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THE LAST O-LINE THREAD....i hope...


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The Reality check everyone seems to need:

Some people are deluding themselves acting like the team did NOTHING to attempt to bolster the O-Line this past offseason. Get a fucking grip, you sound ridiculous. 

 

- Fired O-Line coach hired another one that was clearly better.

- Signed Spain back who played well.

- Sign free quality starter at RT in Reiff

- Drafted 3 Linemen in the draft, including a second rounder from a huge college program

 

Now obviously this didn't all pan out very well. But we ended the season with 40-60% of the players in spots we planned on them being. so late round draft picks got thrown into the fire, the early pick came in out of shape and couldn't get his shit together in the passing game, that obviously wasnt the plan. did they make a bunch of efforts to fix the o-line? yes. did those efforts work out? only for a few weeks maybe. as soon as experience together settled in injuries started and the rotations from hell started. but the effort was put in. To say they didnt try to fix is is horseshit. It just didn't work. 

 

 

Reality going forward:

Essentially all of the same spots need fixing, and that fucking sucks.

 

- RT need replaced, even if Reiff wants to come back, which i doubt, id prefer he just be for depth anyway.

- Everyone loves to write off Carmen, he is a big question, they obviously drafted him assuming he could become a solid pass blocker, but is that a 6 month offseason program to get there or a year or so to work into it type of thing? Also the chance it never pans out. they and we should know by the time preseason rolls around, so no matter what, a backup plan HAS to happen.

- As far as PFF grades go, essentially if you give up a sack or two youre rating turns to shit, which is should, be some small growrth and improvement can have a 1.2 graded RG or RT grading mid high 60's pretty quick, detailed by the rollercoaster some of our young guys had in grades.

 

Now the dramatic offseason "need-to" is going to be blind and painful, we dont need 4 new linemen. People love to ignore how cohesive the o-line must play together, and the phrase of "its only as good as its weakest link" is always true with the line. None of us know too much of the realities of some of those players abilities, RG may be the only gunshot wound holding the line back form being average (average isnt the goal, obviously, but its easier to build on average that shit). The staff does, theyll just need to have more depth prepared, IMO.

 

Best course of action?

 

 

SO, what the plan? IMO...

 

- Grab some more Q-Spain type guys who want to fight for jobs, ideally this will be for depth.

- Grab the best RT you can either empty the bank for 2-3 years on one or 3-4 on a reasonable expense one, as we have cap nightmares coming up. if the Iowe Center drops, grab him, if not BPA between DB and OL, unless a steal of the decade happens at another position.

- Scrap the lost causes in the O-Line room as needed. 

- Draft 2 linemen in the first 4 rounds would be ideal, id like to see 4-6 new bodies in the o-line group, mostly for depth. Injuries happen, its when not IF. so its go time on being as deep as possible. 

 

BLuckily there should be players WANTING to come play here. We shouldnt have to overpay guys this offeason. 

 

 

Now lets talk about the cap, people seem to be missing some huge changes in recent years.

 

With some superstars on the roster, we have a spending problem in 3-4 years. The draft HAS TO pan out to keep these guys on the team.

 

The 5th year option, this used to be AWESOME, tack on another year with a slight raise, perfect. THATS NO LONGER. The 5th year option for Burrow, IIRC is going to be over 30 million.  The 5th year option for Chase, is going to be over 20 MILLION. Bates deal, is going to likely cost $16-17 million. and last into those 5th year options. Thats 70+ million in 3 players. the cap is 208 million next year, can it 250 in a few years? thats almost 30% of the cap in 3 guys. People want a 20mil a year RT? ok almost 40% in 4 players. 

 

The above number are close, close enough, if someone wants to predict the future numbers feel free, it was explained that the 5th year option essentially follows the old Transition tag formula, which is the average of the top 10 salaries at the position for the last 10 years adjusted for salary cap increase.

 

If it was normal 5th year options for everyone id be all for a wild ass spending spree with 3-4 years to figure it out with draft picks, but we need a great balance of the two. 

