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The What To Do With Boy Wonder Thread


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2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Yeah, I believed that for roughly the week it took to hire Jim Turner.  It's like calling yourself a feminist and hiring Bill Cosby.

 

I think the "seeing what they have in Finley" line is fucking ridiculous.  They knew what they had in Finley back in August when they were printing Andy's photo on their tickets.  Then they run the Great Unknown out there & surprise, he still sucks.  The guy couldn't throw a clean ball 10 yards and they somehow didn't know this without putting him in a live game?  

 

The only qualities I've seen demonstrated by Taylor are an uncanny knack for avoiding blame, and then somehow convincing the fans that changing the QB is going to fix everything.  When it comes to self-preservation & salesmanship he's extremely talented.  As for coaching an NFL team, well..  2-14, tying a franchise low.   

 

I look forward to seeing whose fault it is when we're struggling to win 5-6 games next season.

 

 

So, piles of conjecture to support your suppositions?

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41 minutes ago, thezerawkid said:

So, piles of conjecture to support your suppositions?

 

Jim Turner being human garbage isn't conjecture.  Finley being terrible isn't conjecture.  The 2-14 record definitely isn't conjecture.

 

Your take on the locker room "buying in" & Taylor's amazing leadership on the other hand?

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7 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Jim Turner being human garbage isn't conjecture.  Finley being terrible isn't conjecture.  The 2-14 record definitely isn't conjecture.

 

Your take on the locker room "buying in" & Taylor's amazing leadership on the other hand?

Jim Turner may be human garbage but the line improved throughout the year considering the overall lack of talent. The line started the year with its pencilled in LT(X2), and RG gone and their projected center a bust.  You can keep going back to the Turner well to somehow validate Taylor being a terrible coach but it isn’t really true. 

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Yeah I was going to say the same thing. Dude

might be a POS but he ended up doing a pretty damned good job once it was all said and done. He had absolutely nothing to work with and every one of them got better as the year went on. Hell, he even had Bobby Hart playing good football before the season was over with.

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12 hours ago, thezerawkid said:

Why in the hell do you keep peddling this narrative? What proof do you have?

 

Say what you want about Zac Taylor’s coaching ability, but everything I have heard about, and from, him seem to indicate a very high character guy. The fact that he still had the locker room in week 17 at 1-14 seems to say a lot about the guy, too. If the players thought for a minute ZT was sticking a knife in Dalton’s back to save his own ass, or “deflect blame,” which doesn’t track either, by the way, they were already in shitsville, what was there to gain?- if the players thought the same thing you’re insinuating, they would have come apart at the seams.

 

I just don’t understand why you believe this. And I don’t get why, either? What’s it helping?

He clearly knew it was a lost season and wanted to see what he had in Finley as they were going no where.  Dalton had half a season to prove it, along with eight years prior to this one.  Its not hard logic to figure out if you can remove sour puss feelings from it.  My favorite one is, it was his birthday.  Get the fuck outta here.  Theyre grown men.  The one thing i can agree to is that Zac Taylor did not want to go ofer.  I do believe that is the reason why he went back to Dalton.  However, he only did that after seeing Ryan Finley was a complete disaster and does not have NFL ability.  Dalton gave them the best chance to win.  He knew it, the other players knew it, and Zac after those three games of Finley knew it.  I do believe there was pressure on him to go back simply because the players play and want to win.  He made the right decision to go back.  If anything, to me, it proves that he has the ability to check his own decisions and learn from it.  Thats exactly what you want from a coach and fucking humans in general.  

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

Jim Turner may be human garbage but the line improved throughout the year considering the overall lack of talent. The line started the year with its pencilled in LT(X2), and RG gone and their projected center a bust.  You can keep going back to the Turner well to somehow validate Taylor being a terrible coach but it isn’t really true. 

Of course it did.  And of course its not.  

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8 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Jim Turner being human garbage isn't conjecture.  Finley being terrible isn't conjecture.  The 2-14 record definitely isn't conjecture.

