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12 minutes ago, spicoli said:

Where does Dalton rank with the rest of the NFL when it comes to batted down passes? I’m guessing middle of the pack. I see passes being knocked down in every single game I watch. It doesn’t really seem to me that Dalton gets it any more or less than the rest of them. I have no idea though. I’d like to see that data. 

Not sure.  Interesting question though.  I was just reflecting on the fact that it seemed to be an issue in his game coming out. It never went away in the pros.  

 

I realize it was at the college level, but what really strikes me about Burrow's game, is his ability to create angles to open up better passing windows on his throws while in the pocket.  

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1 hour ago, SouthPaw said:

Not sure.  Interesting question though.  I was just reflecting on the fact that it seemed to be an issue in his game coming out. It never went away in the pros.  

 

I realize it was at the college level, but what really strikes me about Burrow's game, is his ability to create angles to open up better passing windows on his throws while in the pocket.  

And great pocket presence, and when he does scramble his eyes are downfield. 

 

And do we have to even mention he is cool as ice in big games compared to Mr. Crappy pants?

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I’m gonna say good thing. I know we all like to see the worst in everything but there was plenty of regular season success here not long ago - And while Hubbard is here since then, ties to the club that cuts through the woe is everything narrative are a good thing.

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2 hours ago, spicoli said:

Where does Dalton rank with the rest of the NFL when it comes to batted down passes? I’m guessing middle of the pack. I see passes being knocked down in every single game I watch. It doesn’t really seem to me that Dalton gets it any more or less than the rest of them. I have no idea though. I’d like to see that data. 

Maybe it had more to do with this:  Offensive line rankings past 3 years.  Not one of our players with over 500 snaps graded in the top half of the league this year. 

 

2019.  30. CINCINNATI BENGALS
The Bengals are on the clock, which is to say that they didn’t have a whole lot of things that went their way this season. The offensive line was not an exception. The overall grades of the players to play 500 or more snaps on the line were: Trey Hopkins (62.8), Bobby Hart (57.7), John Miller (58.6), Michael Jordan (43.1), and Billy Price (41.8). None of those marks ranked among the top 50% of players at their respective positions. The Bengals will need Jonah Williams and whatever other reinforcements they add this offseason to step up and keep Joe Burrow safe in 2020.

 

2018. 27. CINCINNATI BENGALS

Cordy Glenn and Billy Price were supposed to come in and fix the Bengals' reeling offensive line this season, but both came in and fell victim to what might be a cursed unit. Glenn had the lowest-graded season of his career at 60.9 overall, and he gave up a career-high 36 pressures. Price didn’t fare any better with a 49.4 overall grade in a season marred with injury.

 

2017. 28. CINCINNATI BENGALS

Prior to the 2017 season, the Bengals chose not to retain free agents Andrew Whitworth and Kevin Zeitler. That decision came back to bite them during the season as Cincinnati’s offensive line heavily struggled in 2017. The Bengals had 10 different offensive linemen play at least 80 snaps and all 10 of them gave up at least one sack. However, Cincinnati’s struggles were not limited only to pass protection. The Bengals averaged just 3.17 yards (and 0.93 yards before contact) on outside zone runs, which was the fifth-lowest in the NFL and the third-lowest among teams that used this concept at least 100 times.
 

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31 minutes ago, membengal said:

I’m gonna say good thing. I know we all like to see the worst in everything but there was plenty of regular season success here not long ago - And while Hubbard is here since then, ties to the club that cuts through the woe is everything narrative are a good thing.

 

Posted as much a couple of times over the season but Hubbard had some really nice games overshadowed by losing.  8.5 sacks, played 80% of defensive snaps.. A few more wins and/or a different club & he would've been in the Pro Bowl conversation.

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25 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Posted as much a couple of times over the season but Hubbard had some really nice games overshadowed by losing.  8.5 sacks, played 80% of defensive snaps.. A few more wins and/or a different club & he would've been in the Pro Bowl conversation.

The best players this team has picked up in the last 4 years are 2 second rounders (Boyd and Mixon), 1 3rd (Hubbard)  a 4th (Billings) and  a 7th (Tate). The rest of the draft has been below average or just plain sucked particularly if you consider draft position. 

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5 minutes ago, SF2 said:

The best players this team has picked up in the last 4 years are 2 second rounders (Boyd and Mixon), 1 3rd (Hubbard)  a 4th (Billings) and  a 7th (Tate). The rest of the draft has been below average or just plain sucked particularly if you consider draft position. 

 

It's weird how Tobin & the team in general act blissfully unaware of this.  Again, for a team talking about changing the culture they seem awfully averse to doing the things necessary to make that happen.  Holding people accountable for their repeated & critical mistakes would go a long way in that direction.

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57 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

It's weird how Tobin & the team in general act blissfully unaware of this.  Again, for a team talking about changing the culture they seem awfully averse to doing the things necessary to make that happen.  Holding people accountable for their repeated & critical mistakes would go a long way in that direction.

