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Bengals Need a Quick Rebuild & Here's How


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I've been thinking about this for a while (probably because I care way too much about the Bengals).  We're in a really weird situation.  Most of our guys are in their primes or at the end of it, and based on how teams are winning Superbowls we've got the wrong formula, but can fix it by next season...here's how.

 

1.  Trade AJ...AJ Green.

Crazy...I know, but hear me out.  Look at the last ten Superbowl winners (Patriots, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Ravens, Giants, Packers, Saints, Stealers, Giants).  The thing they have in common is they don't have a great WR either.  You don't need a great WR to put up points, you need a QB that doesn't turn the ball over, and can make a few big throws in crucial moments.  The other thing you need is an offensive line that can protect and do decent in the running game, and a good defense.  People like to say the Pats have a bad defense, but their defense is alway competitive and takes the offense out of their comfort zone.  Even this year, they started slow and have been good after the first month of the season.  The teams left (Jax, Min, Philly) all have really good defenses and average to below average QBs.  Trading AJ would allow us to get more pieces for the offensive line or on defense.  As much as I love AJ, the reason J. Ramsey bothers me so much when he calls him soft, is because AJ is a little soft.  We need WRs that hit back (legally) when they get hit in the mouth.  We need WRs that will block on running plays and are a little more physical.  AJ is great and should be in the HOF if he has three or four more great years, but the reality of the situation is he's nearing the end of his prime and I don't know that his value will ever be higher than it is right now.  If we get WRs in here that have roles (big possession WR, the speedy-downfield WR (Ross?), the 3rd down, reliable WR (Boyd/Malone?)

 

2.  Get Good LBs

Outside of Burfict, our LBs are all below average in coverage and vs. the run.  We need those smaller, fast LBs who can cover RBs out of the backfield and make TEs make contested catches.  Vigil has the body type and speed, but he's just not that good yet.  Burfict is a little slow-footed, but he makes up for it with great anticipation and knowledge.  What we don't have is that ultra athletic LB that can play all over the field and cause havoc.  Those guys are hard to find, but there may be one in the draft...Mr. Roquan Smith from Georgia.  Plug him and Burfict in the defense and our pass coverage and sideline to sideline defense vs. the run improves greatly.  

 

3.  Offensive & Defensive Lines

I know these are two seperate things, but if you don't have a great QB, you need to protect him and if you don't have a great secondary, you need to get to the QB. 

 

Offensive line:  Our offensive line was nothing less than pathetic and it needs to get better.  I don't believe you have to spend a fortune, but you do need to spend some money.  Ced got better near the end of the year, but he still wasn't great.  Dre did well on the right side and should re-signed if possible.  The middle of the line needs work.  The young guys showed promise at the end of the season and Bodine would be a good backup.  if you can re-sign Bodine and get a center in the 2nd round of the draft for FA (assuming there's someone there worth drafting) you do it and don't look back.  It's almost worth it, IMO, to trade back up into the 1st round if there's a C/G there you really like.  Protecting Andy and getting Mixon and Gio loose are huge.

 

Defensive Line: They're not as good as they should be.  It sounds like we're going to try to extend Geno and Carlos and these will probably be their last big contracts so we can expect their play to level off over the next few years unfortunately.  It's still the right move to extend them both.  We still need another DE, Willis is solid and is good in a rotation, but I'm not sure if he'll ever be the guy.  Lawson came in on passing downs and provided a good rush and hopefully he gets even better next year.  The thing that the Giants showed us is you can't have too many pass rushers so if we can add a middle of the road veteran who can give us 6-8 sacks next season that would be good.  The middle of our line was pretty soft too.  I'm not sure if our run D was bad because of the LBs or the DTs.  I think Billings will be better next year, but we still need another big body to eat double teams and free up the LBs.  It's great if you can find a guy that can penetrate as well, but those guys are rare.  Adding one more capable, big body here will help the line out tremendously.  He doesn't have to be great, but he needs to be stout and able to hold his ground vs. a double team.

 

4.  Coach Kirpatrick or move on/secondary help

I know we just signed him to a large contract, but he gets way too many PI or holding calls that extend drives.  The guy will makes some plays, but it doesn't make up for the errors.  If we can get him to stop making penalties, he's good enough to be the 2nd corner.  The way WJIII is trending he'll be fine on one side which will allow us to give Kirk some help when necessary.  We could use another safety in place of Shawn Williams, but Williams is good enough to hold not be terrible.  Iloka, IMO, took a step back this year and needs to just be the guy that doesn't allow us to get beat over the top.  He seemed to miss a lot of tackles on RBs this year too and i don't remember that too much in previous year.  I think we could find a decent safety in FA that could work in with Iloka, Williams and Fej.

