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The What To Do With Boy Wonder Thread


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I was probably a smart move to start Finley at that point in the season.  We were out of the playoffs and you need to see if there's any potential in your 4th round QB.  If not, you can look at QBs in the draft.  If he showed any potential, that would have opened up the draft.


The Bengals HAD to start Finley. By that time, it was obvious that 1) they’d be at the top of the draft; and 2) Dalton was not the long-term answer.

They Bengals were obligated to find out whether they’d lucked out and found their answer in Finley.

And what use would it have been to keep Dalton in there? 3 wins?

They did I the right thing.


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18 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 ...After the interception return to the 3 yard line, we lined up in a spread with no back next to Dalton. Oy. 

 

True story:  After that interception, I said, "Great, we'll get another 3 points" (negativity instilled by recent team behavior). 

 

My daughter commented on my negativity and said "We'll get 6 points". 

 

I countered with "Why not 7?". 

 

Her reply: "I don't trust Fat Randy".   She nailed it...six points and a doink on the extra point.

 

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2 wins.  Probably deserves a raise and another helping of mediocrity.  The excuses are piling up as expected.
 
 


I haven’t seen anyone anywhere make an excuse for Zac Taylor.

“He probably deserves another year” seems to be about the best anybody has to offer.


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I'm sort of in the same boat as the "give him another year" crowd. My thought being if we grab a franchise qb and improve, great. If we suck again, we'll have yet another really high draft pick to further bolster the line or another position group (take your pick).

 

I guess this feeling just stems from the overall indifference I'm feeling toward this franchise. What's one more year of futility...

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Moving on from a coach after one year is a terrible idea, regardless of what everyone thinks they know in their expert mind. Watch how it works out for Cleveland. Set a dangerous precedent and watch your team die by it continually, year after year. 
 

We have all established that Cincinnati isn’t a destination gig. If our front office starts chopping fuckers down after a single season, how much less appealing do things look to potential candidates then?

 

Quite simply, the law of averages indicate that you don’t move on yet. Too many variables are in play. Everyone’s pissy, everyone has a diagnosis, I get it, but you gotta let things get at least into another campaign.

 

 

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Doc his usual pissy self:

I’m going to be unfair to Zac Taylor and I’m sorry about that.

 

If the Bengals rookie coach has done one thing dead-solid perfectly, it has been the way he has dealt with the media. Open, polite, never condescending or quick-tempered. Remarkable, given how the season went. You could suggest so what, Doc? But media create perceptions and perception is reality. Taylor’s good-natured professionalism will extend his honeymoon, if you believe he still has one.

 

I don’t.

 

That’s not his fault, at least not entirely. It’s mine. It’s my cynicism, born of 31 years writing about the Bengals. I read/see/hear a lot of “positive’’ stuff about all the “good guys’’ on this team. Ad nauseam, I listen to how they “stuck together’’ and “didn’t quit’’ and so on.

 

Big deal.       

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/2019/12/30/paul-daugherty-cant-buy-cincinnati-bengals-2020-happy-talk/2773344001/

 

 

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Daugherty is a tool. Always. 

 

As for Taylor, given the Williams injury, the fact that the LT position was an abomination unto God with Andre Smith fucking starting there from game 1 after the eternal Cordy Glenn concussion began, not having AJ Green at any point, it is REALLY hard for me know if he sucks or not. What would the premium outcome for this team with those handicaps have reasonably been? 6-10? Give or take? They lost like eight games by seven points or less. A more experienced coach likely wins a few of those and...then they are not in position to take Joe Burrow. Getting in position to take Burrow was everything. If that is why they went to Finley for three games (two of them winnable), then Taylor is a genius. Alas, I don't really think that's why they did that, but the accidental outcome of that was enormous for the future of this team.

 

The team didn't quit on him. It infuriated me as they damn near won the Miami game, but that does say something for his stewardship. I have to remind myself that not every Hall of Fame coach was awesome in year one. God knows the records of guys like Jimmy Johnson, Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh and even Bill Belichick were not great from the outset. So I am not willing to look at his 2-14 and say he totally sucks. I do think he has huge questions that he has to answer, and I don't think he survives another year like this one, but I do think it's not the end of the world that he gets another crack at this - and this time with a perhaps a potential difference maker at QB. Then again, some coaches are fucking terrible and perhaps Taylor is one of those. Super possible. But I don't know. My hunch still is that he is not, and I am ok seeing another year play out.

