The Broo View: Bengals can learn from how Philadelphia Eagles turned things around

[oldschooler]

Super Bowl LII is Sunday. One of the usual suspects will participate. The other, to quote a former Bearcats head football coach, is a "progress in work."

 

The Patriots would be the former. They're in the grand finale for the eighth time in the last 18 years.  

 

The Eagles' last trip to a Super Bowl was in 2005. Comparing any NFL franchise to the Patriots is a fool's game. But the Eagles are another story. 

 

If you compare where the Bengals are right now to the Patriots, after the laughter subsides, the discussion is a quick one: Not even in the same conversation.

 

The Eagles? Let's look. A year ago, they were 7-9. Two years ago, the Eagles were also 7-9. Over the last two years, the Bengals were only a half-game worse. So how did the Eagles turn it around?

 

(Click the link for the entire article)

 

https://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/the-broo-view-bengals-can-learn-from-how-philadelphia-eagles-turned-things-around

[|SF2|]

It's a very good read but as the article points out, the Bengals are highly unlikely to be active in FA or make mid season trades like the Eagles did.  

 

The blueprint is there but we would never go this route.

[Hooky]

1 hour ago, SF2 said:

It's a very good read but as the article points out, the Bengals are highly unlikely to be active in FA or make mid season trades like the Eagles did.  

 

The blueprint is there but we would never go this route.

Respectfully, I thought it was a flaming piece of poop myself. The painfully unfunny attempts at humor. The irrelevant fellating of the patriots that seems to be mandatory in any football article about any team. The owner ego theory made no sense what so ever. He listed 4 owners that haven't won anything in a while as prototypes. And mostly, he mentioned everything except the biggest disparity between the bengals and the iggles or any successful team, the coaching staff. In the fantasy football era, everybody focuses on the players, but the biggest thing holding the bengals back is the coaching. And Broo didn't even touch on it unless I missed it.

[Cat]

Broo is God awful. I won't even read the article, and Hooky summarized what I would have read nicely, without actually reading it.

[saphead]

I'm suprised that antiquated crotchety old goat took time away from his music research to write something. 

[|SF2|]

On 2/3/2018 at 9:54 AM, Hooky said:

Respectfully, I thought it was a flaming piece of poop myself. The painfully unfunny attempts at humor. The irrelevant fellating of the patriots that seems to be mandatory in any football article about any team. The owner ego theory made no sense what so ever. He listed 4 owners that haven't won anything in a while as prototypes. And mostly, he mentioned everything except the biggest disparity between the bengals and the iggles or any successful team, the coaching staff. In the fantasy football era, everybody focuses on the players, but the biggest thing holding the bengals back is the coaching. And Broo didn't even touch on it unless I missed it.

He make a quick reference to the Patriots and said it wasn't fair to compare anyone to them.    He NEVER EVER listed those 4 owners with big owners at prototypes.  What article were you reading?  He even mocked Jerry Jones for having a big ego and NO general manager with the results being what one should expect,..crap. 

 

Pointing the coaching staff has some merit but Broo showing step by step how the Eagles made multiple moves to get BETTER PLAYERS can not be disputed.  Their team is better because they made ACTUAL moves, not simply  pick BPA on draft day and pick up some backup players in the 2nd week of FA.  The trade deadline is a meaningless day to the Bengals front office, right up there national broccoli day (April 20th).

[Hooky]

Keep spinning away, but I'm not Fred. I'm not going to argue. Ken Broo sucks and there's no need to argue about that.

[TheBeaverHunter]

It's like the man is speaking directly to the Bengals organization....

 

Quote

Doug Pederson: Coaching conservatively is a good way to go 8-8

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 5, 2018, 6:31 AM EST

Getty Images

Eagles coach Doug Pederson was the most aggressive coach on fourth downs all season, and that didn’t change in the Super Bowl. Pederson says there’s a simple reason for that: It’s the way to win.

Pederson told Peter King after the game that if you want to play it safe all the time, that’s a great way to be at or near .500 all the time. If you want to win a championship, you need to try some high-risk, high-reward plays.

“You learn if you play passive, if you play conservative, if you call plays conservatively, you are going to be 8-8, 9-7 every year,” Pederson said. “Every year. Frank and I just having that collaborative spirit to talk about things and talk with our quarterbacks and just come up with ways of keeping this game fresh and fun and exciting for our players. And that’s really where it all stems from.”

Pederson was aggressive, and he won the Super Bowl. Other coaches should take note.

