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Kipers first mock draft


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10 hours ago, SF2 said:

I am not saying he is a bad linebacker, far from it.  What I will say is the 2 teams with the best defenses in the league lost yesterday to the teams with better offenses.  The rule changes have swung way to the side of offense.  We won't go anywhere without a much better offense, particularly the offensive line.

 

One fact most overlook is despite all of the hate for Blake Bortles, the Jags had the 5th ranked offense for points and 6th for total yards.   Their passing was ranked 17th in yards while ours was ranked 27th.  They had a good offense and were good enough to win yesterday.  Their offensive coordinator chickened out.  Running on every first down was so predictable and cowardly.

We also won't go anywhere without someone that can cover tes and rbs. And the jags also averages 67 offensive plays per game 3rd in the league bc of that great defense. I'm a fan of going oline 2nd and both third round picks. But when were picking that high we need a game changer. And no olineman is a game changer that we can't get a slightly lesser version in the second round.

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2 hours ago, Jpoore said:

We also won't go anywhere without someone that can cover tes and rbs. And the jags also averages 67 offensive plays per game 3rd in the league bc of that great defense. I'm a fan of going oline 2nd and both third round picks. But when were picking that high we need a game changer. And no olineman is a game changer that we can't get a slightly lesser version in the second round.

AJ Green is a game changer.  Mixon can be with a better line.  WJ3 looks like he can be a game changer.  Burfict is a game changer.  Atkins is a game changer.  

 

Fixing the O-line is Job 1.

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41 minutes ago, Jason said:

AJ Green is a game changer.  Mixon can be with a better line.  WJ3 looks like he can be a game changer.  Burfict is a game changer.  Atkins is a game changer.  

 

Fixing the O-line is Job 1.

Fixing the OL is obviously important but that doesn't mean you absolutely have to dump all of your top resources into it. OL isn't our only problem, just the biggest one. I don't see it being an issue to go defense with the 12th overall pick and then focus on the OL in the 2nd-4th. The NFL draft isn't really a vacuum situation, you have to look at which guys are probably going to be there with your pick and where the talent dropoffs come in at each position. You can (most likely) still get a really good OT prospect in the 2nd round in the 2018 draft but you're less likely to land a safety anywhere near Derwin James level in the 2nd or later, just as an example.

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53 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Fixing the OL is obviously important but that doesn't mean you absolutely have to dump all of your top resources into it. OL isn't our only problem, just the biggest one. I don't see it being an issue to go defense with the 12th overall pick and then focus on the OL in the 2nd-4th. The NFL draft isn't really a vacuum situation, you have to look at which guys are probably going to be there with your pick and where the talent dropoffs come in at each position. You can (most likely) still get a really good OT prospect in the 2nd round in the 2018 draft but you're less likely to land a safety anywhere near Derwin James level in the 2nd or later, just as an example.

IMO we need to add 4 starting quality O-linemen. Now, if we can get a couple of those in free agency that reduces the need to draft one in 1. 

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

IMO we need to add 4 starting quality O-linemen. Now, if we can get a couple of those in free agency that reduces the need to draft one in 1. 

Ha ha ha ha haha!!!!!!!!

 

How are they going to know how many are left to draft when our FA starts well after the draft?

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

IMO we need to add 4 starting quality O-linemen. Now, if we can get a couple of those in free agency that reduces the need to draft one in 1. 

I think we need at least 2, and maybe 3. You've got Boling - and I believe that either Westerman or Redmond (my bet is on Redmond) can be a good G, or possibly Westerman at C. Both guys get movement in the run game, and have the kind of temperament that you like in an OL. I don't want Bodine at all... between low snaps, getting pushed back pretty routinely and no athletic ability, I'm done. 

 

I don't think either Hopkins or TJ Johnson is starter quality, and even if they re-sign Andre Smith, he's your swing backup T.  And while neither has shown enough on a consistent basis, I can't believe that both Ced and Fisher are busts. I'm hoping that the new OL coach can salvage at least one into becoming a solid starter... but there's Fisher's medical issue and Ced, who I thought improved last year, still gave up way too many bad plays - at least one or two a game that were egregious. Maybe it's focus, I don't know... but both guys are plenty athletic and have tools to work with. I'm interested to see what happens in FA and in the draft... that will tell us what we need to know about the current OL on the roster. 

