How do you fix this team?

[WRAPradio]

I'm talking personnel changes here.  We all know coaching changes would help, but what personnel things can we do?  Here are my thoughts.

 

1. Trade AJ Green.  He's getting older and still has some trade value.  I thought we should have traded him before this season, not because he isn't a great player, but because he's an aging receiver who's proven to be injury prone over the past few years.  There are too many holes on the offensive line and on defense to have a star receiver (which in my opinion is a luxury).  AJ is great, and probably the best Bengals receiver ever, but realistically we're not going to win a Superbowl while AJ is in his prime or a significant contributor...we have too many limitations on this team.  If you can get a couple of draft picks for him (a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year?  Maybe a 1st and 4th this year?) it's totally worth it.  

 

2.  If the value is there in the draft, draft a QB that could take over for Andy in a year or two.  Not a 6th or 7th round guy, but a 1st or 2nd round guy.  The only QBs possibly worth it this year are Herbert (I'd pass on him), Haskins (I'd draft him) and maybe Will Grier from WVU.  

 

3.  Time to part ways with Burfict.  From the bad reputation, concussions and overall lack of availability it's time to let him go.  Not only that, when he was out there this year, he wasn't a difference maker.  

 

4.  Build the offensive line though the draft and FA.  FA will be expensive, but I think we can afford one high priced OL.  I don't know who's out there, but a tackle and guard are totally necessary.

 

5.  Linebackers.  I've always undervalued the position, and obviously the Bengals have too.  With the way offenses are run today, you need LBs that can cover...we have zero...it's time to change that.  We're most likley not going to find two this off-season, but we have to get at least one.  

 

Thoughts?  I know when I brought up the AJ Green thing before people thought I was crazy, I'm going to assume that's still the case.

[whodey?]

Only one thing that would fix this team. Hire a proper gm not related to the Brown family and let him or her do their job. Period. Everything else will fall into place. 

 

Otherwise it’s going to be the same old song and dance. 

[fluhartz]

1 hour ago, WRAPradio said:

I'm talking personnel changes here.  We all know coaching changes would help, but what personnel things can we do?  Here are my thoughts.

 

1. Trade AJ Green.  He's getting older and still has some trade value.  I thought we should have traded him before this season, not because he isn't a great player, but because he's an aging receiver who's proven to be injury prone over the past few years.  There are too many holes on the offensive line and on defense to have a star receiver (which in my opinion is a luxury).  AJ is great, and probably the best Bengals receiver ever, but realistically we're not going to win a Superbowl while AJ is in his prime or a significant contributor...we have too many limitations on this team.  If you can get a couple of draft picks for him (a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year?  Maybe a 1st and 4th this year?) it's totally worth it.  

 

2.  If the value is there in the draft, draft a QB that could take over for Andy in a year or two.  Not a 6th or 7th round guy, but a 1st or 2nd round guy.  The only QBs possibly worth it this year are Herbert (I'd pass on him), Haskins (I'd draft him) and maybe Will Grier from WVU.  

 

3.  Time to part ways with Burfict.  From the bad reputation, concussions and overall lack of availability it's time to let him go.  Not only that, when he was out there this year, he wasn't a difference maker.  

 

4.  Build the offensive line though the draft and FA.  FA will be expensive, but I think we can afford one high priced OL.  I don't know who's out there, but a tackle and guard are totally necessary.

 

5.  Linebackers.  I've always undervalued the position, and obviously the Bengals have too.  With the way offenses are run today, you need LBs that can cover...we have zero...it's time to change that.  We're most likley not going to find two this off-season, but we have to get at least one.  

 

Thoughts?  I know when I brought up the AJ Green thing before people thought I was crazy, I'm going to assume that's still the case.

I agree with most of this

 

3 minutes ago, whodey? said:

Only one thing that would fix this team. Hire a proper gm not related to the Brown family and let him or her do their job. Period. Everything else will fall into place. 

 

Otherwise it’s going to be the same old song and dance. 

I agree with all of this

[Hooky]

Light a match and watch it burn.

[Jamie_B]

I hate that this is true but until Brown decides to modernize the front office the best we can hope for it that the stars align in terms of having the coaching staff, and players.

 

As far as having a GM, that's basically what Duke Tobin does, so I think it's a bit more complicated than that. As I understand it though we have one of the smallest front offices in the league relying mostly on coaches for scouting talent.

 

I'm not opposed to coaches doing some of that as you want coaches that can help decide what players fit their system the best, but something has to change on this end.

