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UPDATE: Dave Lapham predicts Bengals draft Frank Ragnow


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1 hour ago, Jason said:

A few things to the last few posts.

 

Price is a very good player, but he isn't quite as good as Ragnow or as athletic as Daniels.  I have him behind those 2.  Yes, he's strong, smart, and a great leader, but he also has very short arms.  

 

 

So he's everything you want in a Center. And everything we haven't had in a Center in decades, but he has short arms? 

Price's arms are an inch shorter than Ragnow's.

 

Look I know we all get caught up in the numbers and suff of this silly season.

And I would be thrilled to get any of the 3 with our 1st pick. But I never heard anything

but Price was the best Center available until he got hurt at the Combine. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Billy Price started 55 games (a school record) at Ohio State. And was a 1st Team All American at Center (2 time All American).

2 time team captain. And the 2017 Rimington award winner. 

 

I watched and recorded and rewatched every Buckeyes game this past season.

Dude was a team leader and played great. But most of what I have seen about him has been pretty negative.

 

Other than getting hurt at the Combine (which has been described as "very minor"), can anyone tell me why he would be a bad pick?

 

I'll hang up and listen...

 

Toot Sweet, is that you?

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By the way, I just found something interesting.

 

Rich Braham's arms were an inch shorter than Billy Price's. 

He seemed to do well.

 

Dave Lapham seems to like Price a lot. 

Also....

 

What draft experts are saying:

ESPN’s Todd McShay picked Price for the Vikings in his latest mock draft.

McShay wrote:

“One way or another, Minnesota will solve its starting QB situation through free agency. With that in place, there aren’t a lot of holes on this roster. Minnesota had great success with 2017 third-round pickPat Elflein, so they go back to the Buckeyes well here. Price tore his pec at the combine and underwent surgery, but he should be fine for training camp. He’s an experienced starter with great character, and could be an immediate upgrade.”

Price’s NFL.com profile:

“Plays like a Wildling at times with tremendous explosiveness, strength and, almost excessive initial charge. Price’s power and leverage give him a huge advantage over most centers in this draft. He should be able to come into the league and deal with NFL power right away. However, his impatience as a blocker and tendency to charge in head-first will be used against him by savvy NFL opponents if he doesn’t get it cleaned up. Price is an early starter with Pro Bowl potential.”

Pro Football Focus said:

“Price is the rare four-year starter at a major college program and that itself is enough to get evaluators attention. He’s far from a perfect prospect, though, as he’s had inconsistencies on tape still this past season that you’d have hoped would be cleaned up by now. He alternates ugly blocks with dominant ones that NFL coaches will think they can harness every snap.”

What the numbers say:

Pass blocking snaps: 434

Results: Two sacks, one QB hit, 10 hurries

Here are Price’s Pro Football Focus grades in each area:

 

Screen-Shot-2018-03-25-at-4.07.43-PM.png

 

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23 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

John Ross was a projected 1st round pick who was compared to DeSean Jackson, not Bennie Brazell.

So yeah, it is way too early to call Ross a whiff. 

 

 

You can compare him to a barn owl for what that's worth, it doesn't mean he can fly or eats mice.

 

How 'bout this: you set the bar as to his stats this year.  What mark would he have to hit in his 2nd year to be worth a top-10 draft pick in your opinion? Minimum of yards/TD's, then we can refer back to it later.  

 

For reference, DeSean Jackson had 900 yards as a rookie.  He was also a 2nd round pick.

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Just now, T-Dub said:

 

You can compare him to a barn owl for what that's worth, it doesn't mean he can fly or eats mice.

 

How 'bout this: you set the bar as to his stats this year.  What mark would he have to hit in his 2nd year to be worth a top-10 draft pick in your opinion? Minimum of yards/TD's, then we can refer back to it later.  

 

For reference, DeSean Jackson had 900 yards as a rookie.  He was also a 2nd round pick.

 

 

DeSean Jackson didn't have AJ Green on his team.

I just think he'll show his worth enough to shut up his doubters. How's that?

 

They weren't comparing him to a 2nd round pick. They were comparing him to a homerun hitting game changer.

