Bodine gone?

[snarkster]

6 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

They are free to stick him anywhere that ain't around here    If they can stick his coach somewhere too that'd be a 2-fer

[Jamie_B]

I keep hearing that Paul Alexander has coached up guys that were not high round picks.

 

I am willing to accept that might have been, but to be honest I can't recall who would fall into that category? (ie: Guys the Bengals drafted outside of the first 3 rounds), and especially not recently.

[sparky151]

19 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

I keep hearing that Paul Alexander has coached up guys that were not high round picks.

 

I am willing to accept that might have been, but to be honest I can't recall who would fall into that category? (ie: Guys the Bengals drafted outside of the first 3 rounds), and especially not recently.

I guess Rich Braham would be the best example. We got him on waivers and he turned into a very good center. So he balances out keeping Evan Mathis on the bench behind Nate Livings. 

[cwing]

18 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

I guess Rich Braham would be the best example. We got him on waivers and he turned into a very good center. So he balances out keeping Evan Mathis on the bench behind Nate Livings. 

Alexander first year was 1994 as was Braham’s. Alexander was TE’s coach. I’d give the credit to Braham. Missing between Mathis (pro bowler) and Livings is not excusable. 

[Madieu Superstar]

20 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

I keep hearing that Paul Alexander has coached up guys that were not high round picks.

 

I am willing to accept that might have been, but to be honest I can't recall who would fall into that category? (ie: Guys the Bengals drafted outside of the first 3 rounds), and especially not recently.

I’m not sure who says that. 

I believe that Boling (4th round) and Goff (3rd round) are the only ones. 

Ppl on here may give him credit for Stacy Andrews. Those ppl never watched Stacy Andrews. Philly never did either. 

 

That was always my biggest beef with PA. Shouldnt have to pick OL in the first 2 rounds to get competent play out of them. 

[fredtoast]

Now I understand why so many people hate on Alexander. They don't know what the hell they are talking about.   For example Alexander started maths over livings in 2009 when he deserved to.  Mathis did not deserve to start in 2010.

 

[fredtoast]

Braham, Stacy Andrews, Nate livings, Anthony Collins, and Boling,  are all examples of later round picks or undrafted free agents that other NFL teams valued very highly after Alexander coached them up.

[fredtoast]

1 hour ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

 

That was always my biggest beef with PA. Shouldnt have to pick OL in the first 2 rounds to get competent play out of them. 

The Bengali had a 12 year stretch where they only drafted 3 o linemen in the first 2 rounds (97-09)

[Jamie_B]

22 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Braham, Stacy Andrews, Nate livings, Anthony Collins, and Boling,  are all examples of later round picks or undrafted free agents that other NFL teams valued very highly after Alexander coached them up.

Braham was not our draft pick, things finally clicked for him with his gained experience over anything he learnt under Alexander. The rest of those guys were not all that good and mostly just stop gaps for draft picks we later replaced them with and all outside of Boling are no longer in the league. 

 

So I'll give you Boling who is a 4th rounder that we drafted and who is average. Outside of that this idea that Alexander has coached up guys I just dont see it.

 

I'm asking for someone that the Bengals drafted in a round later than the 3rd that he coached up to be good.

[LostInDaJungle]

Well, the implosion is in full swing.

Marvin is leaving, by his OWN choice, and even our mediocre players are deciding they'd rather play somewhere else.

Jake Fischer... Not to be crass, but what are his realistic chances of coming back from a surgery to correct an irregular heartbeat and playing at a high level? I would think there's as much of a chance that it takes a mental toll as much as physical. RG has been a mess all year, Bolling has been solid. Ced has been a disaster at BOTH tackle spots.

We need to remake the entire O-Line.

We're already seeing media discussions about moving on from Dalton. So, 1st round pick spent?

We need some depth at TE and a compliment to AJ in the passing game.

We need to hire a quality HC and new assistants. Oh, and the Brown family uses their assistants as scouts, so we'll be well prepared come draft day.

If we had just fired a GM for landing us in this untenable position, we would be talking about the insurmountable problems the new GM faces in getting this club turned around. We'd be talking about what an amazing job they'd have to do to get this turned around. We have not fired a GM. We still have the same two Ivy-League morons who got us into this mess manning the helm of the USS Poopie Loop. We can sit here and speculate about people they'll sign... our FO isn't competent, and no one WANTS to play here.

