claptonrocks Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, bengaled said: Even that scenario has concerns and sheds light on the extent of our OL problems. Spain is a career backup, much as Sua Filo is, both at left guard and neither have any business being plugged in at right guard. But yeah, given all the team's OL problems he is the best current solution. Spain has never been a backup.. He's started 74 of 79 games in his career.. Turner played musical chairs with Q and Adenijji last year.. Stick Spain at RG and he ll be allright.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 2 hours ago, spicoli said: The fact that you believe taking Sewell is the only way to keep that from happening just seems crazy to me. Perhaps it does, but conversely the fact that you, and so many like you, disregard the importance of his well being to this franchise's success seems absolutely insane to me. That I generally see things through the same glasses as you, though certainly not on this point, confuses the living hell out of me. Is a 3rd wide receiver all that important to you....really? No matter how I try, and yeah I have tried, I just can't grasp that. Carson Palmer said as well as it needed to be said the other day. Joe Burrow is so damned good he doesn't need the Jamal Chase's of the world to be successful. There are plenty of guys in this draft who could be available options to fill the role of what we need, which is a speed wideout that is good at getting separation. Hell, Jamal Chase as great as he is isn't even that. He thrives on contested catches. Picking him at #5 is a luxury this team can't afford. I think it would be a stupid move to make, given the history and actual status of this OL. If ever there was a time to reinvest in an upper tier LT, that time is now. We KNOW it will never happen in free agency...never in a million fucking years. The history of this teams ways of operation are all anyone should need for evidence of that fact. Also, your plan involves a level of trust in Tobin evaluating latter round OL talent. Where does that come from? Certainly you know what a piss poor history this organization has had in evaluating latter round talent. Why would you put all your "Joe Burrow Eggs" in that basket this draft? Really, you believe that highly in Tobin, the guy that runs the show? This mindset has me baffled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 2 hours ago, claptonrocks said: Spain has never been a backup.. He's started 74 of 79 games in his career.. Turner played musical chairs with Q and Adenijji last year.. Stick Spain at RG and he ll be allright.. Spain has no business being a right guard and if you look at his grades that's not where he performs well, either. There's a reason for that...why that difference in his scores are so extreme. Look at his grades from last year there. They certainly aren't anything we should feel comfortable with. He's not the answer there. Sorry, but I am not going to fall into that trap. However, I would feel quite comfortable starting Spain at left guard and feel that's where he performs well and truly belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, bengaled said: Perhaps it does, but conversely the fact that you, and so many like you, disregard the importance of his well being to this franchise's success seems absolutely insane to me Well mostly for me it’s the fact that I’ve always believed Chase is their guy...so however I might feel about the OL it’s pretty much moot until at least day 2 of the draft. There’s also the fact that I want them to get the very best player they can possibly get...and in this draft, in my opinion, that’s one of Pitts or Chase at 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duluoz Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 2 hours ago, bengaled said: Expecting middle of the pack offensive linemen to fill the void scares me even more, especially after the debacle that last year was. Joe Burrow writhing in pain and being carted off the field should be your main fear. I get your point, but I think Sewell has been hyped and is not worth the price of a #5 pick. Grab Ja'Marr Chase and get a very solid OT in Round 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 1 minute ago, spicoli said: Well mostly for me it’s the fact that I’ve always believed Chase is their guy...so however I might feel about the OL it’s pretty much moot until at least day 2 of the draft. There’s also the fact that I want them to get the very best player they can possibly get...and in this draft, in my opinion, that’s one of Pitts or Chase at 5. We can CERTAINLY agree to disagree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Duluoz said: I get your point, but I think Sewell has been hyped and is not worth the price of a #5 pick. Grab Ja'Marr Chase and get a very solid OT in Round 2. Name that player for me and convince me, because for what I think the team needs, I don't see him there. I think we need a successor at left tackle, who also has enough ass to play right guard for this year. I have never felt Jonah Williams filled that role adequately and is only average at best. This doesn't even address his injury history, of which he has never come close to playing a full season for us. With that in mind, do you really have a lot of trust in this team resigning him? If so, what part of their history is this based upon? Reiff is here on a one year rental deal, as he waits for free agency to resume next year and explode to it's normal pace. What part of this team's spending history gives you any comfort they would ever attempt to resign him? What's left in the cupboard after that...Akeem Adeneji? Regarding Sewell: there are more respected minds who think he'll be successful, than those who don't...including a virtual who's who of former great Bengal players, who are almost unanimous in supporting Sewell at #5. Do you think perhaps these guys are all wrong, and your fears are right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 32 minutes ago, bengaled said: Do you think perhaps these guys are all wrong, and your fears are right? Yes 😗 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claptonrocks Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 Just now, spicoli said: Yes 😗 Lol...hardhead.