 

Look I know it's much easier to be pessimistic. If you're wrong, it's good for your team. If you're right, well you get to say I told you so.

So, you can't lose either way, right? But with all the changes and Ross learning his rookie season, I'm optimistic. And regardless, either way

right now it is too early to call Ross a whiff. Just like it would have been to early to say the same thing about William Jackson at this time last year.

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11 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

DeSean Jackson didn't have AJ Green on his team.

I just think he'll show his worth enough to shut up his doubters. How's that?

 

They weren't comparing him to a 2nd round pick. They were comparing him to a homerun hitting game changer.

 

Look I know it's much easier to be pessimistic. If you're wrong, it's good for your team. If you're right, well you get to say I told you so.

So, you can't lose either way, right? But with all the changes and Ross learning his rookie season, I'm optimistic. And regardless, either way

right now it is too early to call Ross a whiff. Just like it would have been to early to say the same thing about William Jackson at this time last year.

 

I notice a distinct lack of projected yardage or scoring in this post.  Would you go 600/5 TD's?   That seems more than reasonable for the 2nd season of a 9th overall draft pick. 

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8 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Meh, or you get #6 choice at a group of 30 guys at different positions. You can choose the guy with the best attitude, work ethic...

Put it this way... You walk into a bar and there's 50 women there. There are 15 super hot chicks in there, but there's also 20 super hot dudes who are rich. Now, the other 35 girls are all solid 6's, but none of them are going to be on the cover of Vogue. You get to take each out on a date and get to know them.

Now, do you really think there's no difference between the girl that gets picked #21 vs. #50? Which one are you going to want to marry? Would you just stand back and let everyone else decide who they liked best and take whomever is left over? Because you're getting the crazy cat chick with daddy issues.

So, while these guys may be similar on tape, Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning were once considered to be "similar" players. Does it make sense to say that the Colts should have traded back to #2 and picked up an extra second rounder? After all, if they're so similar, just wait and get more "value". 

The Bengals are in a great spot. There shouldn't be any standout BPA at #21, so they get one of the top picks of the second tier guys. They get to fill a position of need without having the agony of passing on a potentially game changing talent. 

I get what you're saying and it's why I would be perfectly fine with Price (or one of the other Centers) at #21.

 

I was just explaining why I think there are a lot of Bengals fans who act really pissed/depressed about talk of Price in the 1st round. To use your hypothetical, I think a lot of Bengals fans are the guy who walks into the bar expecting to land at least an 8 and is just disappointed that there are only 6s left. Sure there is value in picking which 6 you want (and it's obviously an over-simplification to say they are exactly the same grade), but in a general sense, this is what I think is happening. People are coming to grips with the realization that the trade from 12 to 21 probably took us out of the range where there's a solid chance of landing a star and more into the range where you're just happy to land an above average starter.  

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42 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I notice a distinct lack of projected yardage or scoring in this post.  Would you go 600/5 TD's?   That seems more than reasonable for the 2nd season of a 9th overall draft pick. 

 

 

Sure why not? 

I noticed all you want to do is keep carrying your narrative though.

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Regarding the centers, I've watched some tape on each of them and this is what I come away with:

 

Price:  Easily the nastiest, good at getting to the second level from what I saw, usually technically sound.  Stout when locked on.

Daniels:  Athletic, seems smart, determined.  Seems weak as he ended up on his ass more than once, and would "slide" off blocks when trying to set an edge/turn a guy.  Did his best work on double teams, which is a bit worrying.

Ragnow:  The "stoutest" in my opinion, very technical/methodical and and just erased people when locked on.  Worked hard to get to the next level.  Seems to stand far too "upright" for NFL-caliber play, but that is of course a teachable thing.


To summarize, the eyeball test tells me Price or Ragnow are a better bet than Daniels, but I'd be happy going forward with any of them for one simple reason - I trust Pollack to grade the right guy.

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27 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

Sure why not? 

I noticed all you want to do is keep carrying your narrative though.

 

The "narrative" that a top-10 draft pick should be able to produce more than a 12-yard run ending in a fumble?

 

That is his actual stat line from his entire rookie season. It's his narrative, not mine.