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I agree with the sentiment that Taylor should get another year, and regardless of that I also agree Mikey is going to give him one or more anyway.  I can however see a scenario where a coach should be canned after one terrible season, and I think that's where Lost is with all this... if in your mind the coach is just plain bad and has no hope of improving, then as a GM you don't have a choice but to move on.  I, however, don't think he's that terrible that you give up on him already.  Let's not forget that he was coming into a shitshow left by Marv and he is/was trying to rip it up and rebuild it from scratch.

 

Some pros and cons of Zac Taylor:

 

Pros:

- Is aggressive offensively, e.g. he goes for points at the end of halves and in "four down territory".

- Seems to understand how the clock works.  I realize this is a terribly low bar set by Marvin and should be kindergarten stuff for NFL-caliber coaches, but it was nice not to have to groan over those kinds of mistakes again this season.

- "Says the right things"... culture, accountability, winning one-on-ones... he at least knows what it takes.

- Doesn't seem to let the "trouble" players control the culture, and if they try, he outs them (Glenn incident).

- And with that said, he went to the "right" players (young ones) and requested they install a player culture.  This was a very smart move.

- He is flexible.  We finally heard about how after game 8? or so? they basically abandoned the Rams offense entirely and installed stuff the assistants brought to the table.  I realize many consider this clear evidence that Zac just isn't the guy, but I give him credit for being willing to try something different, taking the advice of his main people, and actually installing the thing mid-season.  The offense was much better after these changes and he actually used the players to their strengths! (another huge Marvin weakness).

- The defense also improved a great deal in the latter half of the season.  I really don't know what changed there... the players finally "got it" (i.e. the scheme)?  Anamario finally started to learn how to call an NFL defense?  Maybe a little of both?  Either way Zac gets credit for this happening under his watch.

- The players have nothing but good things to say about him, and they say they will play for him - and they certainly did so regardless of their record, which I consider the best argument in his favour.

 

Cons:

- Was obviously not ready.  Plain and simple he was not ready to be an NFL head coach.  The question is, did he learn enough "on the job" to do it better next year?  I for one think the improvement and continued effort by the players is a sign that he can.

- Questionable assistant coaches.  I know for most the theory is he took what he could get from a thin list of choices, with people he "knew", but either way there were some rough choices, especially Turner.  If he doesn't change up anybody I will be nervous going into to next season to say the least.  Sure it's Mike Brown and sure he's blindly loyal to coaches but after 2-14 something more than just players has to change, and it probably has to come from Zac himself.

- Like Anamoomoo, his play calling wasn't up to par for the NFL.  He got out coached many, many times.  With that said it did improve as the year went on, for both coaches, so I'm not without hope.

- He seems a little dazzled by QBs as well as his own play calls.  I consider this a sort of "unrequited QB syndrome", wherein a former college QB who never made it seems to live vicariously through his QBs as a coach, resulting in odd-ball play calls and treating the QB like "the good son".   I see this in many sports/positions but QB is a very particular one.

 

Regardless of any of this and regardless of what the Bengals actually add/subtract this off-season, I think we'll know all we'll need to know at this time next year with regard to Zac Taylor.

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12 minutes ago, membengal said:

Daugherty is a tool. Always. 

 

As for Taylor, given the Williams injury, the fact that the LT position was an abomination unto God with Andre Smith fucking starting there from game 1 after the eternal Cordy Glenn concussion began, not having AJ Green at any point, it is REALLY hard for me know if he sucks or not. What would the premium outcome for this team with those handicaps have reasonably been? 6-10? Give or take? They lost like eight games by seven points or less. A more experienced coach likely wins a few of those and...then they are not in position to take Joe Burrow. Getting in position to take Burrow was everything. If that is why they went to Finley for three games (two of them winnable), then Taylor is a genius. Alas, I don't really think that's why they did that, but the accidental outcome of that was enormous for the future of this team.

