* ROUND 1, BENGALS SELECT JOE BURROW, QB */Burrow Era

[bfine]

3 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

Not saying this to defend the Bengal's O-Line which we all know needs to improve. Having said that, I think this shows that a great QB can help make up for the deficiencies of an O-Line and I think Burrow could not only survive, but thrive with even a modestly improved O-Line instead of a totally revamped one.

Arguably the best interior olineman in the history of the NFL (Bruce Matthews) once said:

 

An oline makes a RB better. A QB makes an Oline better.

[T-Dub]

Not quite 30 pages in and Burrow is now fixing our OL on top of everything else.  Classic. 

 

 

[UncleEarl]

17 hours ago, T-Dub said:

Not quite 30 pages in and Burrow is now fixing our OL on top of everything else.  Classic. 

 

 

A QB that reads defenses faster certainly helps an OL.  A QB who is mobile and can throw on the run certainly helps an OL.  A QB that locks in on a receiver, holds the ball too long, and is inaccurrate on the run makes an OL look bad.  Not really that hard to understand.

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, UncleEarl said:

A QB that reads defenses faster certainly helps an OL.  A QB who is mobile and can throw on the run certainly helps an OL.  A QB that locks in on a receiver, holds the ball too long, and is inaccurrate on the run makes an OL look bad.  Not really that hard to understand.

 

🙄

 

Dalton had the 2nd-fastest release in the NFL behind Brady.  

 

I think it's hilarious how Taylor benching him managed to convince everyone that Dalton was the problem.  Our OL sucks ass and will continue to suck ass no matter who is under center.  There is only one way to improve it, and that's by replacing the shitty players with good ones.  That's it.  It's no great mystery.

[bfine]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

🙄

 

Dalton had the 2nd-fastest release in the NFL behind Brady.  

 

I think it's hilarious how Taylor benching him managed to convince everyone that Dalton was the problem.  Our OL sucks ass and will continue to suck ass no matter who is under center.  There is only one way to improve it, and that's by replacing the shitty players with good ones.  That's it.  It's no great mystery.

Dalton finishing 26th in passer rating in 2018 and dead last in 2019 convinced me Dalton is a problem. What I think is truly hilarious is folks thinking a QB cannot make an oline better. Oh that and folks pointing to "quick release"; as if that 49/100th of a second between fastest and slowest matters. 

[T-Dub]

23 minutes ago, bfine said:

Dalton finishing 26th in passer rating in 2018 and dead last in 2019 convinced me Dalton is a problem. 

 

Which of course had nothing at all to do with playing behind arguably the worst OL in the league.  Keep telling yourself that.    That must be why the team went on such a winning streak once they benched that bum, right?  Oh wait...

 

Quote

Oh that and folks pointing to "quick release"; as if that 49/100th of a second between fastest and slowest matters. 

 

Right, that only matters if it's Joe Burrow. 

[bfine]

33 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Which of course had nothing at all to do with playing behind arguably the worst OL in the league.  Keep telling yourself that.    That must be why the team went on such a winning streak once they benched that bum, right?  Oh wait...

 

 

Right, that only matters if it's Joe Burrow. 

As to Andy getting benched. The only fair comparison would be how each performed against a common opponent and fortunately we have 1 (Pittsburgh)

Against the Stealers Andy was 21 of 37 for 171 yards 0 TDs, 1 INT and a passer rating of 57.4. He also contributed 8 yards on the ground at 2.7 YPC

Against the Stealers Ryan was 12 of 26 for 198 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT and a passer rating of 84.1. He also chipped in 8 yards on the ground but did so at 4.0 YPC

 

With Andy at the helm the Stealers crushed us by 24 points, with Ryan at the helm the Stealers squeaked out a 6 point come from behind victory. So in short: a 4th RD rookie had a better showing in his 3 ever NFL game then Andy did in his 128th against the same opponent with the same team. 