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On 1/20/2018 at 6:34 PM, Jpoore said:

I'm sorry but have u watched his tape? His best attribute is his football iq and instincts followed closely by his ability to cover lbs and rbs. His spatial awareness and his quickness in a body that big is unique. In zone coverage he's good but he excels in man coverage. He recognizes plays as soon as they're formed and he takes perfect angles to the ball, which is why he always beat the ball carrier to the spot.

Ummm, no. That's not what his tape shows. Heck that's not even what his draft write-ups say.

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On 1/20/2018 at 1:53 PM, T-Dub said:

 

Yeah, any college LB with the potential to be a 1st round draft pick is going to be a good hitter.  Maualuga was a good hitter in college.  These guys get in the NFL and the big hits turn into missed tackles.

But.... But.... McShay has him ranked #7 in January!!!!

Dude has 1 pick in 3 years of college ball. FYI, I'm from Virginia and have been watching this kid since he played HS ball in Danville. He's a guy you look at and think "He's going to be great in 2-3 years!" But then Margus Hunt had freaky measurables and he's played so little football... "He's going to be great in 2-3 years!!!!"

He's big, fast, and physical. IMHO, he's going to be a great pass rushing LB who can even kick inside if need be... In a 4-3 he'd be a great joker. But I don't think he goes in the top 10 come April.

 

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33 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

But.... But.... McShay has him ranked #7 in January!!!!

Dude has 1 pick in 3 years of college ball. FYI, I'm from Virginia and have been watching this kid since he played HS ball in Danville. He's a guy you look at and think "He's going to be great in 2-3 years!" But then Margus Hunt had freaky measurables and he's played so little football... "He's going to be great in 2-3 years!!!!"

He's big, fast, and physical. IMHO, he's going to be a great pass rushing LB who can even kick inside if need be... In a 4-3 he'd be a great joker. But I don't think he goes in the top 10 come April.

 

 

To be fair my reluctance has more to do with our miserable record of early draft pick LB's than this kid individually.  

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1 hour ago, texbengal said:

I think we need at least 2, and maybe 3. You've got Boling - and I believe that either Westerman or Redmond (my bet is on Redmond) can be a good G, or possibly Westerman at C. Both guys get movement in the run game, and have the kind of temperament that you like in an OL. I don't want Bodine at all... between low snaps, getting pushed back pretty routinely and no athletic ability, I'm done. 

 

I don't think either Hopkins or TJ Johnson is starter quality, and even if they re-sign Andre Smith, he's your swing backup T.  And while neither has shown enough on a consistent basis, I can't believe that both Ced and Fisher are busts. I'm hoping that the new OL coach can salvage at least one into becoming a solid starter... but there's Fisher's medical issue and Ced, who I thought improved last year, still gave up way too many bad plays - at least one or two a game that were egregious. Maybe it's focus, I don't know... but both guys are plenty athletic and have tools to work with. I'm interested to see what happens in FA and in the draft... that will tell us what we need to know about the current OL on the roster. 

I’m hesitant to say a guy who didn’t play the first 14 games and comes in fresh and plays well for 2 weeks against guys who have been beaten up for 14 weeks is an answer. Not saying they can’t be, but the evaluation has to take that into account. They earned a shot but not a guarantee IMO. 

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5 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Fixing the OL is obviously important but that doesn't mean you absolutely have to dump all of your top resources into it. OL isn't our only problem, just the biggest one. I don't see it being an issue to go defense with the 12th overall pick and then focus on the OL in the 2nd-4th. The NFL draft isn't really a vacuum situation, you have to look at which guys are probably going to be there with your pick and where the talent dropoffs come in at each position. You can (most likely) still get a really good OT prospect in the 2nd round in the 2018 draft but you're less likely to land a safety anywhere near Derwin James level in the 2nd or later, just as an example.

