Jump to content

Bengals Need a Quick Rebuild & Here's How


Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, BlaketoPickensfor6 said:

I saw the line struggle at times, but I also didn't see much creativity in the playbook and the stubbornness of Alexander to change the blocking scheme has been well documented. I also know that they don't start 2018 where they started 2017, rather where they ended 2017, which wasn't bad by your own admission. So what's the big emergency on the line I wonder?

But they did change the blocking scheme after the first couple of weeks and we did see a slight improvement there, but the more noticeable change was when specific players were out of the lineup. That's the "big emergency" when I hear fans claiming that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't the problem here. Yes, coaching is part of it. Yes, RG play was pretty bad until Redmond played. Yes, we have other issues outside of those 3 guys. BUT...

 

The fact that we have other problems doesn't mean that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't problems themselves. I already told you that I'm not one of the guys that says we absolutely need to draft or sign 4 outside players or else we're doomed; I think Boling, Andre (at RT only), and Redmond should be the starters until unseated. A good free agent center and a 2nd round LG/LT would make our line serviceable, at least on paper IMO. I trust Pollack to find a guy in the draft and the team should really look at Weston Richburg as he shouldn't be super expensive.

 

I guess I just don't understand what you're arguing here for the most part. It seems like you realize the line sucked from your posts in other threads yet you're arguing with me here with the attitude that it's not so bad and you go as far as to blame Joe Mixon (LOL WHAT??) for our early struggles on offense. I don't think either of us believes that we need to see 4 new players here to have a decent line, but you seem to be putting waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much blame on coaching and scheme and letting the players off the hook too easily (except Mixon I guess). It's not a bad thing to admit that we just have some mediocre or worse players on this football team, it's not always the fault of a coach. Some of our players just suck, it is what it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Maybe the mopey SOB hopes to win a Superbowl but a goal is something you plan for and work towards, not something that simply happens because you think you're a good person.  He may want a championship, but not enough to change his approach.  It's not about achievement, it's about validation.  Success to him is conditional on being able to do things his way, what most people would call adapting to changing circumstances to him would be admitting he was wrong about something & he'd rather fail over and over again.

 

When you think about it, this gives Marvin a great deal of leverage.  If he were to leave and find success elsewhere, it would prove that the problems here were with the organization. He's still here after all this time because he serves as a lightning rod for Brown's ineptitude. If he left there'd be nothing stopping him from revealing just how dysfunctional the franchise really is behind closed doors.

Hopefully my sarcasm wasn't too lost on you....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

But they did change the blocking scheme after the first couple of weeks and we did see a slight improvement there, but the more noticeable change was when specific players were out of the lineup. That's the "big emergency" when I hear fans claiming that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't the problem here. Yes, coaching is part of it. Yes, RG play was pretty bad until Redmond played. Yes, we have other issues outside of those 3 guys. BUT...

 

The fact that we have other problems doesn't mean that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't problems themselves. I already told you that I'm not one of the guys that says we absolutely need to draft or sign 4 outside players or else we're doomed; I think Boling, Andre (at RT only), and Redmond should be the starters until unseated. A good free agent center and a 2nd round LG/LT would make our line serviceable, at least on paper IMO. I trust Pollack to find a guy in the draft and the team should really look at Weston Richburg as he shouldn't be super expensive.

 

I guess I just don't understand what you're arguing here for the most part. It seems like you realize the line sucked from your posts in other threads yet you're arguing with me here with the attitude that it's not so bad and you go as far as to blame Joe Mixon (LOL WHAT??) for our early struggles on offense. I don't think either of us believes that we need to see 4 new players here to have a decent line, but you seem to be putting waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much blame on coaching and scheme and letting the players off the hook too easily (except Mixon I guess). It's not a bad thing to admit that we just have some mediocre or worse players on this football team, it's not always the fault of a coach. Some of our players just suck, it is what it is.

