Why I think next year will be different

[sparky151]

14 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

As a fellow local, I share the admiration of the Clipper organization. For a AAA franchise, they have made the experience quite enjoyable. Stadium is top-notch, amenities abundant, well-presented. In many ways, better than a lot of major league teams. The county had a lot of pull in this, of course; however the parent club has at least as much. When the Nationals were the the parent club, it was nowhere close to today's product.

 

i have gone ahead and purchased season passes for the Crew. Not so much for the present, but I really want to be the first in for the new stadium. Between the all-in by the City/County, and the Haslam dollars, this is going to be a very exciting adventure.

 

Clippers are well run and a minor point of local pride. They also turn a profit for the county (since the Indians cover the player payroll).

 

I used to be a Crew season ticket holder and resumed last year as part of a pledge to save the Crew. I renewed for next season and also look forward to the new stadium. My brother in Cincinnati is an FCC season ticket holder. He used to have Bengals season seats but gave them up in disgust. I don't think he was able to sell his PSL and just forfeited it. Football and soccer season don't overlap much but Bengals are losing the interest of the public in Cincinnati while FCC has it despite a terrible first year in MLS.

[|SF2|]

2 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Not in terms of valuation but in terms of legality and public acceptance, yes. 

You actually think that if the city wanted to just take the Bengals away from the Brown family they could?   You actually think that would stand up in court?  It would NEVER happen unless there were criminal implications or tax issues involved.   This isn't some dive bar with underage drinking and police showing up to break up bar fights every Friday and Saturday night. 

[sparky151]

12 hours ago, MichaelWeston said:

1. I have no idea what is in Cordy Glenn's mind. I think him playing at all is an odd sign. I certainly wouldn't bet on him staying. 

2. I can all but guarantee AJ Green stays. Dehner has said that the plan is to Franchise him at the very least if we can't get anything done. 

3. Defense has been solid since we cut Preston Brown.

4. I think that if we do thee things we get far better very quickly. I don't actually believe we are smart enough to do these things. 

 

That's the problem. It's not that the Bengals can't be fixed by anyone, it's that they can't be fixed by present management because they won't take action. The perpetual default of inaction means opportunities get missed. While the Bengals aren't most free agents first choice, most players will still take the best deal and the Bengals could add talent in free agency via the simple device of paying more. But no, they'd rather overpay the Bobby Hart and Preston Brown's of this world.

[sparky151]

Just now, SF2 said:

You actually think that if the city wanted to just take the Bengals away from the Brown family they could?   You actually think that would stand up in court?  It would NEVER happen unless there were criminal implications or tax issues involved.   This isn't some dive bar with underage drinking and police showing up to break up bar fights every Friday and Saturday night. 

 

You keep making this erroneous claim. What exactly would be the legal impediment to a public taking of the team? Be specific.

 

The actual impediments are lining up financing. The team is worth a billion dollars or more. The city/county would have to come up with that somehow. Or arrange to take the team and resell it. If the city actually started condemnation proceedings, the Browns could fight it out until the jury attached a value of $600 mil to the team. Or more likely they sell to someone else for a couple of billion and the county's objective is achieved that way.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

46 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

That's the problem. It's not that the Bengals can't be fixed by anyone, it's that they can't be fixed by present management because they won't take action. The perpetual default of inaction means opportunities get missed. While the Bengals aren't most free agents first choice, most players will still take the best deal and the Bengals could add talent in free agency via the simple device of paying more. But no, they'd rather overpay the Bobby Hart and Preston Brown's of this world.

Bingo. Well said

[|SF2|]

2 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

You keep making this erroneous claim. What exactly would be the legal impediment to a public taking of the team? Be specific.

 

The actual impediments are lining up financing. The team is worth a billion dollars or more. The city/county would have to come up with that somehow. Or arrange to take the team and resell it. If the city actually started condemnation proceedings, the Browns could fight it out until the jury attached a value of $600 mil to the team. Or more likely they sell to someone else for a couple of billion and the county's objective is achieved that way.