The good news is that 7 draft picks is ~10% of your roster. Paul Alexander will probably be one of the few assistants they keep and might draft O-Line heavy with his input. After Mike and Katie use the first two picks on whatever glamour position player they fell in love with on Saturdays. My guess - Is that either Hue or Gruden comes back, and Dalton is going to be safe. That's a first round pick freed up for a Tackle.

But all rambling aside... We're trusting Mike and Katie to right the ship. God help us all.

[LostInDaJungle]

4 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Braham was not our draft pick, things finally clicked for him with his gained experience over anything he learnt under Alexander. The rest of those guys were not all that good and mostly just stop gaps for draft picks we later replaced them with and all outside of Boling are no longer in the league. 

 

So I'll give you Boling who is a 4th rounder that we drafted and who is average. Outside of that this idea that Alexander has coached up guys I just dont see it.

 

I'm asking for someone that the Bengals drafted in a round later than the 3rd that he coached up to be good.

Outside of Richie Braham... You should be able to develop 4th round OG's to be mediocre. Collins and Andrews didn't finish those big contracts they got after leaving.

I mean... That's your list after he's been here since the Franklin Pierce administration? Kinda underwhelming in 30+ years on the job. If Anthony Collins is a part of your argument, that's a pretty weak argument. In what... 2006? What has he done for me lately except for take a guy we drafted to be an average guard and made him average?

If we really want to start going down the list... Why was Philly's O-Line coach able to get so much more out of Evan Mathis? Livings played much better for the Cowboys than he did for us... Do O-Linemen get better when they leave the Bengals?

This is the "No, he's great at Marketing... Look, he's got Pets.com on his resume." of defending an NFL coach. A blind squirrel who found a 4th round acorn named Clint Bolling in the last 10 years. That is a laugh. Among how many flops? Even accepting that it's hard... Anthony "&$@(*&%" Collins is a part of your defense?

I'd love to see Big Willie brought back in to teach the O-Line. He's expressed an interest, and he's already running an O-Line academy for HS/College players.

(FYI, I know I'm responding to Jamie, but in agreement, and since I have Fred blocked I don't want to kick sand in his vagina by quoting him directly.)

[cwing]

2 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

I’m not sure who says that. 

I believe that Boling (4th round) and Goff (3rd round) are the only ones. 

Ppl on here may give him credit for Stacy Andrews. Those ppl never watched Stacy Andrews. Philly never did either. 

 

That was always my biggest beef with PA. Shouldnt have to pick OL in the first 2 rounds to get competent play out of them. 

I’m definitely with you there. Andrews never earned a starters spot. He had no intention of signing a long term deal and was given the starting spot only after Willie could no longer play. Since they ignored the position, they were then forced to tag Andrews to simp,y fill the position.

 

The decisions around the oline over the last 3 years reminds me of the decisions that were made 2006-2008 regarding oline. That being, front office oline neglect relying on what you have even though it hadn’t yet proved it could play.

 

06-08 is was letting old guys that couldn’t play anymore play out to the end of their contacts. The last 2-3 years had been relying on draft picks to fill roles before proving they could actually play.

[fredtoast]

2 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

 

That was always my biggest beef with PA. Shouldnt have to pick OL in the first 2 rounds to get competent play out of them. 

The Bengali had a 12 year stretch where they only drafted 3 o linemen in the first 2 rounds (97-09)

[cwing]

In much of Alexander’s time he wasn’t given many fancy new toys. When they gave him talent, he had some good olines and some good players. 

 

He had gotten some very good results from Braham, Levi, Willie, Steinbuch, Bobby Williams, Whitworth, A Smith, etc... but there aren’t that many (if any) diamond in the rough types that he polished.

 

in a nut shell, this orangization needs to put more emphasis on the oline. 

[Madieu Superstar]

29 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

The Bengali had a 12 year stretch where they only drafted 3 o linemen in the first 2 rounds (97-09)

When did they have good O-Lines from 97 to 03-04?

 

The line was good with Willie (1st round), Levi (1st Round), Steinbach (2nd Round). 

 

The line was capable of pass blocking with Whitworth (2nd Round), Zeitler (1st Round), Smith (1st Round).

 

If you know of good players drafted outside of those first two rounds by PA in his 23 seasons as O-Line coach, you can share them.