I agree with this. I think we all agree that if that top tier offensive lineman is there at #12, you take him and move on. BUT...if that's not the case...grab a player you need at LB, S, DT, DE and go get someone on the next round. If these asshats would actually make a move in free agency and pick up a lineman or two (I know) it could change the whole game come the draft.

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31 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

To be fair my reluctance has more to do with our miserable record of early draft pick LB's than this kid individually.  

Drafting linebackers period during the Marvin Lewis era:

 

Jordan Evans

Nick Vigil

Paul Dawson

Marquis Flowers

Sean Porter

Dontay Moch

Rodderick Muckelroy

Rey Maualuga

Keith Rivers

AJ "Taser Tits" Nicholson
Odell Thurman

Caleb Miller

Landon Johnson

Khalid "Mini Ray Lewis" Abdullah

 

That's ugly. And aren't LBs supposed to be Marvin's "specialty"?

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2 hours ago, BengalFanInTO said:

Drafting linebackers period during the Marvin Lewis era:

 

Jordan Evans

Nick Vigil

Paul Dawson

Marquis Flowers

Sean Porter

Dontay Moch

Rodderick Muckelroy

Rey Maualuga

Keith Rivers

AJ "Taser Tits" Nicholson
Odell Thurman

Caleb Miller

Landon Johnson

Khalid "Mini Ray Lewis" Abdullah

 

That's ugly. And aren't LBs supposed to be Marvin's "specialty"?

Because he was fortunate enough to coach great LBs picked by Ozzie Newsome?

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12 hours ago, Jason said:

AJ Green is a game changer.  Mixon can be with a better line.  WJ3 looks like he can be a game changer.  Burfict is a game changer.  Atkins is a game changer.  

 

Fixing the O-line is Job 1.

Yes it is. But it's not the only job. If we went say edmunds In 1, will Hernandez or billy price  in 2nd Isiah Wynn in the 3rd and jamarco Jones in the third we fixed it.

7 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Ummm, no. That's not what his tape shows. Heck that's not even what his draft write-ups say.

Edmunds is listed at 6’5 and 236 pounds on the Virginia Tech roster, and he moves incredibly well for a player of that size. He displays remarkable quickness, agility, and balance on a consistent basis and shows the flexibility in his lower body to change direction on a dime with no wasted motion. He possesses explosive athletic traits that are off the charts and these traits allow him to excel at the college level.

25517090373_West_Virginia_v_Virginia_Tec
Photo by Tony Quinn/Icon Sportswire

SCOUTING NOTES

Virginia Tech LB Tremaine Edmunds a very special prospect

Scott Bischoff
Published on January 20, 2018
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Virginia Tech OLB Tremaine Edmunds is one of the most intriguing prospects in the entire 2018 NFL draft class, he is capable of winning on the football field in a slew of ways. I tend to want to shy away from making comparisons as I think that is a tough task, but when watching Edmunds, I am definitely getting a feeling that I am watching Jaylon Smith back in his Notre Dame days, and it is in the way Edmunds moves.

Edmunds is listed at 6’5 and 236 pounds on the Virginia Tech roster, and he moves incredibly well for a player of that size. He displays remarkable quickness, agility, and balance on a consistent basis and shows the flexibility in his lower body to change direction on a dime with no wasted motion. He possesses explosive athletic traits that are off the charts and these traits allow him to excel at the college level.

 

giphy.gif

In the above video, Edmunds is covering the man in the slot but leaves him when he passes his man onto another defender. Clemson needs four yards on third down, and Clemson quarterback Kelly Bryant leaves the pocket with a lane opening. Edmunds reads the quarterback’s eyes and knows he is running and attacks downhill to make an open-field stop on Bryant.

Edmunds makes this plays because he is explosive coming forward and very technically strong as a tackler (we will see this over and over). Also, note the hit takes Bryant backward several yards. Edmunds makes contact at the Virginia Tech 49-yard line and Kelly hits the ground at his 48-yard line (my math says that is nine feet).

giphy.gif

There is not a lot to see out of Edmunds as a pure pass rusher in his role with the Hokies defense, but that does not mean he is not able to do it. In the above video, you can see Edmunds corner and bend as he chases the running back.

