 

 

It's eyes wide open: if one knows the situation--and enjoys it anyway--wonderful. Please enjoy. But, as I said, don't anyone say it doesn't exist. 

 

 

 

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