No no no, you don't get to try that.  What exactly would be the legal REASON for the public taking the team?   There is NO way you can claim the team can't be fixed without PROVING they are broken.  The team just this decade made the playoffs 5 straight years.  The team is profitable.  The team brings tax revenue to the city.  The team has a better overall record this decade than 14 other teams.  They have more playoff appearances this decade than half the league.   They had the same coach for 16 years, more than ever other team other than New England and he had a WINNING record.   Sorry, you would be laughed out of court if you tried to convince a judge and jury the Bengals are a broken franchise.    Yeah, they can't win a playoff game but Cleveland and Detroit can't even get to the post season.

[sparky151]

You don't seem to understand what eminent domain is. It's a sovereign power of governments at all levels. There are 2 requirements, first that the property being taken be used for a public purpose, second that fair compensation be paid to the owner. The public purpose can be for the entertainment of local citizens. Same justification used for grants to local performing arts organizations, just on a bigger scale. There's no legal requirement to show that Mike Brown is incompetent at running an NFL team. 

 

The public campaign would be that a large part of the Bengals value is based on their very favorable lease provided by the citizens. Since the citizens have spent $450 mil or more to provide the team a home, why not own the team and enjoy the benefits of NFL cash flows? Why not hire professional management rather than relying on people who share Paul Brown's DNA?

 

If the county wanted to keep the team, it would have to find a source of funds to pay for it. If it simply wanted new ownership, then that's simple enough. Find a billionaire somewhere who wants to own an NFL team. Get him to loan the money at no interest charge and cover legal costs, then take the team and resell it to him.

[Jamie_B]

48 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

You don't seem to understand what eminent domain is. It's a sovereign power of governments at all levels. There are 2 requirements, first that the property being taken be used for a public purpose, second that fair compensation be paid to the owner. The public purpose can be for the entertainment of local citizens. Same justification used for grants to local performing arts organizations, just on a bigger scale. There's no legal requirement to show that Mike Brown is incompetent at running an NFL team. 

 

The public campaign would be that a large part of the Bengals value is based on their very favorable lease provided by the citizens. Since the citizens have spent $450 mil or more to provide the team a home, why not own the team and enjoy the benefits of NFL cash flows? Why not hire professional management rather than relying on people who share Paul Brown's DNA?

 

If the county wanted to keep the team, it would have to find a source of funds to pay for it. If it simply wanted new ownership, then that's simple enough. Find a billionaire somewhere who wants to own an NFL team. Get him to loan the money at no interest charge and cover legal costs, then take the team and resell it to him.

Eminent Domain may get the city of the contract with the Bengals....and that's a big stretch....but you have to then get the NFL to agree to let the city run the team and not Browns....good luck with that.

[|SF2|]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

You don't seem to understand what eminent domain is. It's a sovereign power of governments at all levels. There are 2 requirements, first that the property being taken be used for a public purpose, second that fair compensation be paid to the owner. The public purpose can be for the entertainment of local citizens. Same justification used for grants to local performing arts organizations, just on a bigger scale. There's no legal requirement to show that Mike Brown is incompetent at running an NFL team. 

What public purpose?  A new library?  Interstate?   National Park?  What?   And for God's sake don't say to build  an NFL football team call the Cincinnati Bengals, that would be utterly ridiculous since that ALREADY exists and is open to the public.    Eminent domain is used to take private use land or property in order to CONVERT it into a DIFFERENT public use property.   Conversion means there is a government "Project" that needs the land.  The project can't be taking over an EXISTING NFL franchise.  

 

In order to prevail in an eminent domain or condemnation action, the government will need to demonstrate that the project in question is for "public use." This meant that the property to be taken must confer some benefit or advantage to the public. Some examples of government projects for public use include:

 

Transportation projects, like roads, railroads, and bridges

Government buildings, such as post offices

Structures related to the water supply, like aquifers

Expansion of public and national parks

Preparation for war efforts and production of war materials

 

Taking over an existing and legal business to give it to someone else because you think he would do a better job reeks of Fascism.  You sound like Michael Corleone talking to Mo Green about buying his Casino.  

 

 

[|westside bengal|]

I wonder if the eminent domain argument could be used to take PBS completely over.  Run concessions and control PSL's.  Keep the luxury suites money.  Use the stadium for outside, money making opportunities.  Charge the Bengals office rental.  Sell naming rights.  Maybe MB will start warming up to the idea to sell the team to Hamilton County.

