John Ross - PLOT TWIST

[omgdrdoom]

14 hours ago, fredtoast said:

 

 

 

Do you guys remember the point you were trying to make?  Who cares if Marvin Jones and MO Sanu might bhave increased their production slightly since leaving the Bengals.  They were still developed by Urban.  They were the 12th and 23rd WRs taken in th 2012 draft and they outperformed 90% of the WRs taken in front of them before they ever left the Bengals.  How the hell does that make Urban a "complete moron"?  And if he is a complete moron then doesn't that mean trhat every other WR coach in the league is a complete moron also because the players they drafted higher than Jones and Sanu did not perform as well.

 

Only on a Bengals website would a coach who turned a 5th and a 3rd round pick into two of the top free agents on the market get called a complete moron.

Alright Fred, let's leave the "you guys" thing out of it because I never said a word about Urban. Urban is a fine position coach IMO. Don't fucking start your strawman bullshit with me.

 

I just thought it was interesting that you seemed to refute that Sanu was having more success since he left here, which he pretty clearly has.

[omgdrdoom]

8 hours ago, Jpoore said:

There's nothing u need to see. He's the complete wr if he stays healthy.

You're either bad at trolling or watching football.

[fredtoast]

10 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

That's not counting the disaster that we witnessed this season with the 3rd (Ross) WR taken in the draft, as well as the relatively nothing that we saw from the 27th (Malone) WR taken.

 

It took Sanu and Jones a year to develop.

[fredtoast]

10 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

You give Urban credit for "developing" the 12th and 23rd WR's taken in the 2012 draft.

By your own logic, we SHOULD then castigate him for the abject failure in developing the 6th (Boyd) and 23rd (Core) WR's taken in the 2015 draft. 

 

You don't understand my logic at all.

 

What we should do is look at the players Urban has developed compared to the rest of the teams in the league.  Every team has picks that fail.  If you labled every coach who had a draft pick fail as a "total moron" then you would be calling every single coach in the league a "total moron". 

 

But not every coach in the league has developed a 3rd and 5th round pick into two of the highest paid free agents on the market.

 

 

[Madieu Superstar]

3 hours ago, fredtoast said:

 

You don't understand my logic at all.

 

What we should do is look at the players Urban has developed compared to the rest of the teams in the league.  Every team has picks that fail.  If you labled every coach who had a draft pick fail as a "total moron" then you would be calling every single coach in the league a "total moron". 

 

But not every coach in the league has developed a 3rd and 5th round pick into two of the highest paid free agents on the market.

 

 

Keep declaring things that cannot be proven one way or another. It seems to make you feel better. 

"This coach developed this player, we gotta give him credit for it"

"This player did not develop, but we cannot hold the coach to the same standard."

 

8 of the top 20 WR's in receiving this season were picked in the 1st round. 

9 of the top 20 were NOT picked in the first 2 rounds of the draft.

 

Urban did not move mountains, as you make it out to be.

 

[Madieu Superstar]

4 hours ago, fredtoast said:

 

It took Sanu and Jones a year to develop.

Sanu's 2013 was actually worse than his 2012. His reception to target average was worse, his yards per target was worse, his drops went up, his TD's were cut in half, and his yards per reception increased by 0.1. 

 

But please keep making declarative statements. 

[fredtoast]

30 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Keep declaring things that cannot be proven one way or another. It seems to make you feel better. 

"This coach developed this player, we gotta give him credit for it"

"This player did not develop, but we cannot hold the coach to the same standard."

 

So since you started all of this just explain what criteria you used to determine that Urban was a "complete moron".  Then we can start over and have the discussion on your terms.

[Madieu Superstar]

5 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

So since you started all of this just explain what criteria you used to determine that Urban was a "complete moron".  Then we can start over and have the discussion on your terms.

Thank you for finally giving up. You never had a point to begin with. Everything you said that could be proven one way or another, was proven wrong. If I quit my job in the future, I’ll do the same thing with all of your posts on this board. 

 

I said that the coaching staff staff is full of morons. They have Dalton (who you love), they have AJ Green, they have 3 RB’s taken in the second round, they have 2 tackles taken in the first and second rounds, they have Brandon Lafell, Tyler Boyd, John Ross, and Cody Core (being coached by the great James Urban), and they have Tyler Eifert and a 3rd round backup TE. 

 

With all of this, they have a historically bad offense. The proof is in the pudding that the ppl coaching them are not yet close to splitting the atom. 

 

You then tried to argue that James Urban is a good coach because he developed WR’s taken in the 3rd round and 5th rounds (both were projected to go in round 2 btw). I proved that you were hysterical with numbers and facts. 

 

I still go back to my original statement. You’re only saying he’s a good coach because he’s friends with Andy Benoit, who pumps him up in the national media whenever he gets a chance. It pays to have friends in loud places. 

