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5 hours ago, sparky151 said:

The PFF guy who did the projection for Tee's extension has his article on defensive players out today. His projection for a Logan Wilson extension is 3 years, 34.5 mil with 14 mil guaranteed. 

 

If I had to choose one or the other I'm keeping Wilson.

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12 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

If I had to choose one or the other I'm keeping Wilson.

 

Eh, he's a very good MLB but a WR2 who is as good as a WR1 is harder to find and has a higher market value. I'd keep both as well as extend Burrow and Reader. But that requires cutting Mixon and trading Williams. 

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23 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Eh, he's a very good MLB but a WR2 who is as good as a WR1 is harder to find and has a higher market value. I'd keep both as well as extend Burrow and Reader. But that requires cutting Mixon and trading Williams. 

 

 

I really don't know what trade partner for Williams you think you are going to find, or why you think cutting Mixon is a legitimate option at this point. This has kind of become a theme with you, and I really question the legitimacy of the argument at this point in the season. 

 

Williams had his best year in his 4th year, so of course they were going to give him the 5th year option. Unfortunately, it turned out that his 5th year was pretty bad and we were able to upgrade by getting OBJ. But that left them 12 mil on the hook for Williams, that's nobody's fault because the previous year he played well enough to earn the extension. Let's just be thankful that 12 million is only for one year and we didn't extend him into a new contract, because that could have been so much worse. The argument that we should trade him .....with who? ... The Jags were the only team that reported interest and I'm going to say this again, none of us know what their offer was for.....but it wasn't enough to entice the Bengals. That isn't likely to change now. MAYBE someone gets hurt and they find trading partner to take the 12 million off our hands.....but I kind of doubt it. But the 12 million will be off the books by the time the season is over and will allow us from the time the season is over until the start of FA to use that money on other players. 

 

You also made the argument that we should have traded him before the draft. Again ....with who? His trade value was even lower before the draft because teams we going to sit and wait to see if they could get a tackle in the draft. I really do not understand the logic in the trade him before the draft thinking. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

Now to Mixon....

 

It was thought that had one of the RBs dropped to 28 they may have take one, that did not happen. In fact the RBs for the value they had them we just not there until Brown in the 5th. And the Derick Henry stuff was never serious, anyone who thought the Titans were going to trade away their best player ....come on...

 

Which leaves Mixon as RB1 because they are not going to start a 5th round rookie RB on a team that is competing for a Super Bowl.

 

Let this talk die.

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2 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Eh, he's a very good MLB but a WR2 who is as good as a WR1 is harder to find and has a higher market value. I'd keep both as well as extend Burrow and Reader. But that requires cutting Mixon and trading Williams. 

 

They've had an almost continuous run of good WR's since at least Chad & TJ. How many good LBs have they had in that timeframe? Maybe 2?

 

 

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37 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

They've had an almost continuous run of good WR's since at least Chad & TJ. How many good LBs have they had in that timeframe? Maybe 2?

 

 

 

 

Simpson and Sanu were just ok, nothing to write home about TBH. But yes in general the Bengals are  very good at finding  WRs

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2 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

I really don't know what trade partner for Williams you think you are going to find, or why you think cutting Mixon is a legitimate option at this point. This has kind of become a theme with you, and I really question the legitimacy of the argument at this point in the season. 

 

Williams had his best year in his 4th year, so of course they were going to give him the 5th year option. Unfortunately, it turned out that his 5th year was pretty bad and we were able to upgrade by getting OBJ. But that left them 12 mil on the hook for Williams, that's nobody's fault because the previous year he played well enough to earn the extension. Let's just be thankful that 12 million is only for one year and we didn't extend him into a new contract, because that could have been so much worse. The argument that we should trade him .....with who? ... The Jags were the only team that reported interest and I'm going to say this again, none of us know what their offer was for.....but it wasn't enough to entice the Bengals. That isn't likely to change now. MAYBE someone gets hurt and they find trading partner to take the 12 million off our hands.....but I kind of doubt it. But the 12 million will be off the books by the time the season is over and will allow us from the time the season is over until the start of FA to use that money on other players. 

 

You also made the argument that we should have traded him before the draft. Again ....with who? His trade value was even lower before the draft because teams we going to sit and wait to see if they could get a tackle in the draft. I really do not understand the logic in the trade him before the draft thinking. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

Now to Mixon....

 

It was thought that had one of the RBs dropped to 28 they may have take one, that did not happen. In fact the RBs for the value they had them we just not there until Brown in the 5th. And the Derick Henry stuff was never serious, anyone who thought the Titans were going to trade away their best player ....come on...

 

Which leaves Mixon as RB1 because they are not going to start a 5th round rookie RB on a team that is competing for a Super Bowl.

 

Let this talk die.

 

Agree on all accounts.  And call me nuts but having Jonah on the roster for this season as an injury $12M insurance plan doesn't seem like a bad thing to me given the amount of attrition the OL has seen even as recent as last season when it mattered the most down the stretch.