 

It was after this game by Ryan the Doogie Taylor figured it was a good idea to bring back Andy. In hindsight it was probably best as Ryan was improving well enough that he might have won us more than 2 games. Hell a serviceable QB most likely would have beat Cleveland in our first meeting.

 

As to Burrow: I’m not a Burrow or bust type. I would be open to trading the pick to the Fins for their 3 first rounders, but that doesn’t mean Andy isn’t a terrible NFL starting QB.
 

[T-Dub]

If your argument is that Ryan Finley is a better QB than Dalton you've lost your darmned mind

[bfine]

3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

If your argument is that Ryan Finley is a better QB than Dalton you've lost your darmned mind

Opinions vary. I simply posted stats and facts. But I can guarantee you this: If Ryan would have started all year he would not have ranked lower than dead last in passer rating.  

[I_C_Deadpeople]

Dalton is not the problem or the solution , not sure why guys here are arguing. He needs a lot of help to be good whereas Burrows has potential to be good with less help. And it is potential only at this point. Dalton is 100% known commodity - streaky, poor pocket presence, and his overall play diminishes in bigger games. 100% known and this will not change. Time to move on

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

Dalton is not the problem or the solution , not sure why guys here are arguing. He needs a lot of help to be good whereas Burrows has potential to be good with less help. And it is potential only at this point. Dalton is 100% known commodity - streaky, poor pocket presence, and his overall play diminishes in bigger games. 100% known and this will not change. Time to move on

 

Oh I'm fine with moving on, it's just this idea that a new QB is going to fix the OL through sheer awesomeness that I disagree with.  It would really suck if they don't bother to build a team around this guy but that's kind of sounding like the plan.

 

[thezerawkid]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

Oh I'm fine with moving on, it's just this idea that a new QB is going to fix the OL through sheer awesomeness that I disagree with.  It would really suck if they don't bother to build a team around this guy but that's kind of sounding like the plan.

 

Sounding like the plan? According to what?

[I_C_Deadpeople]

12 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Oh I'm fine with moving on, it's just this idea that a new QB is going to fix the OL through sheer awesomeness that I disagree with.  It would really suck if they don't bother to build a team around this guy but that's kind of sounding like the plan.

 

I think the meaning is Burrow has better mobility and pocket presence so that 'helps' the OL. I think it helps the entire offense more than the OL. The Inbreds have hopefully figured out that good OL are (a) hard to find and (b) cost premium $$ - so they should draft more of them (not sure how they go about being more successful drafting them but that is another topic). In my mind we need to land 1 very good FA OL and a LB - this would open up the draft. But alas, I have little faith in that. This team will freeze at the outset of FA and pick up more scraps. 

[T-Dub]

10 hours ago, thezerawkid said:

Sounding like the plan? According to what?

How the team has been run for the last 30 years? Recwnt moves like extending Hart & calling him "phenomenal" despite being one of the worst RT's in the league?

 

This team's FO has a very shaky grasp on reality & refuses to admit mistakes, let alone hold anyone accountable for them.

 

What indications have you seen that they're going to do anything differently?  Stop listening to what they say and watch what they do.  Like telling everyone they're going to build a high-character team & then making scumbag Turner one of their first hires.

 

Also, before you start thinking of excuses for those examples, consider how many other examples there are & how they form a pattern of behavior stretching back literal decades. "New Dey" is a catchy slogan but they're still doing things the way they've always done them.

 

Honestly, anyone that's been a fan of this team for more than a week should already know all this so if I sound a little annoyed at having to spell it out it's because I think you know better. The only reason people want to have this argument is so they can try to convince themselves otherwise.

[T-Dub]

36 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I think the meaning is Burrow has better mobility and pocket presence so that 'helps' the OL.

 

Pocket presence is great if you have a pocket.  The few times Dalton saw one of those recently he looked just as surprised by it as anyone.  Burrow's not going to magically avoid untouched pass rushers blowing through our OL like it's not even there.  Nobody would.