 

 

[|SF2|]

54 minutes ago, westside bengal said:

I wonder if the eminent domain argument could be used to take PBS completely over.  Run concessions and control PSL's.  Keep the luxury suites money.  Use the stadium for outside, money making opportunities.  Charge the Bengals office rental.  Sell naming rights.  Maybe MB will start warming up to the idea to sell the team to Hamilton County.

 

 

If MB decided to sell the Bengals to Hamilton County, it would not be a case of eminent domain.  BTW,  there is NO FUCKING WAY the NFL would allow the city to buy the team.  NO WAY.  You think the other owners want a bunch of dirt bag politicians showing up at the owner's meeting?  Not gonna happen.  

[|westside bengal|]

22 minutes ago, SF2 said:

If MB decided to sell the Bengals to Hamilton County, it would not be a case of eminent domain.  BTW,  there is NO FUCKING WAY the NFL would allow the city to buy the team.  NO WAY.  You think the other owners want a bunch of dirt bag politicians showing up at the owner's meeting?  Not gonna happen.  

In reality the only difference is one is a group of dirt bag politicians and most of the other owners are just dirt bags.

 

[|SF2|]

1 hour ago, westside bengal said:

In reality the only difference is one is a group of dirt bag politicians and most of the other owners are just dirt bags.

 

Do you know most of the owners?  I don’t consider the Browns bad people at all. They just aren’t very good at building a highly successful football team on the field.   
 

Most of the teams and players are very active in their communities.  Tom Benson was beloved in New Orleans for his philanthropic work particularly after Katrina.   

[Le Tigre]

4 hours ago, westside bengal said:

I wonder if the eminent domain argument could be used to take PBS completely over.  Run concessions and control PSL's.  Keep the luxury suites money.  Use the stadium for outside, money making opportunities.  Charge the Bengals office rental.  Sell naming rights.  Maybe MB will start warming up to the idea to sell the team to Hamilton County.

 

 

Back to the fundamental point: there must be a reason for the takeover and fair compensation paid. Otherwise it is a 4th Amendment violation. Not-so-fundamental point: the county would be taking over its own property, currently being domiciled by contract with a tenant. The tenant has its contractural rights to operate within the structure--and unless the contract includes rights of rescission by the county (so doubtful that it less than zero), attempts to force the tenant out is a gross manifest interference of contract, and would be shot out of the sky by the common pleas court. 

 

Rules of Contracts 101. 

[Catfish Bob]

It breaks my soul to say it but AJ Green is gone. Dude deserves a chance to at least have a chance to play in a conference championship. I would actually love to see him on that big stage too just hurts as not a Bengal. But since when has a Bengal great stayed? Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Palmer, just to name a few of the many great players I've seen over my lifetime that GTFO of Cincy when they could.  See no reason to think it will be different with Green.

 

 

At least Tate looks like AJ Green 2.0.  We will have the privilege of watching him waste a potentially great career playing for the BenGals and Dave Shula 2k2.  

[PatternMaster]

6 hours ago, Catfish Bob said:

It breaks my soul to say it but AJ Green is gone. Dude deserves a chance to at least have a chance to play in a conference championship. I would actually love to see him on that big stage too just hurts as not a Bengal. But since when has a Bengal great stayed? Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Palmer, just to name a few of the many great players I've seen over my lifetime that GTFO of Cincy when they could.  See no reason to think it will be different with Green.

 

 

At least Tate looks like AJ Green 2.0.  We will have the privilege of watching him waste a potentially great career playing for the BenGals and Dave Shula 2k2.  

You high bruv???

[|SF2|]

2 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

You high bruv???

Team Weed has been active lately. 

[sparky151]

21 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

Eminent Domain may get the city of the contract with the Bengals....and that's a big stretch....but you have to then get the NFL to agree to let the city run the team and not Browns....good luck with that.

 

Well, that the nice thing about eminent domain, the new owner is simply stepping into the shoes of the prior owner, getting the property "as is".