 

Your take on the locker room "buying in" & Taylor's amazing leadership on the other hand?

I’ll grant you Turner’s past misdeeds and reputation support your thinking there. That wouldn’t have been my choice for the hire, either.

 

HOWEVER, coming to the conclusion Finley isn’t so good is armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Finley looked really good in the preseason. Neither you nor the coaching staff knew for certain what they had, for you to intimate that they did and they threw him in as a sacrificial lamb is pure conjecture.

 

I haven’t directly touted or espoused Taylor’s leadership, though through the players buying in I understand it might be implicit. Here’s how I know its not conjecture: I listened to post game comments this year, something I haven’t done in years. Dunno why, just did. I listened to Lap and Hoard and their impressions. So, unless every player that commented in favor of ZT was just lying through their teeth, something that players in the waning weeks of a devastatingly poor season don’t generally do, yeah, the players stayed behind this guy to the end. As far as Lap and Hoard, they are homers, but they are third party. They reported many items that would otherwise support what the players were saying.

 

2-14. Yep. It’s bad. MANY teams with a change in leadership take a step back before taking steps forward. I don’t have the time to research, but my generally sports watching impression tells me THIS happens more often than an immediate improvement. And, it’s only what, three losses worse than last season?

 

There, those are my cards. Comparing yours’ to mine, I feel good about the basis for my argument. Your’s still looks awfully flimsy.

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10 minutes ago, thezerawkid said:

I’ll grant you Turner’s past misdeeds and reputation support your thinking there. That wouldn’t have been my choice for the hire, either.

 

HOWEVER, coming to the conclusion Finley isn’t so good is armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Finley looked really good in the preseason. Neither you nor the coaching staff knew for certain what they had, for you to intimate that they did and they threw him in as a sacrificial lamb is pure conjecture.

 

I haven’t directly touted or espoused Taylor’s leadership, though through the players buying in I understand it might be implicit. Here’s how I know its not conjecture: I listened to post game comments this year, something I haven’t done in years. Dunno why, just did. I listened to Lap and Hoard and their impressions. So, unless every player that commented in favor of ZT was just lying through their teeth, something that players in the waning weeks of a devastatingly poor season don’t generally do, yeah, the players stayed behind this guy to the end. As far as Lap and Hoard, they are homers, but they are third party. They reported many items that would otherwise support what the players were saying.

 

2-14. Yep. It’s bad. MANY teams with a change in leadership take a step back before taking steps forward. I don’t have the time to research, but my generally sports watching impression tells me THIS happens more often than an immediate improvement. And, it’s only what, three losses worse than last season?

 

There, those are my cards. Comparing yours’ to mine, I feel good about the basis for my argument. Your’s still looks awfully flimsy.

This is exactly right. Not to mention, they had two losing season prior to last year.  That tells me that its on more than just the coaches.  I feel like the coaches this year were at even more of a disadvantage due to Taylor having to remain on the Rams staff through last years Super  Bowl.  I agree that this franchise shoots itself in the foot alot, but that seems to be beyond the coaches control many times.  Zac was stuck with what he had.  There are pieces on this team that are very talented.  They lost half of their games by one possession.  All things considered, it will be extremely hard for them to fuck up the first pick.  If Burrow is who everyone thinks he is and they just grab some extra pieces to pair with what they have, i believe we will see major improvement next.   

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7 minutes ago, SouthPaw said:

This is exactly right. Not to mention, they had two losing season prior to last year.  That tells me that its on more than just the coaches.  I feel like the coaches this year were at even more of a disadvantage due to Taylor having to remain on the Rams staff through last years Super  Bowl.  I agree that this franchise shoots itself in the foot alot, but that seems to be beyond the coaches control many times.  Zac was stuck with what he had.  There are pieces on this team that are very talented.  They lost half of their games by one possession.  All things considered, it will be extremely hard for them to fuck up the first pick.  If Burrow is who everyone thinks he is and they just grab some extra pieces to pair with what they have, i believe we will see major improvement next.   

