Passive Playcalling

[UncleEarl]

1 hour ago, HavePityPlease said:

This is all a continuation of what we've seen from Taylor and crew for their entire tenure.  I totally agree that they're not playing to strengths and mitigating weaknesses, which was the best argument in *support* of Anarumo the previous two seasons - maybe he didn't have the personnel for this scheme?...  To me that's not a great excuse because you're never likely to have an ideal set of starters, but it seems now that Anarumo has been able to assemble 100% of his own crew it's all falling into place.   

 

It seems clear enough we don't have the personnel for Taylor's scheme, at least not on the OL, and as per my earlier statement he just seems to stubbornly push ahead with his game plans regardless of the personnel and their ability to execute it.  Like Anarumo he needs to find the guys that can do this shit or accept reality and pare it down to what works.  This is why I thought the execution of the latter half of game one was smart, as well as the basic idea of playing under center.  If it's partially because Joe's lobbying for the 5-receiver sets - sorry bud, we don't have the horses to do it right now - if you want to win we have to do it in other ways.

 

Maybe because Taylor isn't very good?  Take a look at his coaching experience.  He's basically a QB coach.  No one really promoted him or hired him away to be an OC.  Just five games as interim OC in Miami.  How in the hell is this guy a NFL head coach?

 

Year	Age	Level	Employer	Role
2008	25	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2009	26	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2010	27	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2011	28	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2012	29	NFL	Miami Dolphins	Asst. QB Coach
2013	30	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach
2014	31	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach
2015	32	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach/Interim OC
2016	33	College	Cincinnati	Offensive Coordinator/QB
2017	34	NFL	Los Angeles Rams	Assistant Wide Receivers
2018	35	NFL	Los Angeles Rams	Quarterbacks
2019	36	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach
2020	37	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach
2021	38	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach

[I_C_Deadpeople]

The one thing everyone loved about Zimmer as a DC is he made the most out of the players he had. He adjusted to the skills of the payers not the other way aorund.

 

It is bad coaching to keep playing a so-called system without the personnel to fit it. Right now, Taylor's offense reminds me of the Chip Kelly offense in the NFL - just keep pushing the same system out there regardless of lack of personnel or lack of certain skills sets. It makes no sense.

 

If the offense struggles all year, I would expect Taylor to throw Callahan under the bus. Hard to do when you call the plays. And we already have some of the offensive players talking about the shit pay calling. Not good. 

 

Taylor just continues to be very unimpressive. And we had to give the D most of the top of the salary cap in order to give the DC a chance, not good either when you think about it. I did not buy into the high expectations after TC so this is all pretty much what I expected. 

[claptonrocks]

On 9/20/2021 at 4:15 PM, HavePityPlease said:

This is the kind of shit we can't keep hearing after these games:

 

 

For the second week in a row Taylor moved the momentum needle heavily toward the opponent in the name of "being aggressive" when from his perspective (not ours, we already knew) it was stupid in hindsight.  Yeah, if they hit the long ball there everyone's happy and everyone thinks it was a great call; but it's not rocket science:  if the risks outweigh the rewards by that much, you pick a play you trust that has far less of a momentum-changing risk.  If you hit that, you're still being aggressive, you still have a chance at the points, but at least you don't flip the field if it fails.

 

I also agree that it's quite possible these guys are game-planning around the O-line's (significant) limitations.  What an indictment of our offseason, if true...

Outstanding...

[claptonrocks]

4 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Maybe because Taylor isn't very good?  Take a look at his coaching experience.  He's basically a QB coach.  No one really promoted him or hired him away to be an OC.  Just five games as interim OC in Miami.  How in the hell is this guy a NFL head coach?

 

Year	Age	Level	Employer	Role
2008	25	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2009	26	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2010	27	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2011	28	College	Texas A&M	Graduate Assistant
2012	29	NFL	Miami Dolphins	Asst. QB Coach
2013	30	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach
2014	31	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach
2015	32	NFL	Miami Dolphins	QB Coach/Interim OC
2016	33	College	Cincinnati	Offensive Coordinator/QB
2017	34	NFL	Los Angeles Rams	Assistant Wide Receivers
2018	35	NFL	Los Angeles Rams	Quarterbacks
2019	36	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach
2020	37	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach
2021	38	NFL	Cincinnati Bengals	Head Coach

As much as i try to deny it

Taylor isnt an effective HC..