 

Thaughts?

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While the Bengals made some efforts to improve the line they really didn't commit. 

 

Reiff was a solid signing and they spent $7.5M.  Good move.

 

Spain was signed for $1.2M.  Pretty much waiver wire guy money.  They went cheap on guards again.  This strategy continues to screw the Bengals.  As well as trying to draft tackles and convert them to guards.  Frankly their OL drafting has been disastrous for quite a while now.  Maybe hire a scout that knows a thing or two about offensive linemen?

 

I don't see the cap as a big issue as it comes to OL.  I don't see the kind of guys the Bengals would target getting more than 2-3 years.  No thank you on the Quinton Spain types.  They hit the lottery on that bargain basement buy.  They need to be serious and sign a good veteran guard and/or center for a  few years.  Maybe by then one of these projects will pan out.

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I'm gonna be honest, If Joe Burrow is the guy we think he is,  and IF spending 20mil will get us someone that will make our line keep Joey from getting banged as much as he has been and ALL the rest come from the draft, it's a small price to pay.  I can agree with pretty much everything else.  I do not want to become like the Browns and the Colts.

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59 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

While the Bengals made some efforts to improve the line they really didn't commit. 

 

Reiff was a solid signing and they spent $7.5M.  Good move.

 

Spain was signed for $1.2M.  Pretty much waiver wire guy money.  They went cheap on guards again.  This strategy continues to screw the Bengals.  As well as trying to draft tackles and convert them to guards.  Frankly their OL drafting has been disastrous for quite a while now.  Maybe hire a scout that knows a thing or two about offensive linemen?

 

I don't see the cap as a big issue as it comes to OL.  I don't see the kind of guys the Bengals would target getting more than 2-3 years.  No thank you on the Quinton Spain types.  They hit the lottery on that bargain basement buy.  They need to be serious and sign a good veteran guard and/or center for a  few years.  Maybe by then one of these projects will pan out.

 

a second round pick isnt cheap, and spending money doesnt equal quality. everyone wanted eric fisher, he tied for 10th most sacks given up.

 

if reiff isn't injured, and is in the game sunday, we may very well have won, theres no list of free agents who wont get hurt, we could spend 20mil a year on someone who tears their MCL in training camp. always risk, and that risk bit us in the ass, high cost free agent linemen have almost always priced themselves off of a team, teams dont just let great linemen walk unless they cant afford them. 

 

spending money means nothing. bringing in solid football players is all that matters.

 

we HAVE to spend money on joe, bates and chase and we know when and we know roughly how much, we need to sign better football players to play o-line, finances arent really tied to that directly as there are variables, if we got fischer last year in the offseason everyone would said we made a splash, and he played like dogshit compared to his past, he and reiff ratings were almost identical and reiff gave up less sacks.

 

bengals fans are so star hungry for free agent splashes they are ignoring reality.

 

went cheap on guards, jesus christ. 

 

suafilo rated a 74 pass blocker last season, he was supposed to start at RG. or at minimum backup carmen if he was ready, Reiff was also a 74 pass blocker last year

 

so the bengals put this together in the offseason based on the data available from 2020:

PASSING GRADES:

 

to put this in perspective, this year, the lowest top 10 passing guard grade was 74. 

 

LT: Jonah - 75.8 was hurt, etc but obviously not the problem clear starter)

LG: Spain (a 70.4 Passing grade last season he played was one year prior then filled in here at many spots)

Ce: Trey - 64.3 passing grade

RG: Xavier - 74.8 passing grade, with a 2nd rounder learning behind.

RT: Reiff - 74.9 passing grade

 

this on paper without a crystal ball of injuries and not ready draft picks, is a damn solid line. 5 well above average pass blockers, with 3 draft picks and previous adds behind them. and thats with an offseason of uncertainty if burrow would start for potential free agents to have interest in coming. 

