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Hobson: Competition opens on O-line


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Competition opens on O-line

Posted 3 hours ago

hobson60x60.jpgGeoff HobsonEditorBengals.comFollow Me Blog

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The trade for Cordy Glenn (77), the selection of center Billy Price and the hiring of O-line fixer Frank Pollack set the off-season tone for the Bengals up front.

The Bengals get on the field for the first time Monday for walk-through and drills and that means the offensive line is going to get another jolt of the change in culture new offensive line coach Frank Pollack is introducing to the position.


In this offseason geared to revive the NFL’s worst offense the effort has started up front. Pollack’s efforts have been just as fundamental   His practices are said to be busy and exacting. Ever since he arrived from Dallas his players have heard all about the gadgets he likes to deploy during the workouts in a change of focus with what some would say heightens the intensity.
 
That’s not the only thing that’s going to be different. With the Bengals adding just one offensive lineman after taking Ohio State center Billy Price in the first round in the trade that brought them left tackle Cordy Glenn, offensive coordinator Bill Lazor basically opened up the offensive line jobs to competition by calling the line jockeying for jobs, well, a competition.
 
He wouldn’t say who his starter is at right tackle, incumbent Jake Fisher or newcomer Bobby Hart.  But competition is winning out so far. He counts five guards on his roster that started games last year (Clint Boling, Trey Hopkins, T.J. Johnson, Alex Redmond, Christian Westerman) and he's adamant that he expects good play from some of them this year.

“When you change the position coach it’s going to happen anyway,” said Lazor Saturday, moments after the draft ended. “When you trade for a veteran tackle and draft a player in the first round, you expect certain things to play out.  We’ll just try to play it out for the other spots and see what happens. It will be the right thing.”

The Bengals thought they did the right thing when they took Price 21 picks from the top and didn’t take another offensive lineman until five picks from the bottom in guard-tackle Rod Taylor of Ole Miss.

The Bengals made their statements about how they felt about the tackles and guards when they traded up from No. 100 to No. 78 and ended up with Texas linebacker Malik Jackson instead of five tackles that went from picks 80-92, including Orlando Brown Jr. (83 to the Ravens) and Chukwuma Okorafor (92 to the Stealers) staying in the division.

Plus,   exactly 0.0 guards were drafted from 79-137.
 

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It sounds like Bobby Hart, wearing 68 with the  Giants, is in the mix at right tacle 

But the way the Bengals have approached it, the three crucial acquisitions they needed to re-build the line were complete by No. 21 on Thursday night: the hiring of Pollack, the trade for Glenn, the selection of Price. The last six rounds were also a reflection of a segment of thinking that that Bengals’ problems up front can be attacked by changes in scheme and culture as much as players.

“We couldn’t create one,” Lewis said of drafting another lineman. “I don’t think we’re going to come in here  unless you had two or three first-round picks — and fix an offensive line for an NFL season, anyway. Obviously when you say things like that, people feel that’s unrealistic, unless you have three first-round picks to pick three first-round linemen. You’re not going to pick guys that are going to come in here and go, ‘Oh, those guys are better than anybody you’ve got.’ It’s up to the guys in the building, and it’s up to what we do schematically. It’s just not a one-person thing.

"We had a really good coach here in (former offensive line coach Paul Alexander); we’ve got another really good coach (Pollack), and we’re
excited about that. It’s us, it’s the players, it’s our coaching, it’s what we do — that all fixes what we need to get done and be better.”

Pollack and assistant Robert Couch did their due diligence. They traveled to private workouts and were in touch with the scouts.

“We had (the offensive linemen rated) at different levels. We watched them as a staff,” Lazor said. “If your guy kind of doesn’t line up where you’re picking, you understand why he takes another position. “
 
Lazor reminds you that players come from everywhere. Alex Redmond is undrafted. So is Kent Perkins. Perkins has fans in the building, particularly after he played right tackle for most of the final game’s first drive in Baltimore that the Bengals punched in.
 
Taylor came close to being undrafted, but there were reasons he didn’t. Maybe 34 3/8s, his arm length, Lazor and the scouts are intrigued with Taylor. He started 23 games in the SEC. Four at right guard. Seven at left tackle. Twelve at right tackle. There are some that think next to the supersonic center from Iowa, James Daniels, taken 39 by Chicago, Taylor has the best mobility of the interior players.
 
“I have hope for Rod,” Lazor said. “I know he’s a seventh-rounder, but this guy has played a lot of football in the SEC as a starting tackle. He’s got good length … and he can really move. I think it will be interesting.”
 
He’ll get his shot. It sounds like everyone on the field will.

“(Competition) is going to raise the level,” Lazor said. “Our job as coaches is to help the players set the standard for the way we’re supposed to run the ball; how we’re supposed to protect the passer.”
 
 
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A non shit stain at center alone makes the OL average. The team won 7 games last year and blew 4 other wins. That was all with an all time bad OL. Upgrades at LT and C is significant.  I also had big hopes for Westerman and Redmond and they didn't play them until the end of the year but they both did very well with that PT.