 

[omgdrdoom]

16 hours ago, SF2 said:

He make a quick reference to the Patriots and said it wasn't fair to compare anyone to them.    He NEVER EVER listed those 4 owners with big owners at prototypes.  What article were you reading?  He even mocked Jerry Jones for having a big ego and NO general manager with the results being what one should expect,..crap. 

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure you should be asking Hooky about which article he was reading as I'm wondering what YOU were reading.

 

Here is the exact quote from the article that we can all read in plain view:

 

"Mark Cuban, Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, the Buss family in Los Angeles are other examples of ego-driven business people. And in the socialist world of the NFL, where all revenue is divided equally, ego becomes the greatest motivation for winning. The aforementioned have it. Mike Brown may be the least egocentric person you'll ever meet.

Virtually every professional sports franchise has a general manager. The Cowboys don't. Neither do the Bengals. But, see the ego thing.

Chasing a championship takes talent. It takes brains, money and will. It takes the ego of an owner. The talent thing has never changed. The ego thing would be nice. But the money and the will aspects are new millennium musts. It also takes the realization that winning, in this day and age, requires a different paradigm than it did 30 years ago. If the Bengals can go to school on that, and what the Eagles have pulled off in the last 24 months, maybe the 2018 NFL season will be better than what it looks like right now. Maybe."

 

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I think that reads very clear and I even put some parts in bold to make it even easier. Broo clearly stated those 4 as good examples of guys trying to build a winning team whether he intended to do so or not. English only works in certain ways when you put words next to each other so let's not try to manipulate his words to mean what we want them to but rather how he wrote them. He literally pointed to 4 specific owners and the 2 football related ones haven't won shit.

[Hooky]

1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure you should be asking Hooky about which article he was reading as I'm wondering what YOU were reading.

 

Here is the exact quote from the article that we can all read in plain view:

 

"Mark Cuban, Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, the Buss family in Los Angeles are other examples of ego-driven business people. And in the socialist world of the NFL, where all revenue is divided equally, ego becomes the greatest motivation for winning. The aforementioned have it. Mike Brown may be the least egocentric person you'll ever meet.

Virtually every professional sports franchise has a general manager. The Cowboys don't. Neither do the Bengals. But, see the ego thing.

Chasing a championship takes talent. It takes brains, money and will. It takes the ego of an owner. The talent thing has never changed. The ego thing would be nice. But the money and the will aspects are new millennium musts. It also takes the realization that winning, in this day and age, requires a different paradigm than it did 30 years ago. If the Bengals can go to school on that, and what the Eagles have pulled off in the last 24 months, maybe the 2018 NFL season will be better than what it looks like right now. Maybe."

 

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I think that reads very clear and I even put some parts in bold to make it even easier. Broo clearly stated those 4 as good examples of guys trying to build a winning team whether he intended to do so or not. English only works in certain ways when you put words next to each other so let's not try to manipulate his words to mean what we want them to but rather how he wrote them. He literally pointed to 4 specific owners and the 2 football related ones haven't won shit.

Thanks, Doom. And as an after thought, Mike Brown is egocentric. His ego that makes him think of himself as a football mind is what has killed this team. Ego makes one stubborn on decision making. Not necessarily aggressive. Broo's talking about the other owners' aggressive behavior being based on their ego. Mikey has a more shrewd approach. Their differences have noting to do with ego since probably all owners are egocentric, but with a different approach.

 

I think what Broo was trying to say is that the other owners are proud and driven to win while Mikey just doesn't care. Which I've heard a thousand times and don't believe to be true.

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure you should be asking Hooky about which article he was reading as I'm wondering what YOU were reading.

 

Here is the exact quote from the article that we can all read in plain view:

 

"Mark Cuban, Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, the Buss family in Los Angeles are other examples of ego-driven business people. And in the socialist world of the NFL, where all revenue is divided equally, ego becomes the greatest motivation for winning. The aforementioned have it. Mike Brown may be the least egocentric person you'll ever meet.

Virtually every professional sports franchise has a general manager. The Cowboys don't. Neither do the Bengals. But, see the ego thing.

Chasing a championship takes talent. It takes brains, money and will. It takes the ego of an owner. The talent thing has never changed. The ego thing would be nice. But the money and the will aspects are new millennium musts. It also takes the realization that winning, in this day and age, requires a different paradigm than it did 30 years ago. If the Bengals can go to school on that, and what the Eagles have pulled off in the last 24 months, maybe the 2018 NFL season will be better than what it looks like right now. Maybe."

 

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I think that reads very clear and I even put some parts in bold to make it even easier. Broo clearly stated those 4 as good examples of guys trying to build a winning team whether he intended to do so or not. English only works in certain ways when you put words next to each other so let's not try to manipulate his words to mean what we want them to but rather how he wrote them. He literally pointed to 4 specific owners and the 2 football related ones haven't won shit.