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claptonrocks Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 1 hour ago, bengaled said: Spain has no business being a right guard and if you look at his grades that's not where he performs well, either. There's a reason for that...why that difference in his scores are so extreme. Look at his grades from last year there. They certainly aren't anything we should feel comfortable with. He's not the answer there. Sorry, but I am not going to fall into that trap. However, I would feel quite comfortable starting Spain at left guard and feel that's where he performs well and truly belongs. Your right.. Spain is a LG and a good one imo.. So by that id go. Sewell and Spain on left side with Jonah and Reiff on right ( who plays G or RT to be determined).. Id endorse that scenario.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBR Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 If you really want to make it about not trusting Tobin (he's been with the Bengals since 1999)... 2002 Levi Jones 2009 Andre Smith 2012 Kevin Zeitler 2015 Cedric Ogbuehi 2018 Billy Price 2019 Jonah Williams vs. 2000 Peter Warrick 2011 AJ Green 2017 John Ross I don't remember how involved he was with picking Jones and Warrick, so I'd probably throw those two out. It looks like there's a lot better chance to have him do a good job of picking a great WR than a great OL. What they need desperately on the OL are quality guards and possibly an upgrade at center since the options are a busted up dude (Hopkins) and Billy Price. Show me a right guard or a center worth the 5th selection and projecting Sewell to RG isn't a sure fire thing. Stop acting like there aren't any weaknesses to his game: - Played for Oregon and rarely took the sort of pass sets he will in the NFL - Played well against a lot of crappy DEs in the PAC-12 (best DE he faced off against was on his own team) - Missed last 6 games of his freshman season (he started first 7) due to an ankle injury. Played his 13 out of 14 games his sophomore season (really well though) and sat out his junior season due to Covid. Points to a serious lack of experience / maturity as a player. He knows it's an issue which is why he recently started to train as a right tackle. - Lacks power, strength, and a mean streak according to some analysts - Short arms for a LT (I think this is overblown) TBH, I think he's going to be a good player but Slater sounds like the safer pick between the two. Sewell has more potential and is 1 1/2 years younger though. The big question is whether that sophomore season is convincing enough to take him at 5 compared to what Chase did. I'm good as long as they take Chase or Sewell and regardless of which one they take, I'm hoping they hit OL again in 2nd or 3rd round to grab the interior guys that they desperately need to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_C_Deadpeople Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Duluoz said: I get your point, but I think Sewell has been hyped and is not worth the price of a #5 pick. Grab Ja'Marr Chase and get a very solid OT in Round 2. What we don’t and can’t know is Pollards thoughts on Sewell and the separation between Sewell and those available after round 1. If, as noted above, Sewell is a great prospect but not elite then it may well be Chase or Pitts is the right move. The success of this team will not be based on one specific draft pick going forward- we have to land a much higher percentage of picks then we have been prior to 2020 AND we need to keep filling holes with Free Agents. And they can still improve the OL via FA post draft. I am no fan of Dufus Tobin but I agree with those who think Chase is already the pick so we have to look elsewhere for OL additions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HavePityPlease Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Duluoz said: I get your point, but I think Sewell has been hyped and is not worth the price of a #5 pick. Grab Ja'Marr Chase and get a very solid OT in Round 2. I'd agree with this if our OL wasn't both lacking healthy starting talent *and* lacking any sort of depth at all. Yes if we upgrade guard I'm happier with what we have as backup but I don't like the backup tackles. And while we're talking about what "scares" us - the Chiefs just traded the #31 and a bunch of mid round picks to the Ravens for Orlando Brown. That tells me they *don't* think there'll be a solid OT available even at the end of round one. If we want to argue about the fact the Chiefs are in "win now" mode and want known quantities over potential - that's fair. Hell, I wish the Bengals would do more of that instead of relying on the draft. But since that's the boat we're in they should go for the best possible "potential" linemen they can, that's been my point this whole time. To clarify again, I'm on team "trade down and stockpile", and only because we have so many holes and didn't do enough in FA to address it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 4 hours ago, claptonrocks said: Sewell would earn 29mil over his first 4yrs drafted at 5.. Long time before he ll negotiate for a longterm deal.. About who wants to play where for a big contract.. Theyll play where Pollack inserts them.. And if Polllack plays him inside or at right tackle it was a wasted pick. It is the 5th pick, not the 37th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 6 hours ago, T-Dub said: Shouldn't be an issue, based on previous attempts I think we can only pretend we already have a high quality left tackle for about 2-3 years before the illusion wears thin. That would give him plenty of time to move over before he hits that fat FA contract. I firmly believe that Jonah Williams can do just as good of a job not playing on either end of the OL. Williams would have played most of the season if it mattered. Once Burrow was gone and the team out of the playoffs, they simply shut him down. 6 hours ago, bengaled said: That's a great one year strategy, if that's what you're looking for out of the draft...a one year solution? It isn’t a one year strategy. If Reiff plays well we extend him. He is on a one year deal due to Covid Salary cap just like a lot of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, bengaled said: We can CERTAINLY agree to disagree on that. Chase and Pitts are likely the numbers two and three players overall in this particular draft behind Lawrence...and both guys will absolutely make this team better. If you don't believe that I just don't know what to tell ya. If there was a defensive guy worth the pick I'd be all for that...but there isn't, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, BBR said: If you really want to make it about not trusting Tobin (he's been with the Bengals since 1999)... 