[omgdrdoom]

I'd blame the issues of offense on some combination of Mike Brown, Duke Tobin, Paul Alexander, and Marvin Lewis before anyone else. Just my opinion on things, but some historically shit drafts and historic free agent ignoring have led to this historically bad offense more than anything. Even the best position coaches in the world can't coach up everybody they're given to work with. Obviously this is just an opinion and I don't think either side can be proven right or wrong, but I blame the people drafting these turds more than anything, at least when we're talking about this specific group of players. The various issues surrounding John Ross, Tyler Boyd, Tyler Eifert, OL, etc. have nothing to do with Urban.

[Madieu Superstar]

3 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I'd blame the issues of offense on some combination of Mike Brown, Duke Tobin, Paul Alexander, and Marvin Lewis before anyone else. Just my opinion on things, but some historically shit drafts and historic free agent ignoring have led to this historically bad offense more than anything. Even the best position coaches in the world can't coach up everybody they're given to work with. Obviously this is just an opinion and I don't think either side can be proven right or wrong, but I blame the people drafting these turds more than anything, at least when we're talking about this specific group of players. The various issues surrounding John Ross, Tyler Boyd, Tyler Eifert, OL, etc. have nothing to do with Urban.

If as fans who are not in the building, we cannot judge the coaches by the production of the players that they are responsible for, then there’s no reason to have a discussion.

 

You judge a salesman by how much he sells. Of course there are other factors in play, but at the end of the day you sign up to be judged on how much you sell and how much you make for the company.

 

and you can’t give a guy credit for the players who have worked out, while letting him off the hook for all the players who are failing. 

[omgdrdoom]

23 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

If as fans who are not in the building, we cannot judge the coaches by the production of the players that they are responsible for, then there’s no reason to have a discussion.

 

You judge a salesman by how much he sells. Of course there are other factors in play, but at the end of the day you sign up to be judged on how much you sell and how much you make for the company.

 

and you can’t give a guy credit for the players who have worked out, while letting him off the hook for all the players who are failing. 

 

I'm all for giving coaches blame/credit for stuff, I'm just saying in this particular instance, I don't think it's Urban's fault that these issues have happened and caused our offense to look like shit this year.

 

If our offense sucks it's not automatically everyone's fault that's involved; sometimes it's the OC, sometimes the QB, sometimes the WR, sometimes the position coach, sometimes the OL. In this particular instance with the 2017 Bengals' offense, Urban isn't the issue IMO.

 

The only major problem I hold Urban responsible for this year is the WR drops and mental errors like that, it's up to the receivers to not do that shit and the blame falls back to the position coach for that.

[fredtoast]

1 hour ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Thank you for finally giving up. You never had a point to begin with. Everything you said that could be proven one way or another, was proven wrong. If I quit my job in the future, I’ll do the same thing with all of your posts on this board. 

 

While being coached by Urban both Sanu and Jones outperformed 90% of the WRs taken before them in the draft.  They developed so much better than the other WRs drafted and coached by other NFL coaches that they were two of the highest paid WRs in their free agent class.

 

This would not have happened if Urban was a "total moron".

 

 

[fredtoast]

51 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

and you can’t give a guy credit for the players who have worked out, while letting him off the hook for all the players who are failing. 

In the NFL you can.

 

Unless you can name a coach who has never had a single draft pick that did not become a star.

 

If Urban had a bunch of first round picks that flopped then you could hold it against him, but unless you can name a coach who has turned every third and fifth round pick into a star then you have no basis to claim Urban is a "total moron".

[Madieu Superstar]

27 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

While being coached by Urban both Sanu and Jones outperformed 90% of the WRs taken before them in the draft.  They developed so much better than the other WRs drafted and coached by other NFL coaches that they were two of the highest paid WRs in their free agent class.

 

This would not have happened if Urban was a "total moron".

 

 

Again, go look at the top WR’s in the league this year. I’ve given you the numbers. It isn’t rare that they’re picked after the second round. You don’t have the facts on your side. It’s why you play the strawmam argument so often. 

[Madieu Superstar]

12 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

In the NFL you can.

 

Unless you can name a coach who has never had a single draft pick that did not become a star.

 

If Urban had a bunch of first round picks that flopped then you could hold it against him, but unless you can name a coach who has turned every third and fifth round pick into a star then you have no basis to claim Urban is a "total moron".

Urban is a moron because his WR’s have played like garbage the last two seasons. They don’t get open, and they sure as heck don’t block. Go watch the All 22 and look at Lafell’s effort on running plays. Then come back and tell me he’s a good coach (Andy Benoit told you that).

[fredtoast]

Who the hell is Andy Benoit and why do you have such a huge hard on for him?