I think they are fully aware of it - they know full well that all other teams have twice or more the resources in the scouting area. In order to attempt to analyze all draft eligible and pro players available (via trade, FA or practice squad) to a team to the same degree others do with half the resources is not possible, so corners are cut and less analysis is done on players. The draft results speak for themselves, especially over the last few years. Not to mention that there is no evidence the current scouts we do have are any good compared to others in the league. 

 

Mikey does not even hold himself accountable so how can he make others accountable?

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Eh, they have had some very good drafts in the past and drafted some great players in rounds you wouldnt have expected (i.e. Geno Atkins, Hubbard, Pratt, Tate, Bates, Billings, Dunlap).  They have definitely not gotten it done over the past 4+, so that has to change.  I am willing to wait and see what the difference will be with this staff having a full off season to bring some of their players (i.e. Joe Burrow) before i denounce them.  I believe they started demonstrating some accountability, at least from the coaching staff, this year with how they managed the roster and got rid of some players (i.e. Preston Brown) in favor of getting young ones involved (Germaine Pratt).  It can certainly be argued that the handling of Andy during mid season was a misstep with hindsight always being 20/20.  However, i along with most others, understand why they took that approach.  It ended up backfiring, but Dalton is a solid pro and a way above average human being, so he took it stride and handled it like a professional should.  Other than that, i saw some things that i liked.  The line improved over the second half, particularly in the run game.  The defense, particularly linebacker and defensive line play, got much better throughout the course of the second half.  This team has some pieces.  This draft, along with the health/contractual issues (Green, Jonah, and a slew of others) with the possibility of bringing in at minimum a second tier lineman or linebacker could go a long way.  I am pretty excited for this upcoming season.  

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2 hours ago, SF2 said:

Maybe it had more to do with this:  Offensive line rankings past 3 years.  Not one of our players with over 500 snaps graded in the top half of the league this year. 

 

2019.  30. CINCINNATI BENGALS
The Bengals are on the clock, which is to say that they didn’t have a whole lot of things that went their way this season. The offensive line was not an exception. The overall grades of the players to play 500 or more snaps on the line were: Trey Hopkins (62.8), Bobby Hart (57.7), John Miller (58.6), Michael Jordan (43.1), and Billy Price (41.8). None of those marks ranked among the top 50% of players at their respective positions. The Bengals will need Jonah Williams and whatever other reinforcements they add this offseason to step up and keep Joe Burrow safe in 2020.

 

2018. 27. CINCINNATI BENGALS

Cordy Glenn and Billy Price were supposed to come in and fix the Bengals' reeling offensive line this season, but both came in and fell victim to what might be a cursed unit. Glenn had the lowest-graded season of his career at 60.9 overall, and he gave up a career-high 36 pressures. Price didn’t fare any better with a 49.4 overall grade in a season marred with injury.

 

2017. 28. CINCINNATI BENGALS

Prior to the 2017 season, the Bengals chose not to retain free agents Andrew Whitworth and Kevin Zeitler. That decision came back to bite them during the season as Cincinnati’s offensive line heavily struggled in 2017. The Bengals had 10 different offensive linemen play at least 80 snaps and all 10 of them gave up at least one sack. However, Cincinnati’s struggles were not limited only to pass protection. The Bengals averaged just 3.17 yards (and 0.93 yards before contact) on outside zone runs, which was the fifth-lowest in the NFL and the third-lowest among teams that used this concept at least 100 times.
 

Don't batted down passes usually result from a dlineman failing to get penetration? 

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1 hour ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I think they are fully aware of it - they know full well that all other teams have twice or more the resources in the scouting area. In order to attempt to analyze all draft eligible and pro players available (via trade, FA or practice squad) to a team to the same degree others do with half the resources is not possible, so corners are cut and less analysis is done on players. The draft results speak for themselves, especially over the last few years. Not to mention that there is no evidence the current scouts we do have are any good compared to others in the league. 

 

Mikey does not even hold himself accountable so how can he make others accountable?

 

And yet, whenever he's asked about the paucity of scouts, Brown claims the Bengals have the same information other teams do. I don't believe that if our scouts are only visiting a campus once or twice a season.

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5 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

And yet, whenever he's asked about the paucity of scouts, Brown claims the Bengals have the same information other teams do. I don't believe that if our scouts are only visiting a campus once or twice a season.

 

It's not access to information that's in question, it's whether they have people able to make sense of it.  

 

If he & the rest of the Bengals FO were half as good at football things as they are at prevaricating they might've won something in the past 50 years.

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2 hours ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I think they are fully aware of it - they know full well that all other teams have twice or more the resources in the scouting area. In order to attempt to analyze all draft eligible and pro players available (via trade, FA or practice squad) to a team to the same degree others do with half the resources is not possible, so corners are cut and less analysis is done on players. The draft results speak for themselves, especially over the last few years. Not to mention that there is no evidence the current scouts we do have are any good compared to others in the league. 