 

Trading AJ would be the key to all of this, it would net us a couple of good picks since he's still in his prime.  The key to everything for our Superbowl next year is the offensive line and the defense.  We have enough pieces on defense to be solid (Carlos, Geno, WJIII, Burfict) and if we can add two or 3 more pieces here via free agency or the draft, we can have a great defense for a couple of years while Geno and Carlos wind their careers down.  The thing I didn't mention here is QB and that's because Andy is good enough to get us where we need to go.  He can't do it by himself, which no QB can, but if we build that team around him he'll be fine.

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

They may not have had great WRs, but most (all?) of them had QBs better than Andy.  AJ makes Andy better.  Andy needs weapons.

I agree, but Andy had better numbers than Eli until that Superbowl.  Also, the $$ you would save not having AJ you'd be able to pour more into the defense and the o-line.  Trust me, I'd hate to see AJ go, but I think it would be in the team's best interest.  Look at the Jags this year.  Andy is better than Bortles, but the Jags D is much better than ours.  We're better at every skill position, QB included, than the Jags and we couldn't even make the playoffs in the weak AFC.  

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3 hours ago, WRAPradio said:

I've been thinking about this for a while (probably because I care way too much about the Bengals).  We're in a really weird situation.  Most of our guys are in their primes or at the end of it, and based on how teams are winning Superbowls we've got the wrong formula, but can fix it by next season...here's how.

 

1.  Trade AJ...AJ Green.

 

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4 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

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Haha...I expected stuff like this, but I'm serious.  I love AJ, but I think it's been proven over the past decade+ that star receivers don't win you Superbowls, completed teams do...and when you're pouring your money into the skill positions and not defense and offensive line you've got a lower ceiling.

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8 minutes ago, WRAPradio said:

Haha...I expected stuff like this, but I'm serious.  I love AJ, but I think it's been proven over the past decade+ that star receivers don't win you Superbowls, completed teams do...and when you're pouring your money into the skill positions and not defense and offensive line you've got a lower ceiling.

 

You'd be trading him for picks which are the equivalent of magic beans.  Nobody is going to trade us a 29 year old, Top 5 OT straight up.  We already have the draft picks anyway so what's the point?

 

Much more likely to revisit that McSkeeter trade with the Turds & hope their fax machine isn't out of paper

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1 hour ago, Jpoore said:

1. Don't trade aj at all. Vikings and eagles both have a great receiving Corp. 

3. U misspelled his name. It's trumain Edmunds from VA tech.

 1.  They may have great receiver corps, but they don't have a guy that commands a top 5 salary at that position.  Because of that, they can spend the money elsewhere to build a great tham around the mediocre QBs.

 

3.  Hahaha.  I saw you posted something about him in another thread, I haven't seen much Va. Tech this year so I don't know anything about him other than what others are saying.

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9 hours ago, WRAPradio said:

I've been thinking about this for a while (probably because I care way too much about the Bengals).  We're in a really weird situation.  Most of our guys are in their primes or at the end of it, and based on how teams are winning Superbowls we've got the wrong formula, but can fix it by next season...here's how.

 

1.  Trade AJ...AJ Green.

Crazy...I know, but hear me out.  Look at the last ten Superbowl winners (Patriots, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Ravens, Giants, Packers, Saints, Stealers, Giants).  The thing they have in common is they don't have a great WR either.  You don't need a great WR to put up points, you need a QB that doesn't turn the ball over, and can make a few big throws in crucial moments.  The other thing you need is an offensive line that can protect and do decent in the running game, and a good defense.  People like to say the Pats have a bad defense, but their defense is alway competitive and takes the offense out of their comfort zone.  Even this year, they started slow and have been good after the first month of the season.  The teams left (Jax, Min, Philly) all have really good defenses and average to below average QBs.  Trading AJ would allow us to get more pieces for the offensive line or on defense.  As much as I love AJ, the reason J. Ramsey bothers me so much when he calls him soft, is because AJ is a little soft.  We need WRs that hit back (legally) when they get hit in the mouth.  We need WRs that will block on running plays and are a little more physical.  AJ is great and should be in the HOF if he has three or four more great years, but the reality of the situation is he's nearing the end of his prime and I don't know that his value will ever be higher than it is right now.  If we get WRs in here that have roles (big possession WR, the speedy-downfield WR (Ross?), the 3rd down, reliable WR (Boyd/Malone?)