This season he has to make the scheme fit this once again very suspect line.

He better figure it out soon or he may not last this season imho..

 

[NCStripes]

Please help me out here.  The following tweet

 

 

Ben Baby

 

@Ben_Baby

· 6h

A very interesting discrepancy: Even though the Bengals are 7th in Pass Block Win Rate (ESPN/NFL Next Gen), Cincinnati leads the NFL in sacks per dropback 13.8%. Why? All of Joe Burrow's sacks have come after 3 seconds. (NFL Next Gen)

 

This doesn’t sound like an OL problem. 
It could suggest Joe isn’t back as far as I (possibly we) think.

Where does coaching come in here?

 

[BengalFanInTO]

1 hour ago, NCStripes said:

Please help me out here.  The following tweet

 

 

Ben Baby

 

@Ben_Baby

· 6h

A very interesting discrepancy: Even though the Bengals are 7th in Pass Block Win Rate (ESPN/NFL Next Gen), Cincinnati leads the NFL in sacks per dropback 13.8%. Why? All of Joe Burrow's sacks have come after 3 seconds. (NFL Next Gen)

 

This doesn’t sound like an OL problem. 
It could suggest Joe isn’t back as far as I (possibly we) think.

Where does coaching come in here?

 

 

I saw this earlier too and it ties in with some of the thoughts I (and others) have been sharing:

 

Joe holds the ball too long (this isn't really new)

Joe won't throw the ball away when the coverage is too good and/or the play is broken (also not new)

Joe has not been mobile in the pocket (damn near a statue in the Bears game)

 

What I am not certain of is how Ben Baby thinks this pertains to his return after the injury (other than possibly the mobility). Pity had some solid observations on this pointing out that Joe has changed some mechanics coming back from the injury that explain some of this too (including the timing). 

 

Do I think Burrow sucks and/or am I picking on our "guy"? Absolutely not but, these observations are true.

 

Does the Pass Block Win Rate really show that the offensive line isn't a problem? Next Gen stats would like you to believe that. Your eyes will tell you otherwise. If you can find anyone that will tell you that the line has been a Top 10 pass blocking unit for the first two games, get them checked for a head injury.

 

Is coaching scheme an issue and do they need to adapt to where Burrow is and for the talent level of the line and other blockers (RBS/TEs/WRs)? Abso-fucking-lutely!

 

We all have to also realize that despite how awesome he is, Joe Burrow has played 11.5 NFL games and he’s coming back from a serious knee injury (faster than many believed he could). He's got work to do. He's going to be glorious but he's still on his way there.

[membengal]

See the game week chatter thread - goodberry tweeted about this - that discussion is relevant to your question 

[UncleEarl]

How do uncovered rushers factor in to this "win rate."  Particularly in the Minnesota game two of the sacks were from unblocked rushers if I remember correctly. 

[|High School Harry|]

To be fair, I think part of the "passive play calling" is because Mr Burrow is getting his brains beat out every time he drops back to pass.

Digression but... I was unhappy with several uncalled late hits on him in Shitcago but that's just me.

Yeah, would love to see him air it out more to Ja'marr or my current favorite Bengal, Tee Higgins, but that takes a bit of time

for them to get down the field and the route develop.  Which he ain't got.  Time, that is.

But, yeah, throw the ball down the field, Joe.

 

And, I might add, Fuck the Stealers.

[|SF2|]

23 hours ago, Cat said:

Very simple. They just need to go down to the Corey Dillon store and pick up a new rookie model. Or we could maybe look at some OL that might be able to run block?

Of course we would have to stand in line with probably 25 other teams looking for the elusive  “decent free agent offensive lineman still available in September” unicorn.  
 

BTW, Alejandro Villaneuvo had a great game on Monday.  Funny how playing in your ACTUAL position works out in a real game.  

[|SF2|]

16 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Maybe because Taylor isn't very good?  Take a look at his coaching experience.  He's basically a QB coach.   How in the hell is this guy a NFL head coach?

 

Year

[Cat]

10 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Of course we would have to stand in line with probably 25 other teams looking for the elusive  “decent free agent offensive lineman still available in September” unicorn.  
 

BTW, Alejandro Villaneuvo had a great game on Monday.  Funny how playing in your ACTUAL position works out in a real game.  