 

then all hell broke loose. Kevin Zeitler always brought up.. in hindsight sure, looking back he was a 68 blocking rate for 2020, so we already had a guy who performed better on the roster. again, that got shit upon, but thats crystal ball shit, no one can argue what they did didnt pan out. but it wasnt a bad plan of attack. keep solid veterans, add solid veterans, draft youth to groom, it should have turned out better than it did.

 

the draft is no better, going back to 2016, O-line drafted in the first round, there were 6, 1 is still on his team and started all games in the last year or two, every single other pick is gone to another team or out of the league, or injured and didnt play. 1 in 6.

 

people keep acting like this is easy... just draft more, just throw money at it... thats not how anything works.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Jungletiger said:

I'm gonna be honest, If Joe Burrow is the guy we think he is,  and IF spending 20mil will get us someone that will make our line keep Joey from getting banged as much as he has been and ALL the rest come from the draft, it's a small price to pay.  I can agree with pretty much everything else.  I do not want to become like the Browns and the Colts.

 

its not.

 

why do people keep acting like this is a thing.  "just spend 20 million and we are set"  we arent, we need depth, and we need guys going forward, no one is immune to getting hurt, no one is immune to falling off or not performing as well in a new scheme, no one is immune to stopping giving a shit after a payday.

 

just throwing money at it and crossing your fingers isnt really a fix in any way.

 

i dont want to say its luck,  but luck is involved. if 1 in 6 first round pick o-line in one draft end up even seeing a second contract let alone staying in the league, and former amazing players are top 10 in sacks, there is no clear answer.

 

we gotta try a little bit of everything.  depth is huge, and we absolutely MUST build depth we cant keep spending to patch holes with top cost guys.  find me the hendrickson of o-linemen, but shit, he was hurt half the season and played through it. these are impossible puzzles to master, hedging your bets properly in all areas and options and stay as healthy as possible.

 

its a tough one.

 

by no means am i saying it cant be done, there just isnt a clear fix, i just keeping digging into daata, what if we did this, what if we draft this way, what is we spend 100 mil on linemen, and all of them can easily flop in our face. 

 

gotta be a good medium to not ruin the young skill players future finances and do whatever is safest (whatever that even means) for the short term.

 

skill spots seem easier to patch, o-line is a problem every teams is trying to solve every year, its a constant shortage it seems.

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2 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

 

its not.

 

why do people keep acting like this is a thing.  "just spend 20 million and we are set"  we arent, we need depth, and we need guys going forward, no one is immune to getting hurt, no one is immune to falling off or not performing as well in a new scheme, no one is immune to stopping giving a shit after a payday.

 

just throwing money at it and crossing your fingers isnt really a fix in any way.

 

i dont want to say its luck,  but luck is involved. if 1 in 6 first round pick o-line in one draft end up even seeing a second contract let alone staying in the league, and former amazing players are top 10 in sacks, there is no clear answer.

 

we gotta try a little bit of everything.  depth is huge, and we absolutely MUST build depth we cant keep spending to patch holes with top cost guys.  find me the hendrickson of o-linemen, but shit, he was hurt half the season and played through it. these are impossible puzzles to master, hedging your bets properly in all areas and options and stay as healthy as possible.

 

its a tough one.

 

by no means am i saying it cant be done, there just isnt a clear fix, i just keeping digging into daata, what if we did this, what if we draft this way, what is we spend 100 mil on linemen, and all of them can easily flop in our face. 

 

gotta be a good medium to not ruin the young skill players future finances and do whatever is safest (whatever that even means) for the short term.

 

skill spots seem easier to patch, o-line is a problem every teams is trying to solve every year, its a constant shortage it seems.

 

I get what you're saying, but if someone comes out, who has a history of being healthy and is a top trenches guy comes out, imo, it's worth vying for with cash.  I don't want to blindly throw out money, but I would, like you put it, like to have a Hendrickson for the Oline.  As you also stated, getting someone through the draft is not a guarantee, but at least with an FA you have league history behind them to kind of know what you're getting.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Jungletiger said:

 

I get what you're saying, but if someone comes out, who has a history of being healthy and is a top trenches guy comes out, imo, it's worth vying for with cash.  I don't want to blindly throw out money, but I would, like you put it, like to have a Hendrickson for the Oline.  As you also stated, getting someone through the draft is not a guarantee, but at least with an FA you have league history behind them to kind of know what you're getting.