 

2.  Get Good LBs

Outside of Burfict, our LBs are all below average in coverage and vs. the run.  We need those smaller, fast LBs who can cover RBs out of the backfield and make TEs make contested catches.  Vigil has the body type and speed, but he's just not that good yet.  Burfict is a little slow-footed, but he makes up for it with great anticipation and knowledge.  What we don't have is that ultra athletic LB that can play all over the field and cause havoc.  Those guys are hard to find, but there may be one in the draft...Mr. Roquan Smith from Georgia.  Plug him and Burfict in the defense and our pass coverage and sideline to sideline defense vs. the run improves greatly.  

 

3.  Offensive & Defensive Lines

I know these are two seperate things, but if you don't have a great QB, you need to protect him and if you don't have a great secondary, you need to get to the QB. 

 

Offensive line:  Our offensive line was nothing less than pathetic and it needs to get better.  I don't believe you have to spend a fortune, but you do need to spend some money.  Ced got better near the end of the year, but he still wasn't great.  Dre did well on the right side and should re-signed if possible.  The middle of the line needs work.  The young guys showed promise at the end of the season and Bodine would be a good backup.  if you can re-sign Bodine and get a center in the 2nd round of the draft for FA (assuming there's someone there worth drafting) you do it and don't look back.  It's almost worth it, IMO, to trade back up into the 1st round if there's a C/G there you really like.  Protecting Andy and getting Mixon and Gio loose are huge.

 

Defensive Line: They're not as good as they should be.  It sounds like we're going to try to extend Geno and Carlos and these will probably be their last big contracts so we can expect their play to level off over the next few years unfortunately.  It's still the right move to extend them both.  We still need another DE, Willis is solid and is good in a rotation, but I'm not sure if he'll ever be the guy.  Lawson came in on passing downs and provided a good rush and hopefully he gets even better next year.  The thing that the Giants showed us is you can't have too many pass rushers so if we can add a middle of the road veteran who can give us 6-8 sacks next season that would be good.  The middle of our line was pretty soft too.  I'm not sure if our run D was bad because of the LBs or the DTs.  I think Billings will be better next year, but we still need another big body to eat double teams and free up the LBs.  It's great if you can find a guy that can penetrate as well, but those guys are rare.  Adding one more capable, big body here will help the line out tremendously.  He doesn't have to be great, but he needs to be stout and able to hold his ground vs. a double team.

 

4.  Coach Kirpatrick or move on/secondary help

I know we just signed him to a large contract, but he gets way too many PI or holding calls that extend drives.  The guy will makes some plays, but it doesn't make up for the errors.  If we can get him to stop making penalties, he's good enough to be the 2nd corner.  The way WJIII is trending he'll be fine on one side which will allow us to give Kirk some help when necessary.  We could use another safety in place of Shawn Williams, but Williams is good enough to hold not be terrible.  Iloka, IMO, took a step back this year and needs to just be the guy that doesn't allow us to get beat over the top.  He seemed to miss a lot of tackles on RBs this year too and i don't remember that too much in previous year.  I think we could find a decent safety in FA that could work in with Iloka, Williams and Fej.

 

Trading AJ would be the key to all of this, it would net us a couple of good picks since he's still in his prime.  The key to everything for our Superbowl next year is the offensive line and the defense.  We have enough pieces on defense to be solid (Carlos, Geno, WJIII, Burfict) and if we can add two or 3 more pieces here via free agency or the draft, we can have a great defense for a couple of years while Geno and Carlos wind their careers down.  The thing I didn't mention here is QB and that's because Andy is good enough to get us where we need to go.  He can't do it by himself, which no QB can, but if we build that team around him he'll be fine.

Lost me completely right there.

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9 hours ago, WRAPradio said:

 1.  They may have great receiver corps, but they don't have a guy that commands a top 5 salary at that position.  Because of that, they can spend the money elsewhere to build a great tham around the mediocre QBs.

 

3.  Hahaha.  I saw you posted something about him in another thread, I haven't seen much Va. Tech this year so I don't know anything about him other than what others are saying.

Alshons getting all Ike 14 million per year but I see ur point in salary. But if u look at these teams they have really really good pass catchers down the whole team. Pat's(cooks, edleman, ammendola, Hogan, gronk). Vikings(Rudolph, diggs, thelien) eagles(Jeffery, ertz, Smith, algalor). And u gotta see. This dude. Best part about it is he's got a lot of film up since he's been getting a lot of media attention. Draftbreakdown.com. get his tape up.