[T-Dub]

Hide Mikey's car keys

[Hooky]

2 hours ago, whodey? said:

Only one thing that would fix this team. Hire a proper gm not related to the Brown family and let him or her do their job. Period. Everything else will fall into place. 

 

Otherwise it’s going to be the same old song and dance. 

That doesn't answer how the team is going to get fixed. People have been clamoring for a GM since Mikey took over. Like that is magically going to fix things. It depends on who it is and how much control Mikey gives him.

 

Whomever is calling the shots needs to shitcan the entire coaching staff and hopefully replace them with coaches that can scheme for whatever players they are given. Players are secondary.

[LostInDaJungle]

[whodey?]

6 minutes ago, Hooky said:

That doesn't answer how the team is going to get fixed. People have been clamoring for a GM since Mikey took over. Like that is magically going to fix things. It depends on who it is and how much control Mikey gives him.

 

Whomever is calling the shots needs to shitcan the entire coaching staff and hopefully replace them with coaches that can scheme for whatever players they are given. Players are secondary.

That’s what I was getting at. A good gm with full control and no family involvement will come in and clean house and implement his own staff. 

[LostInDaJungle]

8 minutes ago, Hooky said:

That doesn't answer how the team is going to get fixed. People have been clamoring for a GM since Mikey took over. Like that is magically going to fix things. It depends on who it is and how much control Mikey gives him.

 

Whomever is calling the shots needs to shitcan the entire coaching staff and hopefully replace them with coaches that can scheme for whatever players they are given. Players are secondary.

The problem with that is that throughout all of our years of misery... The one constant IS the GM.

For all of his flaws, Marvin Lewis IS a good coach. In a very Tony Dungee kind of way. He has changed the way the Bengals do business and over his time has remade the club from the ground up. 

However, and you may disagree with where the blame lies on this, he can't stop Mike and Katie from letting Whitworth walk. He can't stop them from stocking the club with high talent / low character players. He can't stop them from resigning Eifert and assuming they were "good" at TE. 

Would any other team retain their GM after 40 years without a Super Bowl? How many coaches have we had during that time, and what has changed? Scientifically speaking, it's time to start changing the OTHER variable in this equation.

[|SF2|]

14 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

The problem with that is that throughout all of our years of misery... The one constant IS the GM.

For all of his flaws, Marvin Lewis IS a good coach. In a very Tony Dungee kind of way. He has changed the way the Bengals do business and over his time has remade the club from the ground up. 

However, and you may disagree with where the blame lies on this, he can't stop Mike and Katie from letting Whitworth walk. He can't stop them from stocking the club with high talent / low character players. He can't stop them from resigning Eifert and assuming they were "good" at TE. 

Would any other team retain their GM after 40 years without a Super Bowl? How many coaches have we had during that time, and what has changed? Scientifically speaking, it's time to start changing the OTHER variable in this equation.

Or 29 years without a playoff win?  With the salary cap and draft the way they are it is almost impossible to go 29 years with no playoff victory.  You have a 18.75% chance every year to win a playoff game.  29 years without one is almost mathematically impossible. In fact, the odds are 0.24%.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

2 hours ago, whodey? said:

Only one thing that would fix this team. Hire a proper gm not related to the Brown family and let him or her do their job. Period. Everything else will fall into place. 

 

Otherwise it’s going to be the same old song and dance. 

And 'let him or her do their job' would be the key point, get the Tree Sloth out of the operations. 

[I_C_Deadpeople]

20 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

The problem with that is that throughout all of our years of misery... The one constant IS the GM.

For all of his flaws, Marvin Lewis IS a good coach. In a very Tony Dungee kind of way. He has changed the way the Bengals do business and over his time has remade the club from the ground up. 

However, and you may disagree with where the blame lies on this, he can't stop Mike and Katie from letting Whitworth walk. He can't stop them from stocking the club with high talent / low character players. He can't stop them from resigning Eifert and assuming they were "good" at TE. 

Would any other team retain their GM after 40 years without a Super Bowl? How many coaches have we had during that time, and what has changed? Scientifically speaking, it's time to start changing the OTHER variable in this equation.

ML is not a good coach - his playoff and 'big game' record speaks to that. If he has been handcuffed by the Tree Sloth then he should have quite 10 years ago and moved on. He is arrogant for no reason, useless at in game adjustments, useless at time management, his teams have never been consistent at energy levels and fundamentals. He is almost as stubborn as Mikey, probably why they work well together. 

[T-Dub]

 

5 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

And 'let him or her do their job' would be the key point, get the Tree Sloth out of the operations. 