 

Mikey does not even hold himself accountable so how can he make others accountable?

Mike Brown holds himself very accountable....for the bottom line.  I am sure he knows very well that hiring extra scouts could have a slight positive effect on the quality of players, but he also knows it may cost him profits.  Mike Brown is a terrible GM if you consider winning the bar, but if you consider profits as the ultimate measuring stick he's an excellent GM.

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3 hours ago, bfine said:

Don't batted down passes usually result from a dlineman failing to get penetration? 

Actually, it is when the get closer to the QB and then put their hands up.  Its easier to pass over a lineman 7 yards away, not as easy to do so when they are 3 yards away.  It is why Dunlop gets so many blocks, he gets close and at last second puts his really long arms up. 

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I have never been that impressed with Tobin.  Sure he gets some hits in the draft but you can throw darts at the board and get some hits to.  I have not been that impressed with his total roster building.    I know Tobin gets a lot of credit for the playoff years but looking back I still think the Bengals started improving when Zimmer came in and started declining after he left.

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5 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

Mike Brown holds himself very accountable....for the bottom line.  I am sure he knows very well that hiring extra scouts could have a slight positive effect on the quality of players, but he also knows it may cost him profits.  Mike Brown is a terrible GM if you consider winning the bar, but if you consider profits as the ultimate measuring stick he's an excellent GM.

I dont want to re-hash this but he is even a terrible GM by profit standards. The Stealers make over twice the annual income the Bengals do because they invest in the product and brand. Mikey just milks the system and takes minimal risks to ensure he earns aan annual amount. 

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4 hours ago, SF2 said:

Actually, it is when the get closer to the QB and then put their hands up.  Its easier to pass over a lineman 7 yards away, not as easy to do so when they are 3 yards away.  It is why Dunlop gets so many blocks, he gets close and at last second puts his really long arms up. 

I actually don't see too many dlinemen breaking through the oline with their hands in the air to knock down a pass. They're usually using their hands to get the blocker off them. It seems to be the ones that get stalemated at the LOS that put their hands up. Of course I could be seeing it wrong.  

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18 minutes ago, bfine said:

I actually don't see too many dlinemen breaking through the oline with their hands in the air to knock down a pass. They're usually using their hands to get the blocker off them. It seems to be the ones that get stalemated at the LOS that put their hands up. Of course I could be seeing it wrong.  

There is an old DL adage, if you cant get to the QB get your hands up. Plus sometimes the DL are just pocket containing and not rushing so to speak  especially with the quick hitting plays

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1 hour ago, bfine said:

I actually don't see too many dlinemen breaking through the oline with their hands in the air to knock down a pass. They're usually using their hands to get the blocker off them. It seems to be the ones that get stalemated at the LOS that put their hands up. Of course I could be seeing it wrong.  

 

Even the defenders who don't beat their blockers are still several yards behind the line of scrimmage. Blockers are happy to concede ground as long as it's not straight toward where they think the QB is. 

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49 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Even the defenders who don't beat their blockers are still several yards behind the line of scrimmage. Blockers are happy to concede ground as long as it's not straight toward where they think the QB is. 

I get all of this and as I said: beating your olineman is not the time to put your hands in the air. like you just don't care. The time to do it is when you didn't beat your man.

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8 hours ago, bfine said:

I get all of this and as I said: beating your olineman is not the time to put your hands in the air. like you just don't care. The time to do it is when you didn't beat your man.

The issue with our weak ass line is they were being pushed back into the pocket on too many occasions. Does not mean they were beat ratherthe blocker was giving up ground. Price was the worst.  The lineman are looking at the QB, when his arm goes back to throw is when their hand goes up.  They don't rush with their hands in the air. 

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6 hours ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I dont want to re-hash this but he is even a terrible GM by profit standards. The Stealers make over twice the annual income the Bengals do because they invest in the product and brand. Mikey just milks the system and takes minimal risks to ensure he earns aan annual amount. 

 The Stealers paid over $40M more in player salaries than the Bengals last season.  I saw a revenue chart of all the NFL teams briefly, then it was behind a paywall, and the difference $439M for the Stealers and $380M for the Bengals.  I think it's safe to expect the Stealers other expenses are higher than the Bengals as well.  No chance they make double the income of the Bengals. 

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4 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 The Stealers paid over $40M more in player salaries than the Bengals last season.  I saw a revenue chart of all the NFL teams briefly, then it was behind a paywall, and the difference $439M for the Stealers and $380M for the Bengals.  I think it's safe to expect the Stealers other expenses are higher than the Bengals as well.  No chance they make double the income of the Bengals. 

The Forbes list of NFL franchise values showed double the income and about $1B more in franchise value. 

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