Marvin Lost All Control of Team?

[omgdrdoom]

1 minute ago, fredtoast said:

Think how amazing it is that we had so much talent when we suck at drafting and never sign any free agents.

We built a solid team through a couple years of great drafting + 2 trade robberies + a scrap heap free agent or two panning out in a huge way

 

I won't deny Mikey or Marv credit for doing that, I just don't see it as a bigger deal since we didn't turn that into much of anything past playoff appearances. During those years I was obviously happier to win more games and to see a playoff berth rather than going 2-14 or whatever, but I don't think they've accomplished what they had the potential to.

 

We've had a couple of mediocre or worse drafts as of late and the most exciting thing we've done is sign Kevin Minter deep into free agency after not many other teams cared much about him being available. I dunno, yay? We pay our own is a cool mantra until you let 5 big contributors go within a 2 year span. I won't go as far as some and say that Mike Brown isn't committed to win, I just don't think he's as good at his job as a lot of others around the league.

[LostInDaJungle]

3 minutes ago, SF2 said:

We have the talent, it has been the coaching that has failed us too many times late in games. 

Our means of talent acquisition lost us at least one of those games... It's the downside of getting a great "bargain" on Burfict and Pac-Man.

Also... Going back to 2015, we had 2 pro-bowlers, and one was our f'ing punter. In 2016, we had 4 make it... 2 of them are gone. (Whit, Eifert) I don't think we're as "talented" as some folks would like to believe.

[|SF2|]

1 minute ago, fredtoast said:

Think how amazing it is that we had so much talent when we suck at drafting and never sign any free agents.

Well, we are beginning to lose talent and replace them with sub standard players due to poor recent drafting.   We have also lost very good coordinators and replaced them with mediocre.  Hue,  Gruden. Whit and Zeitler for example.  Jones and Sanu gone as well.  Eifert can't stay healthy.  

 

I think our window to a serious run closed when our QB tried to make a simple tackle and broke his thumb.  We had a talented team,  the healthiest team BY FAR in 2015 other than one position: QB.  The defense was playing at a top 5 level by season's end and the offense had been on a tear.  We also pissed away a sure victory against the Stealers.   Woulda, coulda, shoulda. 

[Le Tigre]

7 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

"If we fire Marvin then we're back to the 90's!!!!!!" is my favorite pro-Marv argument of all time. It's a shame seeing the logical fallacy used by those that otherwise portray a higher level of intelligence on the board.

Yes, like you never portray that elevation. 

 

I actually was a live and in person participant in the beholding of the Roaring '90's. So yes, I sort of know the difference in eras. 

 

Finally, and should have been clear as glass to understand: I am not "defending" ML, or give two rats' hindquarters if he is coach or not. But I always like to remind people to be careful what they wish for--change for change sakes, or because AvgFan just wants blood, does not guarantee a parade at Fountain Square--now or in the future. Choose wisely, Obi wan. 

 

As I said, he'll be gone at year's end and everyone's wish will come true. Until the next guy runs out of chances, then out the door he goes. Who knows--maybe they will catch up with Cleveland in firing HC's in the fastest time?      

[omgdrdoom]

Just now, Le Tigre said:

Who knows--maybe they will catch up with Cleveland in firing HC's in the fastest time?      

I bet they surely will, lord knows we've been flying through the HC mill for the past 15 years!

[omgdrdoom]

 

 

 

Heading back to the 90's boyz, STRAP YO'SELVES IN!

[Le Tigre]

Non sequitur. 

 

[omgdrdoom]

14 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

 Who knows--maybe they will catch up with Cleveland in firing HC's in the fastest time?      

 

6 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

Non sequitur. 

You should tell that to the guy that made the above quote regarding a team that hasn't fired a head coach in almost 15 years.

 

lol?

 

The whole "if we get rid of Marvin we're going back to the 90's and will fire more HCs than Cleveland" is the biggest bullshit logical fallacy that I see regarding the Bengals. It's a very non-non-sequitur to dispute that BS.

[fredtoast]

5 hours ago, SF2 said:

 

 

I am with you OMG, too many around here are happy with mediocrity.  They have battered wife syndrome. 

Lamest strawman argument ever.