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52 minutes ago, schotzee said:

The Stealers don't have a great wide receiver? I hate him but...:blink:

 

AB wasn't even in the league when they won the SB.  I was naming Superbowl winning teams -- Stealers won in 2009 and drafted AB in 2010..and haven't won a SB since.  Not saying he's the reason they haven't won, my whole point is I think it's difficult to win with a star receiver b/c you need to allocate so much salary and there's not enough money to go around for the o-line and defense.  If we didn't have AJ's contract, may we would have kept Whit, maybe not.  The WR position is the most dependent position on the field.  The line has to block, the other WRs have to draw coverage, the QB has to get you the ball on time -- if all of those other things aren't in order there's nothing a WR can do to contribute.

 

5 hours ago, Jpoore said:

Alshons getting all Ike 14 million per year but I see ur point in salary. But if u look at these teams they have really really good pass catchers down the whole team. Pat's(cooks, edleman, ammendola, Hogan, gronk). Vikings(Rudolph, diggs, thelien) eagles(Jeffery, ertz, Smith, algalor). And u gotta see. This dude. Best part about it is he's got a lot of film up since he's been getting a lot of media attention. Draftbreakdown.com. get his tape up.

Agreed, they do have good pass catcher up and down the roster, but individually none of them are special.  I'd venture to say (without thinking about it) there are at least 10 receivers most people would agree are better than Alshon Jeffery.  The only elite receivers in the league IMO are AB, AJ, Julio, OBJ and Hopkins.  Out of that group only Juilo's been in the Superbowl and they didn't' win (they should have, but didn't).  After that group you've got a group of really good guys that shouldn't command top dollar.

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1 minute ago, omgdrdoom said:

Recent Super Bowl winning teams didn't have an elite 4-3 DT.

 

Trade Geno :rolleyes:

That would go against me saying you need a great defense.  I get the sarcasm, though.  I didn't expect many, if any to agree, just my thoughts on how Superbowl winning teams are actually constructed.  It's not like we've had Superbowl success with how we're doing it.  Everyone clamors for change, but if it's something that goes against popular opinion it's categorized as crazy.  I don't know if it would work or not, but I'd bet almost anything that we won't win a Superbowl while AJ is here in his prime.  And if that's the case, why keep him when you could get great value for him and possibly win without him (based on how others have won the SB).  I could see if teams were constantly winning with great WRs, but that's just not the case and there COULD be a reason why.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying that's the only thing we'd need to do, but it would free us up to sign/draft other players.

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1 minute ago, WRAPradio said:

That would go against me saying you need a great defense.  I get the sarcasm, though.  I didn't expect many, if any to agree, just my thoughts on how Superbowl winning teams are actually constructed.  It's not like we've had Superbowl success with how we're doing it.  Everyone clamors for change, but if it's something that goes against popular opinion it's categorized as crazy.  I don't know if it would work or not, but I'd bet almost anything that we won't win a Superbowl while AJ is here in his prime.  And if that's the case, why keep him when you could get great value for him and possibly win without him (based on how others have won the SB).  I could see if teams were constantly winning with great WRs, but that's just not the case and there COULD be a reason why.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying that's the only thing we'd need to do, but it would free us up to sign/draft other players.

 

How many recent SB teams have had a shitty offense? That's why you don't trade the only elite player on that side of the ball.

 

Salary cap management is tough and having to decide where to allocate money can be quite the decision at times, but you don't trade away your only top tier player on offense, you just don't do that. SB winning teams usually have Tom Brady and Bill Belichick on them but it's a lot easier said than done to find the GOAT QB and HC at the same time.

 

I think the premise of "SB winning teams didn't have a top 5 WR so we should trade our top 5 WR" is illogical and silly. Okay, once we go out and find our own Brady, Belichick, Gronk, McDaniels, etc. etc. then we can talk about trading Green.

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Now is not the time for a rebuild of any kind. Marvin needs to win with this group or it'll be time to blow it all up in two years when AJ becomes a free agent and Dalton is in the last year of his contract. What they need to do now is resign their own impending free agents, identify one or two free agents that they want to bring in and then have a good draft. 

 

My top free agent targets would be center Spencer Long (Washington) and wide receiver Mike Wallace (Baltimore). I'd like to see them bring back Bodine and Smith to the line, but I'd prefer if Bodine was moved to RG.

 

I would try to trade McCarron for a third rounder, assuming he's retained as a RFA, then in the draft I target DT in round 1, MLB in round 2, Safety and OT in round 3, LB in round 4.