Yeah, losing three extra games seems like a bargain for a shot at Burrow.

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The late and greatest HC this franchise has had this side of PB himself, came to the Bengals after a one-year HC 3-8 stint at Indiana. The original Boy Wonder. 

 

He had considerable NFL and coaching experience previously. He worked under two of the all-time greats, as a player and an assistant. He had a "system" when he arrived--born of his own experience, and learning from the greats. Even with that, he had difficulties putting together strings of contending and winning seasons. He had his own QB change in mid-season, where they wanted to "find out what they had" over the franchise all-time leading passer. It was one where he was roundly criticized, or highly praised--the same hypocrites were around back then, as they are today. He was alternatively called "wacky"/"out of his league" and "brilliant". He grew into his position--he made sure he had his assistants for what he wanted to do. For as much as was possible--until later on--he had the cooperation of the FO. We all remember him for 1988 and its magic, but forget about 1987, where he was crap on the bottom of everyone's shoe. He always made sure he was the media frontman and scapegoat--deliberately done so that his players would be shielded from the hate. From player strikes, to Stanley Wilson, to Victoria C, to Paul Daugherty...he was always there to field the derision, and counter-attack. His players "bought into him" and played all-out, because they knew he was behind them.   

 

Attempting a comparison? Not on your life. But, is there a Sam in this Boy Wonder? So far, haven't seen it. Never say never though, which is only fair.     

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This team might be another year away.  Who knows.  If the Taylor led Bengals improve to 7-9 or so next year, there is something to build on.  One thing about that 87' Bengals team, they had a shit ton of one possession losses as well.  They turned those into Wins the following year and the rest is history.  Im not saying Taylor is anything near that.  However, i am saying he needs at least an opportunity with his own ideals and players in place for a full year.  He may turn it into something.  He may not.  Have to wait and see.  Regardless, i know im meshing threads here, but the best way to do that, is to get your quarterback when the opportunity arrives.  Thats exactly what i believe they will do.   This only provide further evidence if "boy wonder" is the one or not.  After a full year and a change at the quarterback position, 1st overall at that, you kind of run yourself out of excuses and options.  Lets all, for the very sake of being a fan of this team, and not for the sake of "being right" hope this all works out.  We've gone too long without having something to really root for come playoff time.  Im long overdue, i was 8 in 1988.  

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5 hours ago, thezerawkid said:

I’ll grant you Turner’s past misdeeds and reputation support your thinking there. That wouldn’t have been my choice for the hire, either.

 

HOWEVER, coming to the conclusion Finley isn’t so good is armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Finley looked really good in the preseason. Neither you nor the coaching staff knew for certain what they had, for you to intimate that they did and they threw him in as a sacrificial lamb is pure conjecture.

 

I haven’t directly touted or espoused Taylor’s leadership, though through the players buying in I understand it might be implicit. Here’s how I know its not conjecture: I listened to post game comments this year, something I haven’t done in years. Dunno why, just did. I listened to Lap and Hoard and their impressions. So, unless every player that commented in favor of ZT was just lying through their teeth, something that players in the waning weeks of a devastatingly poor season don’t generally do, yeah, the players stayed behind this guy to the end. As far as Lap and Hoard, they are homers, but they are third party. They reported many items that would otherwise support what the players were saying.

 

2-14. Yep. It’s bad. MANY teams with a change in leadership take a step back before taking steps forward. I don’t have the time to research, but my generally sports watching impression tells me THIS happens more often than an immediate improvement. And, it’s only what, three losses worse than last season?

 

There, those are my cards. Comparing yours’ to mine, I feel good about the basis for my argument. Your’s still looks awfully flimsy.

 

6-2=4 wins fewer than last year.