 

Referencing years in which this team’s o-line was abysmal shouldn't really count for much though.

 

These are Alexander's drafted Offensive Linemen since taking over in 1995:

 

1995: Melvin Tuten (Round 3)

1995: Ryan Grigson (Round 6)

1996: Willie Anderson (Round 1)

1996: Ken Blackman (Round 3)

1996: Rod Jones (Round 7)

1997: Rod Payne (Round 3)

1998: Mike Goff (Round 3)

1999: Tony Coats (Round 7)

2001: Victor Leyva (Round 5)

2002: Levi Jones (Round 1)

2003: Eric Steinbach (Round 2)

2003: Scott Kooistra (Round 7)

2004: Stacy Andrews (Round 4)

2005: Eric Ghiaciuc (Round 4)

2005: Adam Kieft (Round 5)

2006: Andrew Whitworth (Round 2)

2007: Dan Santucci (Round 7)

2008: Anthony Collins (Round 4)

2009: Andre Smith (Round 1)\

2009: Jonathan Luigs (Round 4)

2010: Otis Hudson (Round 5)

2010: Reggie Stephens (Round 7)

2011: Clint Boling (Round 4)

2012: Kevin Zeitler (Round 1)

2013: Tanner Hawkinson (Round 5)

2013: TJ Johnson (Round 7)

2013: Reid Fragel (Round 7)

2014: Russell Bodine (Round 4)

2015: Cedric Ogbuehi (Round 1)

2015: Jake Fisher (Round 2)

2016: Christian Westerman (Round 5)

2017: JJ Dielman (Round 5)

 

 The bolded are those who I considered had met the threshold of average or better. Anyone can make of this what they wish. 

Alexander's main issue at this point is missing on his previous 8 offensive linemen drafted. That should be hard to explain to a new head coach. 

 

If I'm a new head coach, I'm going to have a problems bringing back an OL coach who seems to have real trouble evaluating and developing guys from spread offenses. They have 3 on the roster right now who probably don't belong. 

[snarkster]

My main problem with Alexander (Marvin, the Front Office) is letting this team (with an arguably playoff caliber team elsewhere) go into a season with a unit as putrid as this offensive line.  Thinking Oblowme & Fisher were reserve tackles (much less NFL starters) in itself was a capital crime. His poor personnel decisions the last few years resulted in a talented team having virtually no shot at any kind of success from the day camp opened.  Didn't care about his past, his present sucks and it's past time for him to go.  Inexcusable for a NFL unit to start a season that putrid.  Bring in someone talented and see if they can at least raise the OLine level of play to at least mediocre by next season.  The Browns won't do it though.  If they don't make Alexander HC they'll stay with a Lewis disciple that won't dare shitcan him.

[cwing]

1 hour ago, Madieu Superstar said:

When did they have good O-Lines from 97 to 03-04?

 

The line was good with Willie (1st round), Levi (1st Round), Steinbach (2nd Round). 

 

The line was capable of pass blocking with Whitworth (2nd Round), Zeitler (1st Round), Smith (1st Round).

 

If you know of good players drafted outside of those first two rounds by PA in his 23 seasons as O-Line coach, you can share them.

 

Referencing years in which this team’s o-line was abysmal shouldn't really count for much though.

 

These are Alexander's drafted Offensive Linemen since taking over in 1995:

 

1995: Melvin Tuten (Round 3)

1995: Ryan Grigson (Round 6)

1996: Willie Anderson (Round 1)

1996: Ken Blackman (Round 3)

1996: Rod Jones (Round 7)

1997: Rod Payne (Round 3)

1998: Mike Goff (Round 3)

1999: Tony Coats (Round 7)

2001: Victor Leyva (Round 5)

2002: Levi Jones (Round 1)

2003: Eric Steinbach (Round 2)

2003: Scott Kooistra (Round 7)

2004: Stacy Andrews (Round 4)

2005: Eric Ghiaciuc (Round 4)

2005: Adam Kieft (Round 5)

2006: Andrew Whitworth (Round 2)

2007: Dan Santucci (Round 7)

2008: Anthony Collins (Round 4)

2009: Andre Smith (Round 1)\

2009: Jonathan Luigs (Round 4)

2010: Otis Hudson (Round 5)

2010: Reggie Stephens (Round 7)

2011: Clint Boling (Round 4)

2012: Kevin Zeitler (Round 1)

2013: Tanner Hawkinson (Round 5)

2013: TJ Johnson (Round 7)

2013: Reid Fragel (Round 7)

2014: Russell Bodine (Round 4)

2015: Cedric Ogbuehi (Round 1)

2015: Jake Fisher (Round 2)

2016: Christian Westerman (Round 5)

2017: JJ Dielman (Round 5)

 

 The bolded are those who I considered had met the threshold of average or better. Anyone can make of this what they wish. 