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47 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said:

Our tackles are likely Glenn, Hart, Fisher and Ogbuehi.  That's scary. 

There's a long way to go to get another Tackle. There was nothing reasonable that they could do in the draft to get an OT. If they didn't get Glenn, I would be scared right along with you. Not saying I'm not nervous, but I'll trust the new coaches to figure it out for now

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There’s an x-factor here nobody is considering, and I understand why, but having a full offseason with Lazor and our new oline coach could likely provide improvement in the form of shifting what we do to match the skills of our personnel and just better coaching at the position level. 

 

Again, I get why nobody is considering nor counting on it, but it isn’t impossible that we see improvement among our in-house guys.

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22 minutes ago, Hooky said:

There's a long way to go to get another Tackle. There was nothing reasonable that they could do in the draft to get an OT. If they didn't get Glenn, I would be scared right along with you. Not saying I'm not nervous, but I'll trust the new coaches to figure it out for now

Could have picked Brown at 77 or 78.  Instead he went to the Ravens where he will probably go to multiple pro bowls.   Not a fan by the way but Fisher and Ogbeuhi are garbage.  Might as well take a shot with a guy who looks great on tape. 

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49 minutes ago, Hooky said:

There's a long way to go to get another Tackle. There was nothing reasonable that they could do in the draft to get an OT. If they didn't get Glenn, I would be scared right along with you. Not saying I'm not nervous, but I'll trust the new coaches to figure it out for now

 

Conner Williams in Rd 2 was sitting there for them. 

Lots of possible tackles in Rd 3-6. 

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5 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said:

 

Conner Williams in Rd 2 was sitting there for them. 

Lots of possible tackles in Rd 3-6. 

I didn't say that there weren't any tackles. They shouldn't get a tackle just to get a tackle. I'm trusting that they have a plan. Alexander's gone. I've got more faith now.

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1 minute ago, Hooky said:

I didn't say that there weren't any tackles. They shouldn't get a tackle just to get a tackle. I'm trusting that they have a plan. Alexander's gone. I've got more faith now.

I appreciate the optimism. This feels a lot like last year. They seem to be telling us the ship isn't sinking when we can all see it sinking. 

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8 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said:

I appreciate the optimism. This feels a lot like last year. They seem to be telling us the ship isn't sinking when we can all see it sinking. 

This seems to be a little dramatic.

 

We upgraded the 2 worst starters on the line already. Boling is solid at LG. Now the right side is unsettled sure. But Westerman and Redmond did well in limited action last year. One or both of them could start on the right side. We saw enough in Hart to trade for him. I still have hope in Fisher.

 

Plus there's a long way to go before rosters are set. Still possible we sign a cap casualty or trade for someone.

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23 minutes ago, akiliMVP said:

This seems to be a little dramatic.

 

We upgraded the 2 worst starters on the line already. Boling is solid at LG. Now the right side is unsettled sure. But Westerman and Redmond did well in limited action last year. One or both of them could start on the right side. We saw enough in Hart to trade for him. I still have hope in Fisher.

 

Plus there's a long way to go before rosters are set. Still possible we sign a cap casualty or trade for someone.

FWIW, Lapham has watched tape of Hart and he says he can be a solid starter if healthy.  I trust his opinion more than say, Michael Weston's opinion.  At least he has NFL experience unlike a 4th or 5th round pick would have.  Fisher is also an option and I have not written him off either.  I like both of the players who should compete at RG and think Westerman in particular has been underutilized to this point.  Bottom line, the entire line wasn't getting completely overhauled and fixed in one off-season.  We have to give Pollack a chance to work with the guys we have and try to get more out of them.  It's not an easy fix but we need to see improvement.

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1 hour ago, MichaelWeston said:

I appreciate the optimism. This feels a lot like last year. They seem to be telling us the ship isn't sinking when we can all see it sinking. 

Like I always say, as fans, that's all we can do is be optimistic. We can't change anything.

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1 hour ago, akiliMVP said:

This seems to be a little dramatic.

 

We upgraded the 2 worst starters on the line already. Boling is solid at LG. Now the right side is unsettled sure. But Westerman and Redmond did well in limited action last year. One or both of them could start on the right side. We saw enough in Hart to trade for him. I still have hope in Fisher.

 

Plus there's a long way to go before rosters are set. Still possible we sign a cap casualty or trade for someone.

I am glad we got both guys and I liked both moves. 

 

Glenn is coming off an injury and his team gave up on him pretty quickly. While an upgrade it's still a question mark for me and if the answer to him being injured is Ogbuehi we are in trouble. 

I am fine with Price and think he solidifies another position.

Boling is a stud.

I am confident one of Westerman or Redmond can play RG. 

 

My fear is only at tackle. I don't think Glenn is solid and I don't like anyone else on the roster who is on the tackle depth chart right now. To me that's just way too dangerous. 