 

I understand the draft hype does this to people but this shit is out of control.  If they don't significantly upgrade this OL he will fail, as any QB would.  

 

I swear by the time April rolls around Burrow will be taking over as GM & choreographing the cheerleaders.

[bfine]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

Pocket presence is great if you have a pocket.  The few times Dalton saw one of those recently he looked just as surprised by it as anyone.  Burrow's not going to magically avoid untouched pass rushers blowing through our OL like it's not even there.  Nobody would.

 

I understand the draft hype does this to people but this shit is out of control.  If they don't significantly upgrade this OL he will fail, as any QB would.  

 

I swear by the time April rolls around Burrow will be taking over as GM & choreographing the cheerleaders.

The whole "If Andy can't do it, nobody can" assertion is just folks making things up. In 2018 DeShaun Watson had an absolutely terrible Oline, he was sacked 62 times yet he threw for over 4,000 yards and had a passer rating of 103.1. Last year Russell Wilson led the league by being sack 48 times behind a garbage oline, yet he threw for over 4100 yards and had a passer rating of over 106. He led a team with nothing but a rookie WR to a great season.

 

So in short: Anyone who says "If Andy can't do it, no one can" has their objectivity called into question. 

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, bfine said:

The whole "If Andy can't do it, nobody can" assertion is just folks making things up.

 

 

Making things up.. You mean like how you made up that anyone has said that?  

 

This team has much bigger problems than QB.  Simple.

[bfine]

13 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Making things up.. You mean like how you made up that anyone has said that?  

 

This team has much bigger problems than QB.  Simple.

In the very post I quoted you said: Any QB would fail behind this oline. It's made up, you have 0 idea if any QB (including Joe) could succeed behind this line. I provided to recent examples of QBs doing so. Hell I didn't even mention the rookie last year who tied Russell for most sacks behind a garbage oline and managed a passer rating 10 points higher than Andy and his best WR is a member of the AARP. 

 

Any team that has the worst rated QB in the NFL has a problem at QB and it is their biggest. If we magically got 5 HOF Olinemen then Andy would probably do pretty good behind it, but that ain't happening. What can happen is we have the opportunity to take a QB that just had a college season that has never been matched in the history of college football; yet some will question the pick and stand behind our mediocre QB. 

 

 

[T-Dub]

13 minutes ago, bfine said:

In the very post I quoted you said: Any QB would fail behind this oline. It's made up, you have 0 idea if any QB (including Joe) could succeed behind this line. I provided to recent examples of QBs doing so. Hell I didn't even mention the rookie last year who tied Russell for most sacks behind a garbage oline and managed a passer rating 10 points higher than Andy and his best WR is a member of the AARP. 

 

Any team that has the worst rated QB in the NFL has a problem at QB and it is their biggest. If we magically got 5 HOF Olinemen then Andy would probably do pretty good behind it, but that ain't happening. What can happen is we have the opportunity to take a QB that just had a college season that has never been matched in the history of college football; yet some will question the pick and stand behind our mediocre QB. 

 

 

 

I'd say Andy did pretty damned well behind a slightly less shitty OL.  Obviously he tended to melt down once we got there but making the postseason 5 years in a row doesn't happen with a garbage QB.  I also think it's clear the entire team melted down in those situations, and while that does fall on a lack of leadership I think it went a lot deeper than QB.

 

I mean, at this point I'm just repeating myself but I think benching him convinced everyone that a new QB is going to come in here and turn it all around, and that seems incredibly foolish to me given the circumstances.  If I'm wrong about that, great, but I suspect that even if the losing continues this franchise won't make the major changes that are necessary.  

 

To put it another way, let's say you're right and Burrow can play well while taking 50+ sacks a year.  How long do you think he's going to stay healthy, enduring a beating like that?  Those examples you gave are statistical outliers.  Wilson for example;  you wouldn't say that talent is being wasted? 