No, he is not rushing the passer in this rep, but the traits are there if you are looking for them. You can see him explode up the field, turn the corner and do it with no wasted motion. Edmunds turns at an incredibly sharp angle to chase the ball carrier and I think the traits on display here can help him as a pass rusher, a blitzer, or a player in pursuit of the ball carrier.

giphy.gif

As I noted above, Edmunds can be a lethal blitzer because he can close outrageously fast. He takes an excellent angle in the above video and attacks the quarterback on a delayed blitz, and he closes so quickly that the quarterback has to get rid of the ball too soon and it leads to an interception.

giphy.gif

One of Edmunds’ better traits is his ability to drop away from the line of scrimmage into coverage. He gets solid depth and does a great job of making plays that develop in front of him. You can see in the video that he is lined up covering the slot receiver. He showcases very efficient footwork working through his backpedal and once he recognizes the slant route, he explodes out of his pedal to break on the ball.

His footwork is not clunky or out of rhythm and that efficiency gives Edmunds the ability to break up the pass. It is another of the traits we will repeatedly see with Edmunds as his footwork is stellar. He has light feet and can change direction in a flash to get to spots on the field that others may not.

His transition is very smooth as he can flip his hips and turn and run with ease. He moves with excellent fluidity to stay tight in coverage on running backs and tight ends. He also shows excellent instincts running in coverage as he can handle the wheel route and also does not get picked when offense run rub concepts at him.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jason said:

2 O-linemen won't fix our line unless we also sign 2 in free agency.

First of all, if Mike McGlinchey is still on the board and we choose a linebacker, then I am done with this club.  That is assuming he doesn't rape a seal or say something mean about Haiti before draft day.

 

If any of Darnold, Rosen, Allen or Mayfield is still on the board, we might be able to trade our pick down, pick up another second and pick up 2 decent tackles and a guard depending on draft slot.    This will add to the very good guard we will pick up in FA.  Maybe take a center.   Of course none of this will ever happen. Not even the very good guard in FA.

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41 minutes ago, SF2 said:

First of all, if Mike McGlinchey is still on the board and we choose a linebacker, then I am done with this club.  That is assuming he doesn't rape a seal or say something mean about Haiti before draft day.

 

If any of Darnold, Rosen, Allen or Mayfield is still on the board, we might be able to trade our pick down, pick up another second and pick up 2 decent tackles and a guard depending on draft slot.    This will add to the very good guard we will pick up in FA.  Maybe take a center.   Of course none of this will ever happen. Not even the very good guard in FA.

U better hope they don't grab mcg. He struggles massively against leverage speed rushers, which makes up 80 percent off NFL pass rushers. They should draft a high upside tackle late after building up the interior oline early.

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7 hours ago, Jpoore said:

U better hope they don't grab mcg. He struggles massively against leverage speed rushers, which makes up 80 percent off NFL pass rushers. They should draft a high upside tackle late after building up the interior oline early.

So you want another non-playoff season?

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Again, this notion that they're going to draft 3 immediate starter-quality linemen is pure fantasy.   And yeah, I'm sure some club somewhere started 3 rookies on their OL and didn't have a shitshow of a season.  That's called an outlier, like how the fact that your grandpa smoked a pack a day and died of old age at 102 doesn't mean smoking is good for you.

 

The draft & FA's are not going to "fix" this OL in one offseason.  At least some of the guys already on the roster are going to need to step it up  The window for this group to accomplish anything is closing.  A raft of good 2018 draft picks will be great 3 years from now.  Hanging the 2018 season on them is a shitty plan.

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7 hours ago, Jpoore said:

U better hope they don't grab mcg. He struggles massively against leverage speed rushers, which makes up 80 percent off NFL pass rushers. They should draft a high upside tackle late after building up the interior oline early.

 

This is one of the few times that I'm 100% in agreement with you. With the million stupid things the Bengals have done, passing on McGlinchey making someone stop being a Bengals fan sounds....strange. He's certainly not a can't miss prospect or anything, I have no idea why people are so high on him. There's a lot of talk that he may not even be a LT at the next level. I could understand being pissed if Quenton Nelson is there and we pass on him, but McGlinchey is a guy that I would totally understand wanting to stay away from.