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35 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

FWIW, Lapham has watched tape of Hart and he says he can be a solid starter if healthy.  I trust his opinion more than say, Michael Weston's opinion.  At least he has NFL experience unlike a 4th or 5th round pick would have.  Fisher is also an option and I have not written him off either.  I like both of the players who should compete at RG and think Westerman in particular has been underutilized to this point.  Bottom line, the entire line wasn't getting completely overhauled and fixed in one off-season.  We have to give Pollack a chance to work with the guys we have and try to get more out of them.  It's not an easy fix but we need to see improvement.

Lapham is a pollyana. Does he know way more than me about OL play? yes. But he is irrationally positive. Not a bad trait for a human being but I think it taints his ability to provide constructive information for our discussion. What did he say about Ogbuehi last year? https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/8/5/16089298/anthony-munoz-dave-lapham-cedric-ogbuehi

 

People keep saying the entire line wasn't getting overhauled as if we couldn't have gotten one more player (Sign Fleming, draft Conner Williams) and be in a much better position. 

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27 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said:

Lapham is a pollyana. Does he know way more than me about OL play? yes. But he is irrationally positive. Not a bad trait for a human being but I think it taints his ability to provide constructive information for our discussion. What did he say about Ogbuehi last year? https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/8/5/16089298/anthony-munoz-dave-lapham-cedric-ogbuehi

 

People keep saying the entire line wasn't getting overhauled as if we couldn't have gotten one more player (Sign Fleming, draft Conner Williams) and be in a much better position. 

 

 

Some kind of OT depth that isn't absolute cringe to think about.  We may bring in someone late but it's hard to find even an average OT in FA.  Have to hope for some late camp cut of a vet making too much money.  Then we have to hope ol' Musty is willing to pay up for that insurance policy.  OT is a premier position but we seem willing to stock it with discount rack players, Glenn included.  That's simply not a good plan for any kind of long term success, even if it kind of works out in the short term.

 

 

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It seems like the Bengals are set on keeping both Ced and Fisher, regardless of how they performed just because they were drafted in first and second rounds.

 

They could and should have drafted at least 1 tackle before the 7th round, especially since our best options are less than a sure thing. It just seems like a huge risk to go into the season with such an important position still a huge question mark. 

 

I'm sure Bates is a fine player, but maybe if MB wasn't such a hypocrite and signed Reid then the Bengals could have selected an OT in the second instead of taking a safety.

 

In the grand scheme of things I think protecting Andy is more important than having a 3rd safety, but what do I know

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Some kind of OT depth that isn't absolute cringe to think about.  We may bring in someone late but it's hard to find even an average OT in FA.  Have to hope for some late camp cut of a vet making too much money.  Then we have to hope ol' Musty is willing to pay up for that insurance policy.  OT is a premier position but we seem willing to stock it with discount rack players, Glenn included.  That's simply not a good plan for any kind of long term success, even if it kind of works out in the short term.

 

 

Glenn's not a "discount rack player", we inherited his contract, right? In 2016 he signed a 5 year, $60,000,000 contract and he's $11.25/mil against the cap this season alone.

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6 minutes ago, Bunghole said:

Glenn's not a "discount rack player", we inherited his contract, right? In 2016 he signed a 5 year, $60,000,000 contract and he's $11.25/mil against the cap this season alone.

 

Yes, he is.  The Bills let him go for a reason.  $11.5 mil for a dude that hasn't played a full season in years is hardly an endorsement.  All that means is we paid full price for a scratch & dent item.

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7 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Yes, he is.  The Bills let him go for a reason.  $11.5 mil for a dude that hasn't played a full season in years is hardly an endorsement.  All that means is we paid full price for a scratch & dent item.

I also think people overstate how hurt he's really been. Here's NFL.com:                                                                                                                                                          G                                                                             

 

2017 Buffalo Bills 6 5
 
2016 Buffalo Bills 11 11
 
2015 Buffalo Bills 16 16
 
2014 Buffalo Bills 16 16
 
2013 Buffalo Bills 16 16
 
2012 Buffalo Bills 13 13
 
TOTAL 78 77
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1 hour ago, PatternMaster said:

It seems like the Bengals are set on keeping both Ced and Fisher, regardless of how they performed just because they were drafted in first and second rounds.

 

They could and should have drafted at least 1 tackle before the 7th round, especially since our best options are less than a sure thing. It just seems like a huge risk to go into the season with such an important position still a huge question mark. 

 

I'm sure Bates is a fine player, but maybe if MB wasn't such a hypocrite and signed Reid then the Bengals could have selected an OT in the second instead of taking a safety.

 

In the grand scheme of things I think protecting Andy is more important than having a 3rd safety, but what do I know

Not as much as they do.

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So he played 13 games as a rookie, then 2013-2015 he played all 16 games 3 years in a row. Missed 5 games in 2016 and 10 in 2017, all of his games he's played in he's been the starter. Are the last two seasons some cause for concern? Sure. But like I said in an earlier thread, we're inheriting a pretty big contract with him, you don't think 'ol Musty didn't have his due diligence done when over over eleven million dollars are due to Glenn just this year alone? Remember, Mike Brown's money.

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