The bold is the only thing you should have taken away from this piece.   Obviously you need talent. 

 

It also takes brains i.e. NFL salary cap brains, NFL player evaluation brains, NFL coach evaluation brains.    Our front office is sorely lacking in this department particularly the player evaluation brains dept based on the most recent drafts.

 

Money is also important.  If you are not willing to lose a little money one year to sign a few difference making FAs that might get you over the top then you probably won't be competitive.  The Bengals don't spend money  in FA on needed upper tier talent.

 

Will is another aspect.  Have to be willing to make some bold moves to succeed.  The Eagles traded away a 4th round pick for Jay Ajayi at the trade deadline.  The Bengals never do things like that.  The almost McCarron trade wasn't going to make our team better anytime soon, it was simply an attempt to get a few future picks.  Ajayi averaged 5.8 yards per carry  in the  7 games he played and 4.4 during the playoffs.  More importantly, he allowed LeGarrette Blount to enter the post season far more rested than he would have been.  Have to be willing to make player and coaching changes as well.  The Bengals would rather a contract end instead of making big changes.  We can't even replace a coach who hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years,..no will. 

 

Almost every owner has an ego.  Guys don't typically become worth 9 or 10 figures without egos.   The fact that Mike Brown refused to hire a TRUE GM for so long is all you need to know about his enormous ego when it comes to running the Bengals.  Its the same ego that has had the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins spinning their wheels for so long.  The only difference is Snyder and Jones are also narcissists while Mike Brown isn't. 

 

Watching last nights Super Bowl I do have one question,..does anyone think the Eagles even make it to the Superbowl with Marvin and his staff at the helm?  Didn't think so.

 

 

[omgdrdoom]

^ Yeah I didn't really disagree or argue any of the other stuff other than what I touched on in Broo's writing. He either wrote his article like shit or else he has shit opinions, possibly both. I don't know much about him to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I'm not a fan of this article or how it's constructed. I get the point of it and I actually agree with some of it, but an overall "meh" on the article overall.

 

As far as Mike Brown goes, he wants to win as much as anyone else, he just really doesn't understand the modern way of getting there. Everything you said above is definitely true. We need better draft evaluation, we need better free agents, we need more trades that help us now instead of 2 years from now. I'm with ya on all of that.

[Hooky]

7 minutes ago, SF2 said:

The bold is the only thing you should have taken away from this piece.   Obviously you need talent. 

 

It also takes brains i.e. NFL salary cap brains, NFL player evaluation brains, NFL coach evaluation brains.    Our front office is sorely lacking in this department particularly the player evaluation brains dept based on the most recent drafts.

 

Money is also important.  If you are not willing to lose a little money one year to sign a few difference making FAs that might get you over the top then you probably won't be competitive.  The Bengals don't spend money  in FA on needed upper tier talent.

 

Will is another aspect.  Have to be willing to make some bold moves to succeed.  The Eagles traded away a 4th round pick for Jay Ajayi at the trade deadline.  The Bengals never do things like that.  The almost McCarron trade wasn't going to make our team better anytime soon, it was simply an attempt to get a few future picks.  Ajayi averaged 5.8 yards per carry  in the  7 games he played and 4.4 during the playoffs.  More importantly, he allowed LeGarrette Blount to enter the post season far more rested than he would have been.

 

Almost every owner has an ego.  Guys don't typically become worth 9 or 10 figures without egos.   The fact that Mike Brown refused to hire a TRUE GM for so long is all you need to know about his enormous ego when it comes to running the Bengals.  Its the same ego that has had the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins spinning their wheels for so long.  The only difference is Snyder and Jones are also narcissists while Mike Brown isn't.  

 

 

But it's the coaches that make the players go, not the other way around. Which was the gist of my original comment, but you didn't remark on that. The main difference is the coaching. Do you think that if the bengals made the exact same moves on players that the eagles did, that they would have the same success given our coaching staff? Of course not. 

[|SF2|]

13 minutes ago, Hooky said:

But it's the coaches that make the players go, not the other way around. Which was the gist of my original comment, but you didn't remark on that. The main difference is the coaching. Do you think that if the bengals made the exact same moves on players that the eagles did, that they would have the same success given our coaching staff? Of course not. 

I agree coaching is alot of it but without the right personnel even Bellichek can't win.  Again, the front office is the one that is in charge of hiring and firing coaches.  I think the Zimmer and Gruden combo with the rosters we had gave us our best chance do something.  Even in 2015 we had a shot because of the talent we had but lack of discipline ended our chances.   