 

I am not "satisfied with mediocrity".  Instead I am smart enough to see that teams who changes coaches every two years rarely succeed. And I also lived in Denver when many fans claimed it was "impossible" for John Elway to ever win a Super Bowl.  I remember when Michael Jordan was not a truly great player because he could not get the Bulls to the finals in his first six seasons.  Hell, even Dean Smith was ripped by North Carolina fans for years because he "didn't have what it takes to win a championship" after 20 years of being a head coach without winning one.

 

It cracks me up when fans claim that they are so perfect and infallible that it is impossible for anyone who wants to win to disagree with them.  No one here is "happy with mediocrity".  We just disagree on what is the best path to get us to a championship.  Sports history is full of stories of guys winning championships who had never done it before.

 

 

[fredtoast]

8 hours ago, Bunghole said:

 It's obvious that Marvin just doesn't care.

Please explain.  Other then message board bull shit what actual facts make it "Obvious" that Marvin does not care?

[Le Tigre]

19 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

You should tell that to the guy that made the above quote regarding a team that hasn't fired a head coach in almost 15 years.

 

lol?

 

The whole "if we get rid of Marvin we're going back to the 90's and will fire more HCs than Cleveland" is the biggest bullshit logical fallacy that I see regarding the Bengals. It's a very non-non-sequitur to dispute that BS.

It is a non sequitur--when you are quoting something which said nothing of what you are inferring--fear of firing ML. And you continuously go back to that meme about returning to the '90's--which also was never stated. Do you work for the New York times?  

 

And you can cease responding to me in this--my case is closed. You have nothing. 

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Lamest strawman argument ever.

 

I am not "satisfied with mediocrity".  Instead I am smart enough to see that teams who changes coaches every two years rarely succeed. And I also lived in Denver when many fans claimed it was "impossible" for John Elway to ever win a Super Bowl.  I remember when Michael Jordan was not a truly great player because he could not get the Bulls to the finals in his first six seasons.  Hell, even Dean Smith was ripped by North Carolina fans for years because he "didn't have what it takes to win a championship" after 20 years of being a head coach without winning one.

 

It cracks me up when fans claim that they are so perfect and infallible that it is impossible for anyone who wants to win to disagree with them.  No one here is "happy with mediocrity".  We just disagree on what is the best path to get us to a championship.  Sports history is full of stories of guys winning championships who had never done it before.

 

 

Uhhh, Marvin has been the coach for 15 years, not 2. Marvin hasn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs in 15 years, Jordan had 6 rings by then. 

 

Elway had won 3 AFC Championships by his 7th year, Dalton will have won 0 playoff games by the end of this year, his 7th.  Lewis was 0-2 in the playoffs by end of his 7th year.

 

Elway had won 4 AFC Championships, 1 Superbowl and had a playoff record of 11-7 by his 15th year.  Won another Superbowl in his 16th and final year . Ended his playoff career 14-7 with 2 rings.   Lewis will have won ZERO playoff games and his playoff record will stand at 0-7 after 15 years. 

 

In Dean Smith's first 7 seasons he lost once in the National Semi final and once in the National Final.  Keep in mind, back then ONLY the conference champions went to the NCAA tournament which was ONLY 22 teams or less than 10% of the eligible teams.  Again Marvin lost 2 Wild Card games.

 

In his first 15 years Smith coached in 5 final 4s and 2 National Championship games.   Made it to Tourney 7 times.   He also won an NIT Championship which was a big deal since only 22 teams played in the big tournament.  They were 22-6 and ranked 13th in the nation that year but didn't win the conf tournament so no March madness for them .  Marvin hasn't won a SINGLE playoff game. 

 

Other than that, yeah Jordan, Smith and Elway are very similar to Marvin and Andy.  Lamest argument ever indeed. 

 

 

 

[|Bunghole|]

3 hours ago, SF2 said:

Uhhh, Marvin has been the coach for 15 years, not 2. Marvin hasn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs in 15 years, Jordan had 6 rings by then. 

 

Elway had won 3 AFC Championships by his 7th year, Dalton will have won 0 playoff games by the end of this year, his 7th.  Lewis was 0-2 in the playoffs by end of his 7th year.

 

Elway had won 4 AFC Championships, 1 Superbowl and had a playoff record of 11-7 by his 15th year.  Won another Superbowl in his 16th and final year . Ended his playoff career 14-7 with 2 rings.   Lewis will have won ZERO playoff games and his playoff record will stand at 0-7 after 15 years. 