 

36 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

Again, this notion that they're going to draft 3 immediate starter-quality linemen is pure fantasy.   And yeah, I'm sure some club somewhere started 3 rookies on their OL and didn't have a shitshow of a season.  That's called an outlier, like how the fact that your grandpa smoked a pack a day and died of old age at 102 doesn't mean smoking is good for you.

 

The draft & FA's are not going to "fix" this OL in one offseason.  At least some of the guys already on the roster are going to need to step it up  The window for this group to accomplish anything is closing.  A raft of good 2018 draft picks will be great 3 years from now.  Hanging the 2018 season on them is a shitty plan.

 

Ehhhh, a combination of both could easily "fix" the OL in the sense that it could be average to above average if they actually make noise in free agency. I'd agree with you if you said that it's unlikely to fix it via only the draft (like the Bengals will probably try to do), but using free agency and the draft could definitely do some serious work if the team recognizes just how bad the OL really is. I don't think we fix the line with free agency or the draft, but we could fix it using both. Of course I'm also not one of the guys like Jason who believe we need 4 new starters. Boling, Redmond, and Smith may very well be starting linemen for us next year. Boling/draftpick/freeagent/Redmond/Smith would be an OK offensive line for 2018 IMO. At least I should say I'd rather see that starting 5 over what we trotted out on opening day 2017.

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15 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

 

Ehhhh, a combination of both could easily "fix" the OL in the sense that it could be average to above average if they actually make noise in free agency. I'd agree with you if you said that it's unlikely to fix it via only the draft (like the Bengals will probably try to do), but using free agency and the draft could definitely do some serious work if the team recognizes just how bad the OL really is. I don't think we fix the line with free agency or the draft, but we could fix it using both. Of course I'm also not one of the guys like Jason who believe we need 4 new starters. Boling, Redmond, and Smith may very well be starting linemen for us next year. Boling/draftpick/freeagent/Redmond/Smith would be an OK offensive line for 2018 IMO. At least I should say I'd rather see that starting 5 over what we trotted out on opening day 2017.

 

But they're probably not; Bengals FA is extending their own guys if Redeemer thinks they've earned enough GBP & then digging through the bargain basement for whoever is left after the teams who aren't counting 2020 draft picks against their salary cap get done making moves.

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44 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

But they're probably not; Bengals FA is extending their own guys if Redeemer thinks they've earned enough GBP & then digging through the bargain basement for whoever is left after the teams who aren't counting 2020 draft picks against their salary cap get done making moves.

Very true, but how hard/expensive will it be to find an upgrade to what we've seen on our line in 2017? I'm not trying to say we're going to see elite level OL play in 2018, but I do think it can be easily improved. When you're THAT bad, improvement shouldn't be very difficult lol

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33 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Very true, but how hard/expensive will it be to find an upgrade to what we've seen on our line in 2017? I'm not trying to say we're going to see elite level OL play in 2018, but I do think it can be easily improved. When you're THAT bad, improvement shouldn't be very difficult lol

Agreed, but Mikey's recent interview has me feeling even less hope than usual that we'll do anything materially useful in FA.  

 

For those that didn't read it, he said the following in response to a question about getting key players in FA:

 

1. Only teams at the very top of the "cap space" list do that [false].  

2. The Bengals are always "middle of the pack" in cap room [false].

3. The Bengals' philosophy is "sign our own", and if there is "anything left after that", go for some FA's [philosophically true, mixed results in practice (Whitworth)].

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not a proponent of "big splash" FA's unless they are absolute studs who don't have too many miles on them, which rarely happens.  I wouldn't have paid Zeitler what he got, for example, but I damn sure would have extended him earlier at a nicer price point (granted they may have tried, but I expect Mike "Nickel and Dime" Brown would have made it a hardball exercise, which for some is an insult).  I do appreciate that the Bengals are never in "cap hell" but I'd be more than happy for them to at least once try "going for it" for a couple of seasons and having some cuts and cap dancing to do after that.

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