 

We have now entered a phase where we don't have enough above average talent to bail out our below average coaching staff.  The results are predictable.   Snyder and Jones would have blown it up a long time ago due to their narcissistic character.  Mike Brown is still trying to prove the decisions he has made were the correct ones because of his ego.   I don't know which one is worse.  

 

At the end of the day, what the Eagles accomplished and the way they did it will not be duplicated here.   Our front office isn't capable of such bold moves. 

[Hooky]

58 minutes ago, SF2 said:

I agree coaching is alot of it but without the right personnel even Bellichek can't win.  Again, the front office is the one that is in charge of hiring and firing coaches.  I think the Zimmer and Gruden combo with the rosters we had gave us our best chance do something.  Even in 2015 we had a shot because of the talent we had but lack of discipline ended our chances.   

 

We have now entered a phase where we don't have enough above average talent to bail out our below average coaching staff.  The results are predictable.   Snyder and Jones would have blown it up a long time ago due to their narcissistic character.  Mike Brown is still trying to prove the decisions he has made were the correct ones because of his ego.   I don't know which one is worse.  

 

At the end of the day, what the Eagles accomplished and the way they did it will not be duplicated here.   Our front office isn't capable of such bold moves. 

I am well aware that the front office is in charge of hiring coaches. I am not defending Mike Brown, I was just criticizing Broo's article that he didn't mention the coaches as a difference. And I never argued that his points about player personnel were wrong. I was criticizing his overall style of writing, his poor attempt at humor, his omission of the coaching staff difference and his idiotic owner ego statement as a reason that he is not aggressive in FA. You got really defensive, even though the only points that you highlighted, the ones about player personnel, were the only points that I didn't have disagreement with. I think an Eaglesque off-season would be great for the Bengals if I wasn't positive that Marvin would fuck it up again.

[|SF2|]

35 minutes ago, Hooky said:

I am well aware that the front office is in charge of hiring coaches. I am not defending Mike Brown, I was just criticizing Broo's article that he didn't mention the coaches as a difference. And I never argued that his points about player personnel were wrong. I was criticizing his overall style of writing, his poor attempt at humor, his omission of the coaching staff difference and his idiotic owner ego statement as a reason that he is not aggressive in FA. You got really defensive, even though the only points that you highlighted, the ones about player personnel, were the only points that I didn't have disagreement with. I think an Eaglesque off-season would be great for the Bengals if I wasn't positive that Marvin would fuck it up again.

I agree with you about coaching. I WANTED MARVIN FIRED after the San Diego playoff game. I have criticized him constantly.   He has under performed with talented rosters for 15 years.  The guy has never even managed to earn a bye because of inexcusable losses during the regular season.   Its not just a playoff thing. 

 

I like the article because is gave us good look at what moves the Eagles have done in the past two years to become the Super Bowls champs.   It demonstrated what it takes to build a good team.  I also makes one realize this organization would never do this.  In my mind it doesn't matter who our coaches are because as long as Mike Brown and family are running the show they won't go the extra mile to win the big game nor spend any money or time finding a great head coach and assistants. 

 

You responded to me and  called it flaming piece of poop.  Its seems you  completely ignored the first page of the article and fixated on the ego nonsense which was really a small part of the overall piece and I agree, it was meaningless.    if you don't like his writing style, fine.   

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

^ Yeah I didn't really disagree or argue any of the other stuff other than what I touched on in Broo's writing. He either wrote his article like shit or else he has shit opinions, possibly both. I don't know much about him to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I'm not a fan of this article or how it's constructed. I get the point of it and I actually agree with some of it, but an overall "meh" on the article overall.

 

As far as Mike Brown goes, he wants to win as much as anyone else, he just really doesn't understand the modern way of getting there. Everything you said above is definitely true. We need better draft evaluation, we need better free agents, we need more trades that help us now instead of 2 years from now. I'm with ya on all of that.

 

I think he wants to win, maybe even very badly, but it's more important that they do it his way.  He sees the franchise as an embodiment of he & his father's values, so winning is about proving himself right & vindication of his ideals.  If the choice is between winning and redeeming, he chooses redeeming every time.  Winning for the sake of winning isn't good enough.

[Hooky]

2 hours ago, SF2 said:

I agree coaching is alot of it but without the right personnel even Bellichek can't win.  Again, the front office is the one that is in charge of hiring and firing coaches.  I think the Zimmer and Gruden combo with the rosters we had gave us our best chance do something.  Even in 2015 we had a shot because of the talent we had but lack of discipline ended our chances.   