I'm not sure why you're having trouble. We're in a thread about a "quick fix rebuild" where the OP wants to trade away AJ to get offensive linemen, and I think that's the wrong way to go about it. I also think going out and signing the highest priced free agents and using your first two picks in the draft are not the way to go about it, because I don't think the line is as bad as others. I did suggest taking linemen in the draft and signing one to two mid level free agents, so yeah I see a need to foster competition at the position but I also think it's possible Ogbuehi and Fisher win camp battles to start. You're right, I do blame coaching and scheme more for the offense's struggles throughout the early parts of the season, and the blocking scheme didn't change until around week 10 or 11, and you see the running game take off at that point. Mixon (and coaches) absolutely deserve some blame for the running game struggles as well. You may not remember but Mixon was free lancing at the beginning of the season and not running the plays as called because "that's how he did it at Oklahoma". He stopped doing that, and he started gaining yards, imagine that. Also, the running back rotation was a joke and really did more to hold the running game back than anything. I know this will be another unpopular opinion but Jeremy Hill was by far our best running back at the beginning of the season and he had some nice runs, but he was only getting 10 carries a game. That's bullshit, and that's on the coaches. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BlaketoPickensfor6 said:

I'm not sure why you're having trouble. We're in a thread about a "quick fix rebuild" where the OP wants to trade away AJ to get offensive linemen, and I think that's the wrong way to go about it. I also think going out and signing the highest priced free agents and using your first two picks in the draft are not the way to go about it, because I don't think the line is as bad as others. I did suggest taking linemen in the draft and signing one to two mid level free agents, so yeah I see a need to foster competition at the position but I also think it's possible Ogbuehi and Fisher win camp battles to start. You're right, I do blame coaching and scheme more for the offense's struggles throughout the early parts of the season, and the blocking scheme didn't change until around week 10 or 11, and you see the running game take off at that point. Mixon (and coaches) absolutely deserve some blame for the running game struggles as well. You may not remember but Mixon was free lancing at the beginning of the season and not running the plays as called because "that's how he did it at Oklahoma". He stopped doing that, and he started gaining yards, imagine that. Also, the running back rotation was a joke and really did more to hold the running game back than anything. I know this will be another unpopular opinion but Jeremy Hill was by far our best running back at the beginning of the season and he had some nice runs, but he was only getting 10 carries a game. That's bullshit, and that's on the coaches. 

I'll tell ya what, we'll just agree to disagree because I don't think either of us are changing each others mind about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

But they did change the blocking scheme after the first couple of weeks and we did see a slight improvement there, but the more noticeable change was when specific players were out of the lineup. That's the "big emergency" when I hear fans claiming that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't the problem here. Yes, coaching is part of it. Yes, RG play was pretty bad until Redmond played. Yes, we have other issues outside of those 3 guys. BUT...

 

The fact that we have other problems doesn't mean that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine aren't problems themselves. I already told you that I'm not one of the guys that says we absolutely need to draft or sign 4 outside players or else we're doomed; I think Boling, Andre (at RT only), and Redmond should be the starters until unseated. A good free agent center and a 2nd round LG/LT would make our line serviceable, at least on paper IMO. I trust Pollack to find a guy in the draft and the team should really look at Weston Richburg as he shouldn't be super expensive.

 

I guess I just don't understand what you're arguing here for the most part. It seems like you realize the line sucked from your posts in other threads yet you're arguing with me here with the attitude that it's not so bad and you go as far as to blame Joe Mixon (LOL WHAT??) for our early struggles on offense. I don't think either of us believes that we need to see 4 new players here to have a decent line, but you seem to be putting waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much blame on coaching and scheme and letting the players off the hook too easily (except Mixon I guess). It's not a bad thing to admit that we just have some mediocre or worse players on this football team, it's not always the fault of a coach. Some of our players just suck, it is what it is.

Some of us rationalize about aspects of the team such as the franchise OTs because we know we're stuck with them and all we have is optimism. Whenever I see somebody suggest that we cut our losses and fix everything pronto, I can't help but laugh. It's like how long have they followed this team. I think some of the fan's keep their draft and FA scenarios in the realm of possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Hooky said:

Some of us rationalize about aspects of the team such as the franchise OTs because we know we're stuck with them and all we have is optimism. Whenever I see somebody suggest that we cut our losses and fix everything pronto, I can't help but laugh. It's like how long have they followed this team. I think some of the fan's keep their draft and FA scenarios in the realm of possibility.