 

The team didn't quit on him. It infuriated me as they damn near won the Miami game, but that does say something for his stewardship. I have to remind myself that not every Hall of Fame coach was awesome in year one. God knows the records of guys like Jimmy Johnson, Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh and even Bill Belichick were not great from the outset. So I am not willing to look at his 2-14 and say he totally sucks. I do think he has huge questions that he has to answer, and I don't think he survives another year like this one, but I do think it's not the end of the world that he gets another crack at this - and this time with a perhaps a potential difference maker at QB. Then again, some coaches are fucking terrible and perhaps Taylor is one of those. Super possible. But I don't know. My hunch still is that he is not, and I am ok seeing another year play out.

At 2-14, he totally sucks and it should be unacceptable at this level. The above coaches you mentioned had HC or at least coordinator experience  and had a plan. What's the plan here? Going to Finley was stupid. How can you evaluate a quarterback in 3 games? The Drew Sample pick was stupid. The playcalling was predictable and stupid. This team regressed every week. Of course they didn't quit-they are paid professionals. It has nothing to do with Taylor. Keep him and expect more of the same next year.

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1 hour ago, Big Alice said:


I haven’t seen anyone anywhere make an excuse for Zac Taylor.

“He probably deserves another year” seems to be about the best anybody has to offer.

 

 

 

If you read the other threads including this one;

 

1.  They don't give him players

2.  He hasn't had time to put in his 'system'

3.  Injuries

4.  Not his people

5.  Everyone gets more than a year

6.  He had to make do with the hand dealt him

 

Not necessary to go on because the proof is there.  Excuses will continue.

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3 minutes ago, Numbers said:

 

If you read the other threads including this one;

 

1.  They don't give him players

2.  He hasn't had time to put in his 'system'

3.  Injuries

4.  Not his people

5.  Everyone gets more than a year

6.  He had to make do with the hand dealt him

 

Not necessary to go on because the proof is there.  Excuses will continue.

Funny thing, there’s a fine line between “excuses” and “reasons.” 
 

I’m not so sure it’s as black and white as all that.

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Just now, OneHeartBeat said:

At 2-14, he totally sucks and it should be unacceptable at this level. The above coaches you mentioned had HC or at least coordinator experience  and had a plan. What's the plan here? Going to Finley was stupid. How can you evaluate a quarterback in 3 games? The Drew Sample pick was stupid. The playcalling was predictable and stupid. This team regressed every week. Of course they didn't quit-they are paid professionals. It has nothing to do with Taylor. Keep him and expect more of the same next year.

Ok, most of this is irrational.

 

- Not to beat a dead horse, but "many of the greatest head coaches in history blah blah" - it's oft repeated, but it's true: one bad season does not a career make.

- Going to Finley was the right move because it was obvious the Bengals were going to have a top 5 if not THE top pick.  They actually traded up for Finley and thus thought he had a chance to make it as a starter.  Taylor had to know if Finley was what he thought he was, so it was exactly the right move for the future.  It wasn't like Finley was some late-round flyer pick that they forced in there, he was a guy Taylor thought could be the future of the team.  And don't forget the team had *no wins*.  If there was ever a season to "try shit", it was this one.  As for evaluating him... I think it was pretty obvious after 3 games that Finley wasn't what they thought he was.  It doesn't mean he can't become a serviceable backup, but he ain't no starter.

- Yeah the Drew Sample thing was bad and it shows they were "picking for the scheme" as opposed to picking the BPA.  Lesson learned, don't do it again (which they already showed they can do by tossing the scheme entirely mid-season).

- The play calling was predictable but again got better after they changed schemes.  This is the biggest thing Taylor has to improve, and IMO is the biggest argument in favour of those who are pessimistic about him.  The good part is it takes experience to improve stuff like that, and he got it.  Now, he has to show he learned from it.

- The team did not regress every week, let's get real.  Joe Mixon went from nightmare season to 1100 yards based almost entirely on the last 8 games.  The defense kept teams under 20 points a bunch of times (especially if you subtract points given up by the offense).  Nope, the team got better, this is a false argument.

- Players quit *all* *the* *time*.  You are a Bengal fan, right?  How many times have players quit on the Bengals?  Yeah, exactly.  Hell look at the Browns, their players continue to quit and even out each other in the media over it.  It all comes down to the culture of the team, and that is 100% on Taylor.