 

I have a hard time convincing myself there is any chance of that happening voluntarily. 

[I_C_Deadpeople]

Just now, T-Dub said:

 

 

I have a hard time convincing myself there is any chance of that happening voluntarily. 

There is 0% chance it will happen with Mikey in charge. He has to die or so senile and the we have to see if Katie runs thing differently. Mikey will NEVER change, this he has proven over and over. 

[|SF2|]

5 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

I have a hard time convincing myself there is any chance of that happening voluntarily. 

It would be just as hard to convince me ESPN gives a fuck about the NBA's Eastern Conference.

[Hooky]

37 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

The problem with that is that throughout all of our years of misery... The one constant IS the GM.

For all of his flaws, Marvin Lewis IS a good coach. In a very Tony Dungee kind of way. He has changed the way the Bengals do business and over his time has remade the club from the ground up. 

However, and you may disagree with where the blame lies on this, he can't stop Mike and Katie from letting Whitworth walk. He can't stop them from stocking the club with high talent / low character players. He can't stop them from resigning Eifert and assuming they were "good" at TE. 

Would any other team retain their GM after 40 years without a Super Bowl? How many coaches have we had during that time, and what has changed? Scientifically speaking, it's time to start changing the OTHER variable in this equation.

I am not just talking about Marvin. The whole coaching staff sucks. There are coaching staffs that successfully deal with Whitworth and Eifert type scenarios. People will argue with me in the Fantasy football era, but most professional football players are good, it more comes down to how the coaches use them. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter what players Mikey gets, but I think the bengals have a roster that can be coached to success. The depth is horrible, but are they under-developed? Do you ever wonder where Brady or Brees would be with our coaches?

[LostInDaJungle]

34 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

ML is not a good coach - his playoff and 'big game' record speaks to that. If he has been handcuffed by the Tree Sloth then he should have quite 10 years ago and moved on. He is arrogant for no reason, useless at in game adjustments, useless at time management, his teams have never been consistent at energy levels and fundamentals. He is almost as stubborn as Mikey, probably why they work well together. 

The best way to lose an argument is to overstate it.

Is he better than Coslet? LeBeau?

He has his flaws, but I also don't think that many people could have walked in here in 2003 and been successful. He has also changed the way the club is run. Yes, he leaves much to be desired on game day, but that's ~15% of his job. I get that we're all at Costco right now getting our panties in a bunch, but he's done a lot on the admin side, and has been the only person who has been able to get Mikey boy to modernize his club to the late 80's. The other 85% of his job.

[whodey365]

I don't know if I trade Green especially if the Bengals actually draft a qb early but I would try and trade Andy, Kirk and Gio. Try to stock up on round 2,3 and 4 picks. I'd draft Haskins if he's there or a playmaker at LB. I was begging for Jaylon Smith a couple years back but I also wanted Reuben Foster, yikes. Continue to try and upgrade the OL and do something, anything at LB. Most of the other position groups seem solid.

[WRAPradio]

2 hours ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

ML is not a good coach - his playoff and 'big game' record speaks to that. If he has been handcuffed by the Tree Sloth then he should have quite 10 years ago and moved on. He is arrogant for no reason, useless at in game adjustments, useless at time management, his teams have never been consistent at energy levels and fundamentals. He is almost as stubborn as Mikey, probably why they work well together. 

I think Marvin is a GOOD coach, not a GREAT one, but a good one.  Yes, his "big game/prime time" record sticks, but I think that's because we normally don't have the better team and those prime time matchups are against good teams.  Marvin is great at beating teams he should beat and that's been enough to get us to the playoffs.  Once we get to the playoffs we're normally playing teams that are better than us.  Let's look at the playoffs losses:

 

'05 - Loss to Stealers - Carson goes down on the 3rd offensive play of the game for us...not Marvin's fault

 

'09 - Loss to Jets - I think the teams were about equal here.  We were at home, Benson played well and Revis shut down Chad.  The team didn't play well overall, but the Jets probably had the better team.