 

Last thing I think any of us want to see is a generational talent sitting on IR because our bullshit ownership doesn't want to invest in correcting a series of mistakes on the OL, or a complete & total lack of a defense behind some standout defensive linemen, not to mention some really questionable playcalling and borderline mutiny in the locker room.  Instead of saying "damn these are some great players we've stumbled into, let's get some at least halfassed-average guys around them and we could really do something",  they just shrug it off as good enough & hope to get lucky...  If they even consider it between cashing those fat NFL checks.

 

 So I'll say it yet again:  The problems with this team go much deeper than QB.  Asking Burrow to fix everything wrong here isn't fair to him, let alone realistic.

 

 

[thezerawkid]

7 hours ago, T-Dub said:

How the team has been run for the last 30 years? Recwnt moves like extending Hart & calling him "phenomenal" despite being one of the worst RT's in the league?

 

This team's FO has a very shaky grasp on reality & refuses to admit mistakes, let alone hold anyone accountable for them.

 

What indications have you seen that they're going to do anything differently?  Stop listening to what they say and watch what they do.  Like telling everyone they're going to build a high-character team & then making scumbag Turner one of their first hires.

 

Also, before you start thinking of excuses for those examples, consider how many other examples there are & how they form a pattern of behavior stretching back literal decades. "New Dey" is a catchy slogan but they're still doing things the way they've always done them.

 

Honestly, anyone that's been a fan of this team for more than a week should already know all this so if I sound a little annoyed at having to spell it out it's because I think you know better. The only reason people want to have this argument is so they can try to convince themselves otherwise.

If it’s such a task, responding to me, if I’m so exhausting, why respond?

 

As a a matter of fact, bigger, more important question: why do you even bother? Being a fan, that is? 
 

Seriously, I’ve read enough of your perspective, we’ve gotten in enough dust ups, I can thoroughly predict your response to nearly everything. If, because this franchise has been absolutely putrid for the balance of the previous thirty years, something that actually isn’t accurate, why do you bother to follow them? Why do you proactively expend your time and energy coming on here a pissing and moaning every time people exchange meaningfully optimistic conjecture about things that might make a positive difference? 
 

Your spin is always supported by the most extreme examples of sky is falling shit. If that’s ALL you’re able to compartmentalize from, say, 2002, what is even the point? If the outcome of this season, and everyone one thereafter, is preordained to be a disappointing pile of horse shit, why do you even care to comment?

 

Seriously, what’s the point of fandom if not to have some modicum of hope towards a team? 
 

I’m not going to bother talking details with you because we’ve done that. I always do more than enough to hold my own and push back against your negative drivel. I’ll simply leave my larger inquiry and indictment of your commitment here. Feel free to pass on talking specifics with me about the Bengals, based on your response to me, I wear you out as much as you do me.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

5 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Making things up.. You mean like how you made up that anyone has said that?  

 

This team has much bigger problems than QB.  Simple.

This team has many problems including QB

[T-Dub]

3 hours ago, thezerawkid said:

If it’s such a task, responding to me, if I’m so exhausting, why respond?

 

As a a matter of fact, bigger, more important question: why do you even bother? Being a fan, that is? 
 

 

 

 

blahblah ad hominem bullshit trolling, tl;dr.. just put me on ignore, i dgaf

 

 

[T-Dub]

55 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

This team has many problems including QB

 

Yeah they burned that bridge when they sent him to the bench...  and then they ran him back out there! Comedy...

 

Taylor was just playing 4d chess though.. Who are we kidding?

[Sox]

10 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Yeah they burned that bridge when they sent him to the bench...  and then they ran him back out there! Comedy...

 

Taylor was just playing 4d chess though.. Who are we kidding?

Do you have an actual point? Asking for a friend. 

[T-Dub]

18 minutes ago, Sox said:

Do you have an actual point? Asking for a friend. 

 

That when a new head coach benches the veteran starter midway through a winless season it's pretty clear they intend to bring in a new one.,  

 

Also that the excuse that they were tanking & not just losing is pretty funny