 

If Mike Brown wanted to sell the team to the city, he couldn't since there is a league rule against it. MLB has a similar rule and when Ray Kroc died he tried to will the Padres to the city of San Diego. MLB blocked it since he was bound by the league rule. But partnership rules don't trump laws or sovereign powers so they have no effect on eminent domain. 

[Jamie_B]

3 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Well, that the nice thing about eminent domain, the new owner is simply stepping into the shoes of the prior owner, getting the property "as is".

 

If Mike Brown wanted to sell the team to the city, he couldn't since there is a league rule against it. MLB has a similar rule and when Ray Kroc died he tried to will the Padres to the city of San Diego. MLB blocked it since he was bound by the league rule. But partnership rules don't trump laws or sovereign powers so they have no effect on eminent domain. 

Except you would only be getting PBS, not the Bengals. The league would be more inclined to just let Brown move the team.

[sparky151]

21 hours ago, SF2 said:

What public purpose?  A new library?  Interstate?   National Park?  What?   And for God's sake don't say to build  an NFL football team call the Cincinnati Bengals, that would be utterly ridiculous since that ALREADY exists and is open to the public.    Eminent domain is used to take private use land or property in order to CONVERT it into a DIFFERENT public use property.   Conversion means there is a government "Project" that needs the land.  The project can't be taking over an EXISTING NFL franchise.  

 

In order to prevail in an eminent domain or condemnation action, the government will need to demonstrate that the project in question is for "public use." This meant that the property to be taken must confer some benefit or advantage to the public. Some examples of government projects for public use include:

 

Transportation projects, like roads, railroads, and bridges

Government buildings, such as post offices

Structures related to the water supply, like aquifers

Expansion of public and national parks

Preparation for war efforts and production of war materials

 

Taking over an existing and legal business to give it to someone else because you think he would do a better job reeks of Fascism.  You sound like Michael Corleone talking to Mo Green about buying his Casino.  

 

 

 

The question of the limits of what is a public use were at stake in the Kelo case. The US Supreme court said in effect that a public purpose is whatever a public body decides it is. The guardrail against abuse is the requirement to pay fair value for the property taken.

 

The most abusive takings are regulations that reduce the value of property but for which no compensation is paid. Suppose you own a lot that's a third of an acre and plan to build a house there when you retire. Then the city or township changes the zoning so houses can only be built on lots of at least half an acre. Good luck trying to recover any money from them. 

[sparky151]

21 hours ago, westside bengal said:

I wonder if the eminent domain argument could be used to take PBS completely over.  Run concessions and control PSL's.  Keep the luxury suites money.  Use the stadium for outside, money making opportunities.  Charge the Bengals office rental.  Sell naming rights.  Maybe MB will start warming up to the idea to sell the team to Hamilton County.

 

 

 

PBS is already owned by Hamilton county. If the city or county took over the Bengals, they would step into the shoes of the Brown family and could modify the lease as desired and agreed to by both parties.

[sparky151]

20 hours ago, SF2 said:

If MB decided to sell the Bengals to Hamilton County, it would not be a case of eminent domain.  BTW,  there is NO FUCKING WAY the NFL would allow the city to buy the team.  NO WAY.  You think the other owners want a bunch of dirt bag politicians showing up at the owner's meeting?  Not gonna happen.  

 

Yes, there is a league rule against civic or public ownership of teams (with an exception for the Packers who are a corporation whose shares are publicly sold. I'm a shareholder).

[sparky151]

4 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Except you would only be getting PBS, not the Bengals. The league would be more inclined to just let Brown move the team.

 

No, the eminent domain action would be against the shares of the team, not the stadium. It's already publicly owned. The shares are owned by the Brown family or a trust.

 

Incidentally, if the city did take over the team, Mike Brown would still be the president and GM, etc. Until he was fired.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

6 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

You high bruv???

LOL. Tate does not even look like Brandon Tate let alone AJ

[esjbh2]

1 hour ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

LOL. Tate does not even look like Brandon Tate let alone AJ

Respectfully disagree.  While comparisons to AJ are a stretch, he has been one of the few bright spots in this miserable season as I commented in another thread.  Auden >> Brandon.