[fredtoast]

1 hour ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Again, go look at the top WR’s in the league this year. I’ve given you the numbers. It isn’t rare that they’re picked after the second round. You don’t have the facts on your side. It’s why you play the strawmam argument so often. 

You fail at math.

 

There have been 144 WRs drafted after the 2nd round since 2012.  Among those 144 Sanu ranks #3 in receptions and Jones ranks #4.

 

One team (out of 32) has 2 players in the top 3%.  How is that not rare?

 

Of the 116 WRs taken after the 3rd round since 2012 Marvin Jones ranks #1.

 

 

 

[Madieu Superstar]

14 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

You fail at math.

 

There have been 144 WRs drafted after the 2nd round since 2012.  Among those 144 Sanu ranks #3 in receptions and Jones ranks #4.

 

One team (out of 32) has 2 players in the top 3%.  How is that not rare?

 

 

 

And you can go and look at the top 20 WRs in the league this year in receiving yards and see how many of them were drafted after the 2nd round. 

 

Thank you for that stat. Neither Jones or Sanu has a 1,000 yard season to his credit, but I appreciate knowing that they catch more 5 yard ins than their peers. 

 

 

P.S. while we’re on this, I’m so tired of hearing how great our position coaches are all the time. Dave Lapham told me that Paul Guenther was gonna have the most exotic blitz combinations in the world, I heard that Vance Joseph was a savant, Kevin Coyle was a future DC (obviously not a good one), Ken Zampese was the key to Carson and Andy’s development, losing Louie Cioffi was a killer, SI told me that Paul Alexander was a genius, Matt Burke was a future star in coaching. 

 

Other than Hue Jackson, which one of Marvin’s position coaches has had success moving on and up?

 

It reminds me of how everyone stresses out about cutting players to get to the 53. Like teams are going to raid our cuts for good players lol. Then inevitably they don’t get claimed and we breath a sigh of relief. Hopefully we can sneak Deshawn Williams onto our practice squad again next year. 

 

[Madieu Superstar]

43 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Who the hell is Andy Benoit and why do you have such a huge hard on for him?

He’s the national writer who loves James Urban that you pretend to know nothing of. He’s the guy who you piggybacked off of to pretend like you have a clue about James Urban. 

[fredtoast]

39 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

And you can go and look at the top 20 WRs in the league this year in receiving yards and see how many of them were drafted after the 2nd round.

 

That stat tells you nothing about how rare something is because you don't know the pool size.

 

Is 8 out of ten rare?  How about 8 out of 200?  8 out of 10,000?

 

Like I said, you fail at math.  Less than 25% of active WRs this year were taken in the first 2 rounds.

[fredtoast]

41 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

He’s the national writer who loves James Urban that you pretend to know nothing of. He’s the guy who you piggybacked off of to pretend like you have a clue about James Urban. 

Yeah, right, I had never heard of Marvin Jones, Mo Sanu, Brandon LaFell, AJ Green, or Tyler Boyd until I read about them in a Andy Benoit article.

 

But after I looked him up he does seem like a very knowledgeable guy.  Not surprised that he is impressed with Urban.

 

Got any experts that back up your assertion that Urban is a Moron?

[Madieu Superstar]

10 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

That stat tells you nothing about how rare something is because you don't know the pool size.

 

Is 8 out of ten rare?  How about 8 out of 200?  8 out of 10,000?

 

Like I said, you fail at math.  Less than 25% of active WRs this year were taken in the first 2 rounds.

9 out of the top 20 WR’s in the league this year were picked after the second round of undrafted altogether. You can accept that or you cannot. I don’t care. So when you say that someone should be credited for developing WR’s picked in the middle rounds, understand that the majority of the top WR’s in the league currently were picked in those same spots. 

[fredtoast]

7 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

9 out of the top 20 WR’s in the league this year were picked after the second round of undrafted altogether. You can accept that or you cannot. I don’t care. So when you say that someone should be credited for developing WR’s picked in the middle rounds, understand that the majority of the top WR’s in the league currently were picked in those same spots. 

And you fail at math because you honestly believe that 8 out of ten is just as rare of an occurrence as 8 out of a million.

[Madieu Superstar]

2 hours ago, fredtoast said:

And you fail at math because you honestly believe that 8 out of ten is just as rare of an occurrence as 8 out of a million.

Another strawman

More distortion

It’s your go-to move when you have nothing to back up the drivel that you spew.

 

I’ll keep analyzing Sanu’s 2013 stats relative to 2012 in order to get a grasp of all that growth you spoke of.

You must have have come up with a few unidentified mathematical formulas in order to make a statement like that. 

But hey, maybe it was spiritual growth you  were referring to! It’s about as tangible as your nonsense about Urban’s developmental skills. 

 

[Jpoore]

23 hours ago, SF2 said:

There is no such thing as a 5'11"   "complete" wide receiver.

Antonio brown.