 

Maybe you weren't around during the 90s but there is a long Bengals tradition of playing hard the last game or two of the year to give false hope to ownership about the prospects for the following year. It means nothing. Wins down the stretch are meaningful for teams fighting their way into the playoffs. They are meaningless for teams which start 0-8. 

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54 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

6-2=4 wins fewer than last year.

 

Maybe you weren't around during the 90s but there is a long Bengals tradition of playing hard the last game or two of the year to give false hope to ownership about the prospects for the following year. It means nothing. Wins down the stretch are meaningful for teams fighting their way into the playoffs. They are meaningless for teams which start 0-8. 

Okay, I was off by a win. Not a big deal. It doesn’t change my position nor the validity of it. 
 

Why would you make an assumption about how long I’ve been a fan based on me doing simple arithmetic incorrectly? 
 

Come to think of, what are you even getting at here? I was simply saying we had marginally less success than last year and I am generally pleased we secured the first overall pick because of it.

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1 hour ago, thezerawkid said:


 I was simply saying we had marginally less success than last year and I am generally pleased we secured the first overall pick because of it.

 

The first overall pick is the consolation prize for having the shittiest team in the NFL.   I'll certainly take it, but I'm far from "pleased" with the team regressing to tie a franchise low.   

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

The first overall pick is the consolation prize for having the shittiest team in the NFL.   I'll certainly take it, but I'm far from "pleased" with the team regressing to tie a franchise low.   

Well, of course I’d rather we were winning, but when a franchise gives a head coach the boot a fan’s expectation simply shouldn’t be instant success. Sure, you can dream, but odds are, your team is gonna need at least a year or two to get righted.

 

You know all that, right?

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21 minutes ago, thezerawkid said:

Well, of course I’d rather we were winning, but when a franchise gives a head coach the boot a fan’s expectation simply shouldn’t be instant success. Sure, you can dream, but odds are, your team is gonna need at least a year or two to get righted.

 

You know all that, right?

 

I expected them to not go backwards, I don't think that's unreasonable.   So far there's been a whole lot of talk and a whole lot of really shitty football.  

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2 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I expected them to not go backwards, I don't think that's unreasonable.   So far there's been a whole lot of talk and a whole lot of really shitty football.  

Well, I’m sure I’m not the first, and likely won’t be the last, to say that your expectations were likely unrealistic.

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15 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I expected them to not go backwards..

even after all of the injuries? no LT and no AJ Green and you thought they'd go further?

 

what changed from a talent standpoint from last years 6 win team? now take away Glenn/Williams and AJ.

 

you knew what they did/didn't do from a roster standpoint going into the season, why would you expect them to be better? that makes no sense.

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1 minute ago, thezerawkid said:

Well, I’m sure I’m not the first, and likely won’t be the last, to say that your expectations were likely unrealistic.

 

They'd won 6 games the year before.   You're saying expecting to at least match that was unrealistic?   What's a realistic expectation for next year then?  Is 3 wins out of the question?

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7 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

They'd won 6 games the year before.   You're saying expecting to at least match that was unrealistic?   What's a realistic expectation for next year then?  Is 3 wins out of the question?

New coaching staff, decimated offensive line, a guy who is new to head coaching in the NFL?
 

Yep, that’s literally what I was saying.

 

I’m actually one of the more optimistic fans on this board, truly, but, being a Reds and Hoosiers basketball fan has taught me pragmatism.

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1 minute ago, thezerawkid said:

New coaching staff, decimated offensive line, a guys who is new to head coaching in the NFL?
 

Yep, that’s literally what I was saying.

 

I’m actually one of the more optimistic fans on this board, truly, but, being a Reds and Hoosiers basketball fan has taught me pragmatism.

 

Expecting a rookie draft pick to fix all that was foolish.   I'm also not giving them a pass when guys who get injured every season are once again injured for the season.  

 

They just tied the worst season in Bengals history.  Last time this happened the HC got fired.  Somehow this HC is entirely blameless?  I don't get it.

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