I'm not so sure anything I've said here is out of the realm of possibility though. Having 2 new starters on the line from where we left off in 2017 isn't too crazy and could certainly happen. When is the last time that we've had OL play as bad as when Ogbuehi, Bodine, Hopkins/Johnson, and Fisher were getting a lot of the snaps? We haven't really been in "oh shit we gotta fix this" mode with almost the entire OL until just recently.

 

2 years ago if I told you that Paul Alexander wouldn't be coaching here in 2018 you'd have told me how that was out of the realm of possibility too. I'm just sayin', crazier things have happened than us finding 2-3 new starters on the OL in a single offseason.

 

Some of us recognize when players perform poorly while others just blame it on the coaching staff so they feel better about those players being retained and in the projected lineup I guess. That's what it really seems like to me. Instead of admitting some of these guys are terrible at the NFL level we need to do mental gymnastics and just claim that Joe Mixon didn't know how to run properly in our scheme so that's why we suck. Meh, whatever. Our offense is the bottom of the NFL in every category that matters but it's all Joe Mixon's fault and I guess throw Paul Alexander's blocking schemes in there too. Nothing to do with Ogbuehi, Bodine, and Fisher being shit NFL linemen. I'll never understand some fans, they'll call certain players shit but have weird reservations with saying anything negative about other players. Or they'll call every coach we have shit but it's not the players' fault or vice versa. Anyone that wants to go into 2018 with Ogbuehi, Fisher, AND Bodine on the line probably doesn't want to see us win many games and I'll never take their player evaluation seriously going forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I'm not so sure anything I've said here is out of the realm of possibility though. Having 2 new starters on the line from where we left off in 2017 isn't too crazy and could certainly happen. When is the last time that we've had OL play as bad as when Ogbuehi, Bodine, Hopkins/Johnson, and Fisher were getting a lot of the snaps? We haven't really been in "oh shit we gotta fix this" mode with almost the entire OL until just recently.

 

2 years ago if I told you that Paul Alexander wouldn't be coaching here in 2018 you'd have told me how that was out of the realm of possibility too. I'm just sayin', crazier things have happened than us finding 2-3 new starters on the OL in a single offseason.

 

Some of us recognize when players perform poorly while others just blame it on the coaching staff so they feel better about those players being retained and in the projected lineup I guess. That's what it really seems like to me. Instead of admitting some of these guys are terrible at the NFL level we need to do mental gymnastics and just claim that Joe Mixon didn't know how to run properly in our scheme so that's why we suck. Meh, whatever. Our offense is the bottom of the NFL in every category that matters but it's all Joe Mixon's fault and I guess throw Paul Alexander's blocking schemes in there too. Nothing to do with Ogbuehi, Bodine, and Fisher being shit NFL linemen. I'll never understand some fans, they'll call certain players shit but have weird reservations with saying anything negative about other players. Or they'll call every coach we have shit but it's not the players' fault or vice versa. Anyone that wants to go into 2018 with Ogbuehi, Fisher, AND Bodine on the line probably doesn't want to see us win many games and I'll never take their player evaluation seriously going forward.

I don't think anybody wants that, but it doesn't matter what we want. At least half the board has been clamoring to cut Bodine since he started, but he's played almost every snap since he's been here. I'm afraid that speculating on Oogey B and Fisher's replacements is as futile as the hundred page thread about who our new coach will be. I hope I'm wrong or hope that the offense will work in spite of our useless bookends and blocking sled at center.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

I'm not so sure anything I've said here is out of the realm of possibility though. Having 2 new starters on the line from where we left off in 2017 isn't too crazy and could certainly happen. When is the last time that we've had OL play as bad as when Ogbuehi, Bodine, Hopkins/Johnson, and Fisher were getting a lot of the snaps? We haven't really been in "oh shit we gotta fix this" mode with almost the entire OL until just recently.

 

2 years ago if I told you that Paul Alexander wouldn't be coaching here in 2018 you'd have told me how that was out of the realm of possibility too. I'm just sayin', crazier things have happened than us finding 2-3 new starters on the OL in a single offseason.