 

 

 

oh i absolutely agree, im not saying we shouldnt go after a star if its there and makes sense. we just need to be careful on total years, 3 would be ideal, IMO, and also hedge our best with some Spain, something to prove type guys, we had a terrible mix of too young and not ready backups all over, and it got ugly fast because of it.

 

im not saying we dont draft a first round linemen and im not saying dont sign a big dollar guy, im just saying neither has killer odds of being a home run, so we need to hedge our bets like 4-6 times, not just one big splash, etc.

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3 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

 

oh i absolutely agree, im not saying we shouldnt go after a star if its there and makes sense. we just need to be careful on total years, 3 would be ideal, IMO, and also hedge our best with some Spain, something to prove type guys, we had a terrible mix of too young and not ready backups all over, and it got ugly fast because of it.

 

im not saying we dont draft a first round linemen and im not saying dont sign a big dollar guy, im just saying neither has killer odds of being a home run, so we need to hedge our bets like 4-6 times, not just one big splash, etc.

 

Well said, can't argue that.

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Yeah.  Just get good football players.  The Bengals know who they are and don’t have to spend money.  Are you serious?   Finding a good guard like Spain for $1.2M is like hitting the lottery. Don’t count on that happening again.  The rest of the league isn’t that stupid.  
 

I’m not saying every shiny object is worth paying for, but when you sign quality players it shows.  See;  Bengals defense.  They signed quality players and paid for them.  They have the cap space to do the same for the OL and damn well should. 

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Good post, I agree completely. The front office tried and had a pretty good plan going into the season, it just was the one area we couldn’t afford a major injury. Reiff was the guy…if he plays in the playoffs and Super Bowl, I truly believe the Bengals win all of them and by bigger margins. If Burrow can do what he did behind this line, just imagine what he will do behind a better line. 

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Also, will be very interesting if the former Saints now in Cincy can recruit Armstead to come join them for another SB run. Maybe he won’t command top dollar knowing he is coming in to a winning program and the Joe factor. Move Jonah to RT or LG (Spain move to RG), and sign a quality replacement where Jonah doesn’t end up and we could be cooking. 

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I think the Bengals need to do whatever it takes to get high enough to get center Tyler Linderbaum in the draft. With OL quality beats quantity, and he would be worth putting together several picks a 1st, 2nd, and 4th to get high enough to secure him (as I think he's a day 1 starter). 

 

Then sign free agent Trent Brown and resign Reiff and Spain.

 

For instance ... 

 

Jonah -- Spain -- Linderbaum -- Reiff -- Brown 

 

Is something I think the team can work with.  

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4 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

Yeah.  Just get good football players.  The Bengals know who they are and don’t have to spend money.  Are you serious?   Finding a good guard like Spain for $1.2M is like hitting the lottery. Don’t count on that happening again.  The rest of the league isn’t that stupid.  
 

I’m not saying every shiny object is worth paying for, but when you sign quality players it shows.  See;  Bengals defense.  They signed quality players and paid for them.  They have the cap space to do the same for the OL and damn well should. 

Yes to that.

They made the plunge.into making the defense a solid unit.

 

Offense has elite skilled players except...

 

The Oline.....

Its scary bad...

 

So many plays altered due to pass protection inadequacies..

Center RG and RT are the Top priorities  to see this offense explode.. 

 

And it would explode..

 

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Joe will be in year 3, we have at least 2 years before we have to do a new deal with him, Jamar will be in year 2, we have him for 3 more years before we have to think about a new deal.

 

We should be able to find guys for 2-3 year deals while we draft kids to eventually take over when you have to pay Joe and Jamar. 

 

Earl is right, we have been horrible about finding Oline in the draft for a few years, which is sad because we used to be really good at it. 