 

More of the same next year?  Quite possible.  But it won't be because they went to Finley this year, it won't be because Drew Sample is on the roster, and it certainly won't be because of any imaginary season-long regression.  You mentioned "the plan" and frankly Taylor mentions it over and over - the plan is to build the right culture, everything else flows from that.  Especially considering how poorly the season went record-wise, that's at least one thing I think he can say was successful: they've built a good culture base, the attitudes of the players proves that.  Now it's time to win or go home.

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1 hour ago, OneHeartBeat said:

At 2-14, he totally sucks and it should be unacceptable at this level. The above coaches you mentioned had HC or at least coordinator experience  and had a plan. What's the plan here? Going to Finley was stupid. How can you evaluate a quarterback in 3 games? The Drew Sample pick was stupid. The playcalling was predictable and stupid. This team regressed every week. Of course they didn't quit-they are paid professionals. It has nothing to do with Taylor. Keep him and expect more of the same next year.

I get it, you think he totally sucks. Understandable. I am not saying you're wrong! He might indeed totally suck! I was apoplectic over the Turner hire - felt it undercut his narrative from the start. The Sample draft pick was terrible! Playcalling at times was awful. All true, and if you are sure that he is gonna remain terrible, that's your right. If you were running the Bengals and fired him for those reasons, I get it.

 

But there were also things he oversaw that went well that could be listed too.  And were just listed above. 

 

I am not certain where I come down on Taylor - I don't think he sucks (but I could be wrong). I don't think he is a coaching genius (but I could be wrong). I think he is likely somewhere in-between and I think he showed enough adaptability that I am okay with him getting another year to see where this goes -especially since the new year will come with a potential difference maker at QB.

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3 hours ago, Big Alice said:

“He probably deserves another year because...” seems to be about the best anybody has to offer.

FTFY. Read the thread. Too many injured players, didn't get to hire his coaching staff. The excuses are piling up.

And if you think starting Finley made sense, I have a Mike Brown commemorative trophy to sell you.

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3 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

FTFY. Read the thread. Too many injured players, didn't get to hire his coaching staff. The excuses are piling up.

And if you think starting Finley made sense, I have a Mike Brown commemorative trophy to sell you.

I simply don’t think the front office is willing to go out and get a quality experienced coach.  We have to pray Zac figures it out. 
 

People are surprised Rivera would go to Washington but he is going to get paid if he goes, a lot. He is in DC which is loaded with huge money, media and influential fans. He will probably get more say over personnel than Zac does.   
 

Dallas, Washington and NYG are where every ego driven coach would love to go and succeed. Nobody important has Cincy anywhere close to the top. 

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4 hours ago, Big Alice said:

 


I haven’t seen anyone anywhere make an excuse for Zac Taylor.

“He probably deserves another year” seems to be about the best anybody has to offer.


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I've seen nothing but excuses for him. By any objective measure, a coach who turns in the worst year in franchise history, 4 games worse than his predecessor has no right to expect another season.  But instead it's all about injuries, Boling retiring before the season, AJ getting hurt because they didn't sweep the practice field, he didn't get a chance to hire good assistants, etc.

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

The club isn’t getting an experienced coach if they fire Zac. Nobody prominent wants to coach in NFL Siberia.  Best bet is to hope he figures it out. 

 

There are lots of coaches who would take the Bengals job if offered. Many of them have prior experience as a head coach in the NFL, some with success. 

 

Rivera seems to have the Redskins job. McDaniels will choose between Cleveland and Giants. Dallas will get their pick. Carolina will find someone. Jags might keep Marrone. 

 

That leaves lots of coaches for the Bengals to pick from. There's no reason for us to settle for anyone worse than Gregg Williams and Zac Taylor is obviously, undeniably worse than Gregg Williams. I think we can get Mike McCarthy or Jack Del Rio.

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5 hours ago, MichaelWeston said:

The players seem all in. That's what matters at this point. A smart, young coach has a 2-14 team that still wants to play for him. Now implement the system, get some better coaches and add some better players. 

Coaches come before the system - if you are going to get 'better' coaches (coordinators) you will get different systems. 

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