Alexander's main issue at this point is missing on his previous 8 offensive linemen drafted. That should be hard to explain to a new head coach. 

 

If I'm a new head coach, I'm going to have a problems bringing back an OL coach who seems to have real trouble evaluating and developing guys from spread offenses. They have 3 on the roster right now who probably don't belong. 

Wow. 5 o-lineman on the field for every offensive snap and only 32 o-lineman picks in 24 yrs from a team that hates to play in free agency. Doesn’t that seem light? 

[Madieu Superstar]

22 minutes ago, cwing said:

Wow. 5 o-lineman on the field for every offensive snap and only 32 o-lineman picks in 24 yrs from a team that hates to play in free agency. Doesn’t that seem light? 

I'd have to co pare that to another team, but would you want them to have picked more OL in the middle rounds? We didn't get much out of those picks. 

[|Bunghole|]

What's crazy is that the offensive line play with our backups has been "pretty good" for the last two games when they were finally anointed the starters. Heck, today the Ravens, despite a furious pass rush, only sacked Dalton once.

[fredtoast]

21 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

You should be able to develop 4th round OG's to be mediocre.

Then why does every single team in the leaghue have a problem with this.

 

Since Boling was taken in the '11 draft there have been 172 offensive linemne drafted in the fourth round or later, but only one has more starts than Boling.

 

Boling is much better than just average.  He was a highly regarded potential free agent and was the 14th highest paid OG in the league this year.

[fredtoast]

21 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

 Why was Philly's O-Line coach able to get so much more out of Evan Mathis?

Actually it was Alexander who first tapped Mathis's potential.  He was on his third team in 2 years when the Bengals signed him in '08.  In '09 when Alexander made him the starter he was one of the highest ranked OGs in the league until he got hurt in the middle of the season.

 

In '10 he was an out-of-shape slob.  That is why he had to settle for a league minimum contract with the Eagles in '11.  Mathis even admitted he was out of shape and made a video documenting getting himself back in shape in the off season before '11.

[|kennethmw|]

9 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Actually it was Alexander who first tapped Mathis's potential.  He was on his third team in 2 years when the Bengals signed him in '08.  In '09 when Alexander made him the starter he was one of the highest ranked OGs in the league until he got hurt in the middle of the season.

 

In '10 he was an out-of-shape slob.  That is why he had to settle for a league minimum contract with the Eagles in '11.  Mathis even admitted he was out of shape and made a video documenting getting himself back in shape in the off season before '11.

Seriously, Bro, why do you even try?  Logic is not logical to the illogical.

[cwing]

19 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

I'd have to co pare that to another team, but would you want them to have picked more OL in the middle rounds? We didn't get much out of those picks. 

I honestly don’t know and agree it would need some comparisons. Without making those comparisons, it seems to me a lack of emphasis on the position. It’s not like they had a dominating line as a who,e during that time frame.

[cwing]

36 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Actually it was Alexander who first tapped Mathis's potential.  He was on his third team in 2 years when the Bengals signed him in '08.  In '09 when Alexander made him the starter he was one of the highest ranked OGs in the league until he got hurt in the middle of the season.

 

In '10 he was an out-of-shape slob.  That is why he had to settle for a league minimum contract with the Eagles in '11.  Mathis even admitted he was out of shape and made a video documenting getting himself back in shape in the off season before '11.

If true you make some good points. That stated, I recall a great deal of frustration in regards to Mathis/Livings. Every time in which Mathis got a chance to play, he graded very high yet kept taking a backseat to Livings whom wasnt that impressive in my book.

[fredtoast]

4 minutes ago, cwing said:

Every time in which Mathis got a chance to play, he graded very high yet kept taking a backseat to Livings whom wasnt that impressive in my book.

Alexander started Mathis over Livings until Mathis got injured.