 

Not sure what changed, but fix that. 

 

We are one block away from protecting Joe long enough for him to hit Jamar on that game winning go route. Dont take your foot off the gas. 

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2 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

Joe will be in year 3, we have at least 2 years before we have to do a new deal with him, Jamar will be in year 2, we have him for 3 more years before we have to think about a new deal.

I'm not well educated on the current CBA - do guys not hold out on rookie deals anymore before they expire?

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3 minutes ago, Cat said:

I'm not well educated on the current CBA - do guys not hold out on rookie deals anymore before they expire?

 

CBA rules say you can't do new deals until after year 3. So the earliest we could redo Joe is at the end of the coming season.

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Yes Just like Jessie Bates.

 

The Saints have until March 14 to resign or tag him.

 

As we have till the 14th to resign or tag Bates.

 

 

Every year folks do this, they get excited about guys that never even end up leaving their teams. I feel like lets wait until we know who will actually be available?

 

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47 minutes ago, membengal said:

Saints are $50 million Over the cap- I don’t think tagging him is a realistic option for them 

I dunno why, but this cap crap confuses me every year and I keep forgetting the real answer...

 

So there's this salary cap thingy which is a fixed number, but teams routinely go over the cap it seems...what I'm unclear about is what ramifications and rules are in place.  Obviously you can go over the cap (which seems strange/wrong to me to begin with), but I assume you need to make corrective actions to get it back inline or ???. 

 

So what are the rules, how much can you go over, how often/long can you go over, what are the ramifications if you do go over, etc, etc in reasonably simple terms please???

 

THANKS!

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48 minutes ago, esjbh2 said:

I dunno why, but this cap crap confuses me every year and I keep forgetting the real answer...

 

So there's this salary cap thingy which is a fixed number, but teams routinely go over the cap it seems...what I'm unclear about is what ramifications and rules are in place.  Obviously you can go over the cap (which seems strange/wrong to me to begin with), but I assume you need to make corrective actions to get it back inline or ???. 

 

So what are the rules, how much can you go over, how often/long can you go over, what are the ramifications if you do go over, etc, etc in reasonably simple terms please???

 

THANKS!

I am not the one to do that, unfortunately. As I understand it, teams can play sleight of hand with money, contract re-structurings, void years, etc, to manufacture cap space where they are tight or over and can do that for a number of years but eventually it catches up. The Saints have been playing that game for several years now as they tried to keep the window open while they had Brees. Now, one-year post- Brees, some of those past machinations are probably catching up with them.  It is hard to see the series of re-structurings needed to get cap space freed up to tag Armstead, for instance. And are they in a position to continue cap shenanigans unless they sort out a good QB? 

 

So, to Jamie's point, while we don't know if any one player will make it to FA w/out being tagged or re-signed, I feel like with Armstead, given his age, the Saints cap situation, and the Saints being on the edge of a teardown at some point if they can't sort out QB, that Armstead feels more likely to make FA than he might otherwise have. 

 

I could, of course, be hella wrong. 

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I think these are the legitimate free agent guys on the OL. How would you piece together a line with them?

 

Orange-Bengals, FA and current

Blue-Older than 27, (we typically don't like older guys)

Green-Younger than 27

Column 1 indicates if they are a bad team based on draft order

Column 2 indicates if they are in salary cap hell

 

    C Age Overall Pass Block Run Block Snaps Starts 2021/Career Notes  
    Trey Hill 22 53.3 65.3 54.5 210 3/3 Through 2025  
    Trey Hopkins 30 52.2 61.4 47.8 1124 15/67 Through 2023  
    Kelce-Eagles 34 84.5 69.2 89 1059 17/159 UC Grad  
  7 Jones-Titans 33 76.4 66.3 79.9 1213 17/139    
    Jensen-Bucs 31 68.7 57.1 77.7 1296 17/90    
6   Paradis-Panthers 33 66.9 53.6 69.9 568 9/98 Callahan-Broncos 2015  
3   Britt-Texans 31 64.5 53.7 71.5 671 11/97    
  6 Allen-Rams 27 76.2 64.1 80.8 1112 16/25 Taylor-Rams 2018  
    Bozeman-Ravens 27 73.3 73.8 70.7 1125 16/49    
2   Brown-Lions 25 66.6 72.4 62.7 755 12/12    
                     