 

'11 - Loss to Texans - they were the better team, even with a backup QB.  We had no answer for JJ Watt and we really weren't a very good team

 

'12 - Loss to Texans - Again, they had the better team.  We were road dogs and lost a one score game.  Frustrating?  Yes, but they had the better team

 

'13 - Loss to Chargers - this is one we should have won.  We had the better team.  Gio fumbles right before the half near the goal line, and Dalton is responsible for 3 straight turnovers in the 2nd half (including a self imposed fumble where he dove forward, didn't get touched and lost the ball)...I'm not sure what Marvin could have done differently.  If Dalton doesn't wet the bed we probably win this one

 

'14 - Loss to Colts - injuries.  Rex Burkhead was play some WR for us in this game.  There was no way we were winning this

 

'15 - Loss to Stealers.  This one has been talked about ad nauseam.  The Hill fumble, the Burfict/Pac Man meltdowns and horrible officiating (Joey Porter with no flag for being in our huddle, the TD by Bryant the NFL later said shouldn't have counted, the non-call on Gio getting speared in the chin AND they get the ball).  In my opinion, not Marvin's fault.  We were the better team with a backup QB who played like crap for 50 minutes in that game.

 

I agree it's time for a coaching change, but Marvin is a good coach with obvious flaws.  

[WRAPradio]

32 minutes ago, whodey365 said:

I don't know if I trade Green especially if the Bengals actually draft a qb early but I would try and trade Andy, Kirk and Gio. Try to stock up on round 2,3 and 4 picks. I'd draft Haskins if he's there or a playmaker at LB. I was begging for Jaylon Smith a couple years back but I also wanted Reuben Foster, yikes. Continue to try and upgrade the OL and do something, anything at LB. Most of the other position groups seem solid.

 

I just don't see how we win with AJ next year.  Then after that do you re-sign a 30-something WR to a long-term deal?  Might as well trade him while he has some value and start the rebuild  We have some young, talented players on this roster.  Mixon, Boyd, Lawson, Hubbard, WJIII, Bates; that's a solid nucleus to build a team around. As much as I love AJ, we're probably not winning the SB next year and I don't know if you can tie up a bunch on money in the WR position when there are so many other needs -- especially when (historically speaking) that WR could fall off of the cliff at any time due to age & he's already been dinged up over the past few seasons and missed significant time.   If you can get a couple of draft picks b/w the 1st and 3rd rounds, I think you have to move him.

[|ArmyBengal|]

I concur that ML is a good but not great coach and did an admirable job getting the organization out of the futility it once was.  I'm disappointed that he was unable to achieve more but if there was ever a snake bitten organization, this seems to be it. Palmer knee, Pollack breaks neck, Slim tragically dies, O’Dell drug problem, Kijana Carter (older reference), Kenny Irons, 

 

Coaching staff arguments aside, I think the real problem comes down to personnel and personnel decisions. It seems like most of them just don't pay off or worse, blow up in their faces. Too many times the "next man up" is not getting it done.

 

The five year playoff run was due to solid drafts but not spectacular ones. But lately just not enough talent has been produced. And the talent available, can’t stay healthy.

 

Marv has to feel like he's cursed.

[WRAPradio]

28 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

I concur that ML is a good but not great coach and did an admirable job getting the organization out of the futility it once was.  I'm disappointed that he was unable to achieve more but if there was ever a snake bitten organization, this seems to be it. Palmer knee, Pollack breaks neck, Slim tragically dies, O’Dell drug problem, Kijana Carter (older reference), Kenny Irons, 

 

Coaching staff arguments aside, I think the real problem comes down to personnel and personnel decisions. It seems like most of them just don't pay off or worse, blow up in their faces. Too many times the "next man up" is not getting it done.

 

The five year playoff run was due to solid drafts but not spectacular ones. But lately just not enough talent has been produced. And the talent available, can’t stay healthy.

 

Marv has to feel like he's cursed.

 

Agree 100%

[|SF2|]

1 hour ago, WRAPradio said:

 

I just don't see how we win with AJ next year.  Then after that do you re-sign a 30-something WR to a long-term deal?  Might as well trade him while he has some value and start the rebuild  We have some young, talented players on this roster.  Mixon, Boyd, Lawson, Hubbard, WJIII, Bates; that's a solid nucleus to build a team around. As much as I love AJ, we're probably not winning the SB next year and I don't know if you can tie up a bunch on money in the WR position when there are so many other needs -- especially when (historically speaking) that WR could fall off of the cliff at any time due to age & he's already been dinged up over the past few seasons and missed significant time.   If you can get a couple of draft picks b/w the 1st and 3rd rounds, I think you have to move him.

I am sorry but teams are built around their offensive and defensive lines.  The most important thing a new organization or a rebuilding team needs to do first is build a good offensive line so the rest of the offense can be developed.   Second is build a solid defensive line.  Not one of the players you mention play any line position.  They are much easier to replace than quality lineman, particularly o lineman.

[T-Dub]