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1 minute ago, Bunghole said:

Why do we seem so good at finding "gold" in the later rounds and are so awful with our first round picks (in general, not always). Is it the higher level of expectations? What?

Probably bc Mike's biggest input is only the first 2 rounds.:lol:

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53 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

The "narrative" that a top-10 draft pick should be able to produce more than a 12-yard run ending in a fumble?

 

That is his actual stat line from his entire rookie season. It's his narrative, not mine.

 

 

If you think I am trying to defend his rookie season, I'm not.

Your narrative is he is a whiff. A huge swing and a miss. You're not just talking about last season.

You're talking about his entire career. 

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This is why I laugh at the terms “reach”, “climbing draft boards”, and “drafting for need” instead of BPA.

 

We have a glaring need at C, OT, LB, and S. O line is obviously the most glaring need, so to hell with “BPA”, fix your holes.

 

If it’s broke, fix it with the best player available to fix it, then move on to luxury picks later.

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3 hours ago, oldschooler said:

 

 

So he's everything you want in a Center. And everything we haven't had in a Center in decades, but he has short arms? 

Price's arms are an inch shorter than Ragnow's.

 

Look I know we all get caught up in the numbers and suff of this silly season.

And I would be thrilled to get any of the 3 with our 1st pick. But I never heard anything

but Price was the best Center available until he got hurt at the Combine. 

 

 

Like I said, I'd be happy with Price, and he'd be a huge upgrade over anything we have had in a long time.  I just think Ragnow and Daniels are a little bit better.  

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20 minutes ago, Jason said:

Like I said, I'd be happy with Price, and he'd be a huge upgrade over anything we have had in a long time.  I just think Ragnow and Daniels are a little bit better.  

 

 

Ragnow I could maybe agree on. Daniels is just more athletic is all. 

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I'm opposed to a C at 21. There will be better players available. Evans or Vander Esch are likely to be there. Maybe McGlinchey, likely Miller. Take one of them and wait for the C. 

 

I agree it's important to get a good C in this draft who can start from day 1. But it's unlikely any of the top 3 centers will be off the board at 21. Maybe 1 goes in the first round. We could trade our 3rd round comp pick to move up from 46 if needed, probably about 8-10 spots. That should guarantee we get a shot at one of the top 3 centers and we can wait until 2 are gone. 

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15 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

 

I agree it's important to get a good C in this draft who can start from day 1. 

 

Expecting a rookie center to play at a high level from day 1 isn't very realistic, no matter where they are drafted.  Combine that with a new offense & new blocking scheme for the vets, and a new defense besides..  I just hope they can manage to stay around .500 for those first few games & not get in too deep of a hole before things start to click. 

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On 4/21/2018 at 7:45 AM, oldschooler said:

 

 

John Ross was a projected 1st round pick who was compared to DeSean Jackson, not Bennie Brazell.

So yeah, it is way too early to call Ross a whiff. 

 

Jackson went in the 2nd round at pick 49. Ross was projected to be a later 1st round pick by most, not a top 10.   In my opinion if you pick a WR in the top 10 he has to be a can't miss guy like AJ  Green. Really, any top 10 needs to be a can't miss IMHO.

 

That said if he has a 2nd season like Jackson's 2nd, I will pop wood.

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3 hours ago, SF2 said:

Jackson went in the 2nd round at pick 49. Ross was projected to be a later 1st round pick by most, not a top 10.   In my opinion if you pick a WR in the top 10 he has to be a can't miss guy like AJ  Green. Really, any top 10 needs to be a can't miss IMHO.

 

That said if he has a 2nd season like Jackson's 2nd, I will pop wood.

I get the hate for the Ross pick after how last season went, but he was the type of player that this team needed opposite Green. In college, he was a good WR at all three levels of the defense. 

 

The bengals fucked themselves with their drafts in 2014 and 2015. They missed on 3 offensive linemen in the first 4 rounds. That sets any team back, not from New England. Obviously they needed an offensive lineman last year, but how much draft capital can you use on one position in such a short amount of time? The idea of Ross wasn't flawed thinking. Letting Paul Alexander pick bums was the issue. 

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