    G Age Overall Pass Block Run Block Snaps Starts 2021/Career Notes
    Quinton Spain 31 68.9 59.9 71 1191 16/90    
    Jackson Carman 22 54.2 45.9 64.1 501 6/6   Through 2025
    D'Ante Smith 24 53.9 43.1 57.7 58 1/1   Through 2025
    Xavier Su'a-Filo 31 50 52 49 124 2/60   Practice Squad
    Hakeem Adeniji 24 44.9 38.9 47.5 716 9/14   Through 2024
    Compton-49ers 33 79.9 64.6 89.5 743 7/44 Pollack-Jets 2020 LG/RG/RT
    Scherff-Team 30 73.7 72.4 73.8 697 11/89   RG
    Tomlinson-49ers 30 73.6 69.2 75.3 1264 17/104 Callahan-Lions 2016 LG
    Karras-Patriots 29 72.9 76.5 68 891 13/49   G/C
    Glowinski-Colts 30 70.1 62.6 70.6 843 14/74   RG
    Turner-Stealers 29 68.1 72.5 65.5 1150 17/106   RG
1   Norwell-Jaguars 30 67.1 73.5 63.4 1078 17/111 OSU From Cincy LG
  3 Williams-Cowboys 25 75.2 74 76.9 1020 14/51   LG
    Cappa-Bucs 27 71.9 69.2 69 1327 17/46   RG
7   Daniels-Bears 25 71.8 69.3 72.4 1121 17/48   RG/C/LG
  6 Corbett-Rams 26 68.8 64.5 66.7 1290 17/41   RG
                     
    T Age Overall Pass Block Run Block Snaps Starts 2021/Career Notes
    Fred Johnson 25 81 61.3 83.6 90 1/8   RFA
    Jonah Williams 24 76.5 69.5 77.3 1240 16/26   Through 2024
    Riley Reiff 33 67.3 58.4 70 711 12/139    
    Isiah Prince 25 55.4 51.4 68.8 580 4/6   Through 2024
  7 Quesenberry-Titans 32 79.2 61.6 86.6 1237 17/23   RT
    Lucas-Team 31 75.1 73.5 71.1 587 7/31 Taylor-Rams 2017 RT
7   Peters-Bears 40 77.9 77.9 71.6 853 15/218   LT
  1 Armstead-Saints 31 75.9 85.6 64.1 468 8/93   LT
    Brown-Patriots 29 72.8 77 64.9 551 9/69   RT
  2 Kelly-Packers 32 72.5 73.6 71.3 361 4/51   RT
    Brown-Seahawks 37 71.5 69.9 69.7 969 17/203   LT
    Massie-Broncos 32 71 60.1 76.6 796 13/123   RT
4   Moses-Jets 31 70.9 65.7 74.7 1022 16/113   RT
    Fisher-Colts 31 68 61 73.3 874 15/128   LT/RT
    Remmers-Chiefs 33 64.5 63.6 67.9 156 2/90   RT
    Shell-Seahawks 30 66.9 60.4 69.5 550 10/61 Pollack-Jets 2019 RT
5 5 Solder-Giants 34 60.2 52.7 67.2 927 16/143   RT
  6 Noteboom-Rams 27 77.7 81.6 68.5 279 2/17   LT/LG
    Pryor-Colts 27 76.5 75.2 74.8 438 5/15   RG/RT
    Brown-Chiefs 26 75.3 74.2 68.4 1337 16/58   LT
1   Robinson-Jaguars 26 67.3 76.6 52.2 856 14/61   LT
2   Crosby-Lions 26 64.2 68.1 56.9 657 0/18 IR-#s from 2020 RT
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