 

In Dean Smith's first 7 seasons he lost once in the National Semi final and once in the National Final.  Keep in mind, back then ONLY the conference champions went to the NCAA tournament which was ONLY 22 teams or less than 10% of the eligible teams.  Again Marvin lost 2 Wild Card games.

 

In his first 15 years Smith coached in 5 final 4s and 2 National Championship games.   Made it to Tourney 7 times.   He also won an NIT Championship which was a big deal since only 22 teams played in the big tournament.  They were 22-6 and ranked 13th in the nation that year but didn't win the conf tournament so no March madness for them .  Marvin hasn't won a SINGLE playoff game. 

 

Other than that, yeah Jordan, Smith and Elway are very similar to Marvin and Andy.  Lamest argument ever indeed. 

 

 

 

Truth. I find it laughable that Fred calls an argument a strawman then immediately erects one of his own. Nothing he said is comparable to the Bengals situation. The fact of the matter is that Marvin is the longest tenured coach in the NFL aside from Belicheat (who's won a couple big games here and there you know). THERE IS NO SINGLE FRANCHISE IN THE NFL that would have kept Marvin this long after his miserable playoff record. NOT ONE.

 

Edited to add: other than the Bengals, of course

[Ron~Popeil]

I am a Marvin fan and will always be thankful to him for making us relevant again after the 1990s. At some point though, the next step needs to be taken. I don't think he is capable of taking us there. 

[T-Dub]

I think he lost control of the team when The Redeemer made him bring Chris Henry back.  Marvin had publicly stated he didn't want him.  At that point Mikey may as well have fired him, because he lost all authority.  Henry was obviously an amazing talent so I'm not even arguing whether it was the right decision or not, and maybe it was Marv's fault for making it public in the first place, but you can't undermine your HC like that and expect him to maintain control of the team.  Compound that with losing the leadership of Whitworth for the likes of Spitman Jones, a guy most of us wouldn't trust to take the trashcans to the curb, and here we are.

[fluhartz]

Someone really comparing ole marv  and Andy to Dean Smith, John Elway and Michael fucking Jordan.....

 

I like Andy.... but jesus christ!!!!!!! that shit is hilarious 

[UncleEarl]

12 hours ago, SF2 said:

I certainly think that having better coaches in during at least  2 of those Wild Card games would have resulted in victories.  In fact, better coaches in a few of those years would have resulted in byes and homefield advantage.   We have the talent, it has been the coaching that has failed us too many times late in games. 

I think their point is "what makes you think they will hire better coaches?"  The family is cheap.  They aren't paying a name. 

 

All this talk about Hue Jackson...why?  He was a solid OC, sure...but as a HC?  You are talking about the guy that traded the farm for Carson Palmer, passed on Carson Wentz and passed on DeShaun Watson twice!!!  You want that guy as your HC and with a voice in the draft room?  No thanks.  He's the Peter Principle in action.

 

I want Lewis gone.  I know we aren't winning squat with him as HC.  Even though the Brown Family will go shopping at Wal Mart for a head coach at least there is some chance it will be a good one.  I am willing to risk another decade of the 90s for the chance they hit the jackpot at the coaching roulette wheel.  It's sad that some of us are at this point, but here we are. 

[-GoBengals-]

players are smart enough to realize andy aint shit and the game is over.. the 3rd place team lost to the first palce team.. they arent delusional... they had a shit day, when its over this didnt cry or kick their dog...

 

somehow this translates to marvin lost control of the team...

[omgdrdoom]

15 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

It is a non sequitur--when you are quoting something which said nothing of what you are inferring--fear of firing ML. And you continuously go back to that meme about returning to the '90's--which also was never stated. Do you work for the New York times?  

 

And you can cease responding to me in this--my case is closed. You have nothing. 

No, I don't "have nothing", I'm just forced to figure out what you try to imply in your posts since you seem to refuse to speak clearly in black and white to explain your positions on most topics. I don't need the bullshit riddles, how do you feel about Marvin as our current coach?

 

I took YOUR WORDS and used exactly what you were implying to refute your points, but you get to play the "I didn't say that" game constantly because you never own what you say. Anyone with a 3rd grade reading level can understand the shit you imply with your posts. Here's a good example..

 

"The days of Dave, Bruce, and Dick can't return fast enough for some folks. 