 

Once again the season will come down to getting good tackle play and that will be the biggest question mark headed into the season, but the only way the Bengals can avoid that is by spending huge money in free agency as any rookie is by nature a question mark until they hit the field on Sundays, and we all know the Bengals aren't going out and signing two (let alone one) high priced tackle.

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13 minutes ago, BlaketoPickensfor6 said:

Now is not the time for a rebuild of any kind. Marvin needs to win with this group or it'll be time to blow it all up in two years when AJ becomes a free agent and Dalton is in the last year of his contract. What they need to do now is resign their own impending free agents, identify one or two free agents that they want to bring in and then have a good draft. 

 

My top free agent targets would be center Spencer Long (Washington) and wide receiver Mike Wallace (Baltimore). I'd like to see them bring back Bodine and Smith to the line, but I'd prefer if Bodine was moved to RG.

 

I would try to trade McCarron for a third rounder, assuming he's retained as a RFA, then in the draft I target DT in round 1, MLB in round 2, Safety and OT in round 3, LB in round 4.

 

Once again the season will come down to getting good tackle play and that will be the biggest question mark headed into the season, but the only way the Bengals can avoid that is by spending huge money in free agency as any rookie is by nature a question mark until they hit the field on Sundays, and we all know the Bengals aren't going out and signing two (let alone one) high priced tackle.

So the season comes down to good line play but you want us to target a bad center, an old WR, bring back one of our worst linemen, and only go OL 1 out of the first 4 rounds?

 

That's interesting, I'll say that much.

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56 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

So the season comes down to good line play but you want us to target a bad center, an old WR, bring back one of our worst linemen, and only go OL 1 out of the first 4 rounds?

 

That's interesting, I'll say that much.

Considering Spencer Long grades out pretty well in pass pro, and Bodine is pretty good run blocker, and Wallace averaged 14 ypc, and there's not going to be much difference talent-wise between a 1st round tackle and 3rd round tackle in this year's draft, and they've already got two third round picks and could possibly trade McCarron for another giving them the opportunity to take two tackles in the third, and they've already invested first round picks in tackles in recent years.... need I go on?

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6 minutes ago, BlaketoPickensfor6 said:

Considering Spencer Long grades out pretty well in pass pro, and Bodine is pretty good run blocker, and Wallace averaged 14 ypc, and there's not going to be much difference talent-wise between a 1st round tackle and 3rd round tackle in this year's draft, and they've already got two third round picks and could possibly trade McCarron for another giving them the opportunity to take two tackles in the third, and they've already invested first round picks in tackles in recent years.... need I go on?

Spencer Long isn't good. Russell Bodine isn't good. Mike Wallace is an okay WR but I'd rather just stick with LaFell at $4M next year in the role he'd be playing here. I'm fine with not going OT at #12 overall but you surely have to look at the interior linemen or consider going OL back to back in 2-3 or something similar if you go safety or LB in the first round. Yeah I'd be fine with that but you didn't mention taking multiple linemen at first which is why I thought it was strange. Who cares what we've invested (in the draft) recently? I don't care if our linemen are 5 first rounders, they aren't getting the job done and that's what matters. Bodine sucks, most of our line sucks, and Spencer Long surely isn't going to be the guy to fix our OL problems.

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I think you're a little harder on Bodine and Long than others, but to each their own. My point in the recent drafting of tackles is that throwing a high pick at a tackle isn't a guarantee. If you look at the top tackles in the league there's a pretty common trend, and that's that they were picked in the top 10. There's a few outliers like Whitworth who was drafted to play guard, Ryan Schraeder (undrafted), Donald Penn (undrafted), Jason Peters (undrafted), Terron Amsted (3rd round), David Bakhtiari (4th round). The Bengals aren't in position to draft a tackle in the top 10, and there's not a huge talent gap between the tackles that will be left after that, so I think spending a third round pick or two on the position is not neglecting it, but adding some quality talent that could push for a starting job. They drafted Ogbuehi and Fisher highly because they had the measurable sought in top shelf tackles, and if Pollack thinks he can coach them up they should be given a chance to win starting jobs since both of them are still really young. It's not time to give up on them IMO, since not every pro bowler plays like one right away.

 

If you get Wallace then it's time to show Lafell the door. They don't need a longterm answer, just a veteran that can push and possibly humble Ross enough that he becomes the unquestioned No. 2. In the event Ross is still a turd next season, at least Wallace gives you a vertical threat that Lafell does not.

 

I think the best way to give Marvin and Andy and AJ a chance to win and get deep in the playoffs is with a dominant defense, which is why I would spend 3-4 of my first 5 picks in the draft on that side of the ball. 

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