2002 Levi Jones 2009 Andre Smith 2012 Kevin Zeitler 2015 Cedric Ogbuehi 2018 Billy Price 2019 Jonah Williams vs. 2000 Peter Warrick 2011 AJ Green 2017 John Ross I don't remember how involved he was with picking Jones and Warrick, so I'd probably throw those two out. It looks like there's a lot better chance to have him do a good job of picking a great WR than a great OL. What they need desperately on the OL are quality guards and possibly an upgrade at center since the options are a busted up dude (Hopkins) and Billy Price. Show me a right guard or a center worth the 5th selection and projecting Sewell to RG isn't a sure fire thing. Stop acting like there aren't any weaknesses to his game: - Played for Oregon and rarely took the sort of pass sets he will in the NFL - Played well against a lot of crappy DEs in the PAC-12 (best DE he faced off against was on his own team) - Missed last 6 games of his freshman season (he started first 7) due to an ankle injury. Played his 13 out of 14 games his sophomore season (really well though) and sat out his junior season due to Covid. Points to a serious lack of experience / maturity as a player. He knows it's an issue which is why he recently started to train as a right tackle. - Lacks power, strength, and a mean streak according to some analysts - Short arms for a LT (I think this is overblown) TBH, I think he's going to be a good player but Slater sounds like the safer pick between the two. Sewell has more potential and is 1 1/2 years younger though. The big question is whether that sophomore season is convincing enough to take him at 5 compared to what Chase did. I'm good as long as they take Chase or Sewell and regardless of which one they take, I'm hoping they hit OL again in 2nd or 3rd round to grab the interior guys that they desperately need to find. You're putting a knock on him for sitting out last season due to Covid as a lack of maturity? Seriously dude? Were you one of those freaks that stormed the Capitol building, too? What an idiotic statement. Lacks power and strength? What kind of bullshit are you reading from, because I sure as hell know you aren't doing enough due diligence to be watching any tape and making such a brain-dead statement as that. Are you shitting me? I am surprised I am even responding to such bullshit, TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 55 minutes ago, spicoli said: Chase and Pitts are likely the numbers two and three players overall in this particular draft behind Lawrence...and both guys will absolutely make this team better. If you don't believe that I just don't know what to tell ya. If there was a defensive guy worth the pick I'd be all for that...but there isn't, so... I could accept an argument that Pitts is generational and could be a better overall player than Sewell, but not Chase. What is absolutely missing in this conversation is that might work as an overall view for all the league ie...the rest of the league, which I don't think we should be included in the conversation, since we are an organization that holds so many strong standards of operation...standards that don't apply to most of the rest of the teams in the league. Views on how to operate in free agency...the can do's and the absolutely can not do's. What the organization will spend legitimate money on in free agency and what they won't spend money on...no way shape or form. What they will be willing to do in regards to resigning their current stars, and what they won't do. If these factors aren't taken into consideration of the big picture, it's hard to make a player by player assessment and consider all things being equal, because they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 26 minutes ago, bengaled said: because they're not. Well then all of your future Bengals arguments should probably just start and stop there...just sayin 😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duluoz Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 3 hours ago, bengaled said: Name that player for me and convince me, because for what I think the team needs, I don't see him there. I think we need a successor at left tackle, who also has enough ass to play right guard for this year. I have never felt Jonah Williams filled that role adequately and is only average at best. This doesn't even address his injury history, of which he has never come close to playing a full season for us. With that in mind, do you really have a lot of trust in this team resigning him? If so, what part of their history is this based upon? Reiff is here on a one year rental deal, as he waits for free agency to resume next year and explode to it's normal pace. What part of this team's spending history gives you any comfort they would ever attempt to resign him? What's left in the cupboard after that...Akeem Adeneji? Regarding Sewell: there are more respected minds who think he'll be successful, than those who don't...including a virtual who's who of former great Bengal players, who are almost unanimous in supporting Sewell at #5. Do you think perhaps these guys are all wrong, and your fears are right? Granted, there are no Round 2 OTs that are going to be nearly as talented as Sewell. Maybe we'll get super lucky and Rashawn Slater will drop all the way to day 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, SF2 said: And if Polllack plays him inside or at right tackle it was a wasted pick. It is the 5th pick, not the 37th. ...and if he doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Duluoz said: Maybe we'll get super lucky and Rashawn Slater will drop all the way to day 2. Umm...no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, Duluoz said: Granted, there are no Round 2 OTs that are going to be nearly as talented as Sewell. Maybe we'll get super lucky and Rashawn Slater will drop all the way to day 2. Umm... no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, SF2 said: Williams would have played most of the season if it mattered. Once Burrow was gone and the team out of the playoffs, they simply shut him down. It isn’t a one year strategy. If Reiff plays well we extend him. He is on a one year deal due to Covid Salary cap just like a lot of players. Bullshit, what makes you think the Bengals would ever enter into the expected $14-16M range (or greater) that it will take to sign someone like Reiff next year....past history? This is just wishful, fanboy thinking on your part. I'm sure you don't really believe that shit, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicoli Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 1 minute ago, bengaled said: This is just wishful, fanboy thinking on your part. I'm sure you don't really believe that shit, do you? I mean they have been dishing out some pretty sweet moolah of late...have they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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