 

Relax Romans, next season will see your pet hate gone, and the happy times where you can just happily bitch 365 days a year, will quickly return. Great days a-comin'! "

 

To that I replied and said that I think it's funny when people say that if we fire Marvin that we're back to the 90's. Sorry, you didn't SAY that (since you won't ever SAY anything), but you sure as all fuck IMPLIED that. If you read the above quote from yourself and claim that you didn't make that implication, you're a fucking liar, plain and simple. Stop with the New York Times bullshit, you know exactly what you implied with that post, stop playing stupid.

[omgdrdoom]

If people are talking about Mavin being fired and someone jumps in and says "The days of Dave, Bruce, and Dick can't return fast enough for some folks.", that is a 100%, no doubt, unequivocal implication that if we fire Marvin that we're returning to the time period of those coaches. There's no way to dance around it and play the "I didn't say that" game, because ya fuckin' did say that.

 

Own it.

[fredtoast]

13 hours ago, fluhartz said:

Someone really comparing ole marv  and Andy to Dean Smith, John Elway and Michael fucking Jordan.....

 

I like Andy.... but jesus christ!!!!!!! that shit is hilarious 

I am not comparing the Bengals to Dean Smith, Michael Joirdan, and John Elway.  I am just using them as an example to show how fans who are 100% convinced they are right are often wrong.

 

Believe me, the fans that claimed these guys could never win a championship were just as confident in their position as everyone here who claims it was impossible for Marvin to win a championship.  Smith was head coach at North Carolina for 20 years before he won a championship.  Elway had been in the NFL 16 years before he won a Super Bowl.

[|schotzee|]

15 hours ago, Ron~Popeil said:

I am a Marvin fan and will always be thankful to him for making us relevant again after the 1990s. At some point though, the next step needs to be taken. I don't think he is capable of taking us there. 

I share these thoughts .

[LostInDaJungle]

9 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Elway had been in the NFL 16 years before he won a Super Bowl.

Just for some color commentary:

http://electriccommentary.blogspot.com/2007/10/john-elway-super-bowl-choker.html

 

Quote

Basically, John Elway should thank his lucky stars that Kerry Collins managed to play in a Super Bowl, but Elway still has 2 of the worst 4 Super Bowl performances since 1982, and 3 of the worst 12, including the Broncos' victory over the Packers. His best performance ranks only 15th on this list.

 

[fredtoast]

16 hours ago, Ron~Popeil said:

I am a Marvin fan and will always be thankful to him for making us relevant again after the 1990s. At some point though, the next step needs to be taken. I don't think he is capable of taking us there. 

 

42 minutes ago, schotzee said:

I share these thoughts .

Same.

 

Marvin was never as bad as a lot of people claim.  He was handicapped by the teams refusal to sign free agents and a meddling owner.  But this will make 2 straight years that we stink.  It is time for a change.

[|SF2|]

53 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

I am not comparing the Bengals to Dean Smith, Michael Joirdan, and John Elway.  I am just using them as an example to show how fans who are 100% convinced they are right are often wrong.

 

Believe me, the fans that claimed these guys could never win a championship were just as confident in their position as everyone here who claims it was impossible for Marvin to win a championship.  Smith was head coach at North Carolina for 20 years before he won a championship.  Elway had been in the NFL 16 years before he won a Super Bowl.

And my reply was pretty easy to follow.  Jordan had WON an NBA Championship in year 7,  6 by year 15.   

Dean Smith had both gotten to the FINAL game in his first 7 years but had to face Kareem and the Bruins.    2 NCAA FINALS in 15 Years.

Elway 3 AFC Championships in first 7 years,   ELWAY had 2 rings and 5 AFC Championships by year 16.

 

There was massive amounts of evidence to suggest that Smith, Jordan and Elway would eventually win Championships.  

 

Marvin and Andy haven't even sniffed a divisional round game.  Marvin is 0-7 in WILDCARD Games.  He hasn't even come close to coming close in 15 years.   There is no evidence to suggest this team will win anything substantial while Marvin is coach.

 

Do you think that if Marvin finally wins 1 playoff game it changes anything?  Say we squeak in and win a wildcard game then get beaten on the road by the Patriots.  Do you actually think, after 15 years, that is an accomplishment?  Are you gonna show up here and say, "I told you so?"  Bar set sooooo low.