 

We have now entered a phase where we don't have enough above average talent to bail out our below average coaching staff.  The results are predictable.   Snyder and Jones would have blown it up a long time ago due to their narcissistic character.  Mike Brown is still trying to prove the decisions he has made were the correct ones because of his ego.   I don't know which one is worse.  

 

At the end of the day, what the Eagles accomplished and the way they did it will not be duplicated here.   Our front office isn't capable of such bold moves. 

So the whole article is moot any way. Just another futile push to get MB more aggressive. Pointless. Unoriginal. Not much of a revelation. Which I guess is what really bugged me about it.

[T-Dub]

19 minutes ago, Hooky said:

So the whole article is moot any way. Just another futile push to get MB more aggressive. Pointless. Unoriginal. Not much of a revelation. Which I guess is what really bugged me about it.

 

It's the typical sports media "poke the suffering fanbase with a stick" article.  A little salt in the wound to get the rabble clicking on his page.

[|SF2|]

20 minutes ago, Hooky said:

So the whole article is moot any way. Just another futile push to get MB more aggressive. Pointless. Unoriginal. Not much of a revelation. Which I guess is what really bugged me about it.

I don't think anything would make an 82 year old whose father was Paul Brown and who has run an NFL franchise for 27 years change his ways.   Yeah, Broo  was trying to shame the Bengals into making changes but we both know that will fall on deaf ears.  I liked the Eagles analysis but your are right, just a moot point.   I honestly don't think Katie Blackburn will be any better.  What is her background,.helping run the Cincinnati Bengals for two decades?    Did she ever have a job in a different, successful, organization?

[T-Dub]

4 minutes ago, SF2 said:

I don't think anything would make an 82 year old whose father was Paul Brown and who has run an NFL franchise for 27 years change his ways.   Yeah, Broo  was trying to shame the Bengals into making changes but we both know that will fall on deaf ears.  I liked the Eagles analysis but your are right, just a moot point.   I honestly don't think Katie Blackburn will be any better.  What is her background,.helping run the Cincinnati Bengals for two decades?    Did she ever have a job in a different, successful, organization?

 

She played hardball during the Andre Smith negotiation, I thought she seemed capable in that department at least & hopefully was indicative of a more pragmatic approach in general.

 

 Otherwise, yeah, total unknown.  

[Hooky]

Just now, T-Dub said:

 

She played hardball during the Andre Smith negotiation, I thought she seemed capable in that department at least & hopefully was indicative of a more pragmatic approach in general.

 

 Otherwise, yeah, total unknown.  

Here's hoping that she realizes that she is in way over her head when she takes over and just hires a GM and signs the checks.

[T-Dub]

32 minutes ago, Hooky said:

Here's hoping that she realizes that she is in way over her head when she takes over and just hires a GM and signs the checks.

 

Or she's football's Billy Beane?  Being a total unknown includes the possibility of her being great at it, she's surely had enough time to learn and maybe more importantly, I bet she has some strong ideas about what her old man has wrong. 

 

Still looking for a photo of either of them watching a game from the owner's box. That's where the owner goes, I agree with you there but this franchise is a family business for better or for absolute worst.  You never see them on game day though & that kinda bugs me. I'd swear the Browns must have some kind of media rule about it.  

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Or she's football's Billy Beane?  Being a total unknown includes the possibility of her being great at it, she's surely had enough time to learn and maybe more importantly, I bet she has some strong ideas about what her old man has wrong. 

 

Still looking for a photo of either of them watching a game from the owner's box. That's where the owner goes, I agree with you there but this franchise is a family business for better or for worst.  You never see them on game day though & that kinda bugs me. I'd swear the Browns must have some kind of media rule about it.  

Well, Mike wasn't exactly thrown bouquets of flowers around the 1998 to 2002 time frame.  Banners hung from overpasses, planes overhead before 9/11, Furman? stuck on a billboard for 9 weeks,  I am sure Brown took some verbal abuse and decided to lay low on game days.

[T-Dub]

11 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Well, Mike wasn't exactly throw bouquets of flowers around the 1998 to 2002 time frame.  Banners hung from overpasses, planes overhead before 9/11, Furman? stuck on a billboard for 9 weeks,  I am sure Brown took some verbal abuse and decided to lay low on game days.

 

I guess being booed any time the camera went to you would suck.  

 

I got booed at a Reds game once because I didn't want to risk falling from the 2nd deck chasing a pop foul.  It was Cueto's first Reds game & he had a no-hitter into IIRC the 5th or 6th so I do wish I had that ball now.  Bones heal, right?