 

Some of us recognize when players perform poorly while others just blame it on the coaching staff so they feel better about those players being retained and in the projected lineup I guess. That's what it really seems like to me. Instead of admitting some of these guys are terrible at the NFL level we need to do mental gymnastics and just claim that Joe Mixon didn't know how to run properly in our scheme so that's why we suck. Meh, whatever. Our offense is the bottom of the NFL in every category that matters but it's all Joe Mixon's fault and I guess throw Paul Alexander's blocking schemes in there too. Nothing to do with Ogbuehi, Bodine, and Fisher being shit NFL linemen. I'll never understand some fans, they'll call certain players shit but have weird reservations with saying anything negative about other players. Or they'll call every coach we have shit but it's not the players' fault or vice versa. Anyone that wants to go into 2018 with Ogbuehi, Fisher, AND Bodine on the line probably doesn't want to see us win many games and I'll never take their player evaluation seriously going forward.

Hey man, I really don't care if you don't agree with something, but don't twist words when they're right there for everybody to see. Your problem seems to be that I won't call Ogbuehi, Bodine and Fisher "Garbage NFL players" and blame everything on them.  

You act like I haven't offered a way to address the positions in the offseason, and seem to think I'm anointing them the starters right now. If you actually think Mixon was being the fall guy when he said his early struggles were because he wasn't used to running in a timing run game and was free lancing, and if you actually think the offensive coordinator being fired two games into the season because he drew up a playbook that couldn't score a single touchdown wasn't an issue, and if you actually think a longtime coach like Alexander and the team parted ways "mutually" because of anything other than a power struggle over how the running game was blocked, and if you actually think that it wasn't because of Lazor's changes that the running game finally started to take off and averaged over five yards a carry three times and more then four yards a carry twice in the last six games, well if you think all of that is true, then I guess maybe fixing the line is as easy as going out and plugging in three new starters. Or maybe it's a more complicated issue than that and you don't actually care to do any more research and just take the easy fix.

And while I'm at it I'll throw a few more stats out there that show why I think the right move is to take a DT at No. 12 and not a LT — 4.61 and 4.15. The first is how many yards per carry the defensive line gives up on runs that went up the middle. That's good for 28th in the NFL, UGLY. The second is how many yards the Bengals gain when running off left tackle, good for 15th. Not great but not terrible.

Something else to consider when evaluating needs, when an opponent needed 1-2 yards on 3rd or 4th down, they got it 70 percent of the time! YIKES!!! That's 25th in NFL ranking. When they Bengals ran up the middle they averaged 4.24 yards a carry (12th) and they were actually in the top 10 (8th) for fewest running plays that were stopped for negative yards or no gain. 

So sure, there's room for improvement, but the offensive line is not the team's biggest problem, the defensive interior is. Now I'd be much more on board with the team going out and spending 10-12 million a year to get a guy like Sheldon Richardson than I would with them spending the same amount on somebody like Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell or Ryan Jensen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, BlaketoPickensfor6 said:

And while I'm at it I'll throw a few more stats out there that show why I think the right move is to take a DT at No. 12 and not a LT — 4.61 and 4.15. The first is how many yards per carry the defensive line gives up on runs that went up the middle. That's good for 28th in the NFL, UGLY. The second is how many yards the Bengals gain when running off left tackle, good for 15th. Not great but not terrible.

Something else to consider when evaluating needs, when an opponent needed 1-2 yards on 3rd or 4th down, they got it 70 percent of the time! YIKES!!! That's 25th in NFL ranking. When they Bengals ran up the middle they averaged 4.24 yards a carry (12th) and they were actually in the top 10 (8th) for fewest running plays that were stopped for negative yards or no gain. 

So sure, there's room for improvement, but the offensive line is not the team's biggest problem, the defensive interior is. Now I'd be much more on board with the team going out and spending 10-12 million a year to get a guy like Sheldon Richardson than I would with them spending the same amount on somebody like Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell or Ryan Jensen. 

 

We're going to stick with the agree to disagree on the other stuff that I cut out. You blame the scheme and coaches, I'll continue to believe that we have some subpar players on the line that need replaced immediately. That's that for now. The fact of the matter is that our issues running the ball are a combination of both players and scheme, we just each shift the majority of the blame in a different direction.