Seems like this serious deficiency should have been noted a couple of months ago? But like many on here have mentioned, revise the playcalling to - something other than 'Mixon is going to break one eventually - let's keep doing it'

[Jamie_B]

11 hours ago, BengalFanInTO said:

 

I saw this earlier too and it ties in with some of the thoughts I (and others) have been sharing:

 

Joe holds the ball too long (this isn't really new)

Joe won't throw the ball away when the coverage is too good and/or the play is broken (also not new)

Joe has not been mobile in the pocket (damn near a statue in the Bears game)

 

What I am not certain of is how Ben Baby thinks this pertains to his return after the injury (other than possibly the mobility). Pity had some solid observations on this pointing out that Joe has changed some mechanics coming back from the injury that explain some of this too (including the timing). 

 

Do I think Burrow sucks and/or am I picking on our "guy"? Absolutely not but, these observations are true.

 

Does the Pass Block Win Rate really show that the offensive line isn't a problem? Next Gen stats would like you to believe that. Your eyes will tell you otherwise. If you can find anyone that will tell you that the line has been a Top 10 pass blocking unit for the first two games, get them checked for a head injury.

 

Is coaching scheme an issue and do they need to adapt to where Burrow is and for the talent level of the line and other blockers (RBS/TEs/WRs)? Abso-fucking-lutely!

 

We all have to also realize that despite how awesome he is, Joe Burrow has played 11.5 NFL games and he’s coming back from a serious knee injury (faster than many believed he could). He's got work to do. He's going to be glorious but he's still on his way there.

 

 

I remember the year after Brady got hurt, it took him almost a full year to mentally recover and get back to the guy he was. 

 

We may have to accept that it may take Joe some time to be Joe 100% again.

[membengal]

Here’s the Goodberry tweets that touch on the above question:

 

 

 

[membengal]

So, yes, the data matches the eyeball observations - Joe right now at this stage in his post-ACL recovery isn’t as quick to read pressure and move away from it to keep the play Alive. I would expect that would get better as he gets more confidence but it is exacerbating the effect of any pressure he does get.  ZT and Callahan have tried to deal with this by calling more runs. That has been sub-optimal. Not sure it gets any better Sunday. After that the quality of the d-lines they will face goes down for at least a few weeks. 

[NCStripes]

The title of this thread is Passive Play Calling and the trend is to blast Taylor for it.

Based on some of the data that the problem may be Joe isn't back to being Joe yet, it appears to me Taylor understands Joe isn't his old self and adjusted his play calling accordingly.  But what do I know?

[I_C_Deadpeople]

1 hour ago, NCStripes said:

The title of this thread is Passive Play Calling and the trend is to blast Taylor for it.

Based on some of the data that the problem may be Joe isn't back to being Joe yet, it appears to me Taylor understands Joe isn't his old self and adjusted his play calling accordingly.  But what do I know?

This all goes back to the lack of understanding or belief that the team needed to be built from the inside out. The improvements of the DL prove that out but why sign loads of cap monies into the DL when you could have done it with the OL and helped the franchise QB? How would this OL look if we had signed Zeitler and another good OG along with Reiff AND STILL drafted like we did on the OL? This team has never shown a consistent ability to build a structure/system from top to bottom. It is always ad hoc seat of the pants. They wait 20 years to start thinking 'hey, maybe we can go into free agency when our draft picks are not working out" and then "maybe we build the lines but lets start with the DL and let the future star QB suffer for a bit'. Clueless organization, bottom of the franchise value chain for good reason. 

[sparky151]

This article might explain some of it. It's about the Bengals lack of success running the ball against light boxes with 6 or fewer defenders.

 

https://theathletic.com/2838783/2021/09/21/inside-the-numbers-bengals-not-taking-advantage-of-opportunity-in-run-game/

 

[Spotto]

The HC has one job.  Prepare the team which includes leading all coordinators and position coaches to their jobs well.

 

It's about time Zac steps back and does HIS JOB.

 

I'm repeating this from last year.  Last year I hoped Zac could see his isn't delivering as he is not focussed on the WHOLE team.  A rookie HC learning curve.

 

This year, I now just think he is an arrogant putz.

 

That offensive game plan against Da'Bears was offensive!

[|kennethmw|]

On 9/21/2021 at 7:12 AM, WRAPradio said:

 

You're probably right...maybe...the other day online there was a commercial with this OJ fella running through the airport...now he had moves.  Maybe we should check him out.

 

He as at least considered to be excellent at cutting.