 

I'd rather have a DT than LT at 12 too. I'd rather have a safety or linebacker there over an OT myself. That's mostly because there are a lot of talented tackles being projected in the 2nd-3rd round and I'm not so hyped about McGlinchey. I'm not one of the guys that thinks we need to go OL in every round between 1 and 4 or that if we don't take an OL pick at 12 it means the team isn't trying to win. I think we can address the line problems without drafting an offensive lineman at 12.

 

I think they should address the line in free agency and then take the defense picks in the draft instead of spending on a guy like Richardson. I'd rather spend the money on Ryan Jensen in free agency but only if that means we go defense (NT, LB, S) 12 overall and then hit defense again with one of our 3rd rounders. There's no way we pay a guy like Norwell so that's out of the question. I'm not even sure we pay Solder because there could be some teams that throw a huge amount of money at him and we don't pay top dollar for guys that aren't homegrown. If you want to look at it from a realistic standpoint, we aren't getting Jensen or Richardson, so all of that is moot if we want to go with what the Bengals FO will do and not what we want them to do.

 

Realistically, I'd like to sign Weston Richburg, sign yet another vet LB (that won't work out for us), re-sign Andre Smith to start full time at RT, draft Vita Vea at 12, draft OT/OG/C with 2 of the next 3 picks and then go defense with most of our remaining draft choices. I don't think that's asking too much and it addresses team needs without going crazy spending or drafting too much of the same position. This next part I'm going to touch on is not what we've been discussing, but more people need to realize that the goal is to have as many rookies as possible be good enough players to make your roster, which means the team isn't going to take 6 linemen if there aren't that many projected spots available to be carried on the roster at the position. There's a lot more that goes into choosing draft picks than simply which players are good and available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
We're going to stick with the agree to disagree on the other stuff that I cut out. You blame the scheme and coaches, I'll continue to believe that we have some subpar players on the line that need replaced immediately. That's that for now. The fact of the matter is that our issues running the ball are a combination of both players and scheme, we just each shift the majority of the blame in a different direction.
 
I'd rather have a DT than LT at 12 too. I'd rather have a safety or linebacker there over an OT myself. That's mostly because there are a lot of talented tackles being projected in the 2nd-3rd round and I'm not so hyped about McGlinchey. I'm not one of the guys that thinks we need to go OL in every round between 1 and 4 or that if we don't take an OL pick at 12 it means the team isn't trying to win. I think we can address the line problems without drafting an offensive lineman at 12.
 
I think they should address the line in free agency and then take the defense picks in the draft instead of spending on a guy like Richardson. I'd rather spend the money on Ryan Jensen in free agency but only if that means we go defense (NT, LB, S) 12 overall and then hit defense again with one of our 3rd rounders. There's no way we pay a guy like Norwell so that's out of the question. I'm not even sure we pay Solder because there could be some teams that throw a huge amount of money at him and we don't pay top dollar for guys that aren't homegrown. If you want to look at it from a realistic standpoint, we aren't getting Jensen or Richardson, so all of that is moot if we want to go with what the Bengals FO will do and not what we want them to do.
 
Realistically, I'd like to sign Weston Richburg, sign yet another vet LB (that won't work out for us), re-sign Andre Smith to start full time at RT, draft Vita Vea at 12, draft OT/OG/C with 2 of the next 3 picks and then go defense with most of our remaining draft choices. I don't think that's asking too much and it addresses team needs without going crazy spending or drafting too much of the same position. This next part I'm going to touch on is not what we've been discussing, but more people need to realize that the goal is to have as many rookies as possible be good enough players to make your roster, which means the team isn't going to take 6 linemen if there aren't that many projected spots available to be carried on the roster at the position. There's a lot more that goes into choosing draft picks than simply which players are good and available.
Richburg is a total Bengals sign. He missed a year with concussion but he's young and good with ties to the area. If they sign him I hope it's to a cheap deal and they hedge their bets. I really don't think the Bengals will go after anybody in that 10-12 million per year range but probably will sign a few guys in the 3-5 million range.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...