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

They've had an almost continuous run of good WR's since at least Chad & TJ. How many good LBs have they had in that timeframe? Maybe 2?

 

 

 

You could argue the same for LB with the current staff considering they drafted both Pratt & Wilson and neither were 1st rounders.

 

This isn't Marv's staff hanging on to the Caleb Miller's of the world anymore.

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14 minutes ago, Dautcom08 said:

 

Agree on all accounts.  And call me nuts but having Jonah on the roster for this season as an injury $12M insurance plan doesn't seem like a bad thing to me given the amount of attrition the OL has seen even as recent as last season when it mattered the most down the stretch.

 

 

Same

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3 hours ago, Dautcom08 said:

 

Agree on all accounts.  And call me nuts but having Jonah on the roster for this season as an injury $12M insurance plan doesn't seem like a bad thing to me given the amount of attrition the OL has seen even as recent as last season when it mattered the most down the stretch.


Jonah’s health and contract make a trade more difficult than some would admit.  He hasn’t stayed healthy except one season.  $12.6 million is a big salary to take on and give up draft compensation as well.  He’s also a FA after this year.  So basically he’s an expensive rental and even if he performs well he’ll be expensive to keep.  I’m not surprised a trade didn’t happen.  
 

The Bengals picked up his 5th year option and have to pay him regardless.  It sucks because of the timing and there’s no doubt his option would have been declined after last season’s performance if that’s how it worked.  The best option available is to have him compete at RT with Carman and Collins.  If he loses out, he’s an expensive swing tackle (still a better option than Adeniji or D’ante Smith).  Given recent history, it’s better insurance than the past few years IMO.

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2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:


Jonah’s health and contract make a trade more difficult than some would admit.  He hasn’t stayed healthy except one season.  $12.6 million is a big salary to take on and give up draft compensation as well.  He’s also a FA after this year.  So basically he’s an expensive rental and even if he performs well he’ll be expensive to keep.  I’m not surprised a trade didn’t happen.  
 

The Bengals picked up his 5th year option and have to pay him regardless.  It sucks because of the timing and there’s no doubt his option would have been declined after last season’s performance if that’s how it worked.  The best option available is to have him compete at RT with Carman and Collins.  If he loses out, he’s an expensive swing tackle (still a better option than Adeniji or D’ante Smith).  Given recent history, it’s better insurance than the past few years IMO.

 

The reasons he's not worth much in a trade are the same reasons we shouldn't be counting on him to play RT. What makes him a better fit here other than the sunk costs?

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On 5/25/2023 at 1:09 PM, Jamie_B said:

 

 

I really don't know what trade partner for Williams you think you are going to find, or why you think cutting Mixon is a legitimate option at this point. This has kind of become a theme with you, and I really question the legitimacy of the argument at this point in the season. 

 

Williams had his best year in his 4th year, so of course they were going to give him the 5th year option. Unfortunately, it turned out that his 5th year was pretty bad and we were able to upgrade by getting OBJ. But that left them 12 mil on the hook for Williams, that's nobody's fault because the previous year he played well enough to earn the extension. Let's just be thankful that 12 million is only for one year and we didn't extend him into a new contract, because that could have been so much worse. The argument that we should trade him .....with who? ... The Jags were the only team that reported interest and I'm going to say this again, none of us know what their offer was for.....but it wasn't enough to entice the Bengals. That isn't likely to change now. MAYBE someone gets hurt and they find trading partner to take the 12 million off our hands.....but I kind of doubt it. But the 12 million will be off the books by the time the season is over and will allow us from the time the season is over until the start of FA to use that money on other players. 

 

You also made the argument that we should have traded him before the draft. Again ....with who? His trade value was even lower before the draft because teams we going to sit and wait to see if they could get a tackle in the draft. I really do not understand the logic in the trade him before the draft thinking. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

Now to Mixon....

 

It was thought that had one of the RBs dropped to 28 they may have take one, that did not happen. In fact the RBs for the value they had them we just not there until Brown in the 5th. And the Derick Henry stuff was never serious, anyone who thought the Titans were going to trade away their best player ....come on...

 

Which leaves Mixon as RB1 because they are not going to start a 5th round rookie RB on a team that is competing for a Super Bowl.

 

Let this talk die.

 

The argument is perfectly legitimate until the week 8 trade deadline. Paying Williams 12.6 mil to play RT doesn't make sense. If Collins and Carman both get hurt and go on season ending IR, then sure. Otherwise, no. Do you expect Collins to be on the active roster for week 1? If so his contract is effectively guaranteed as a vested veteran. That would mean the team is paying 22 mil to the pair of them. Combined, they aren't 35% better than Orlando Brown since only 1 can play at a time at RT. If you think Collins should be cut, fine, just say so. But choosing Williams over Collins to play RT for the Bengals in 2023 would be a poor decision imo. Collins is recovering from a serious knee injury but seems to be progressing well. He played well for the Cowboys at RT his last couple of years there in 2020 and 2021. Then not as well in 2022 in Cincinnati. Maybe he'll bounce back but Jonah has never been as good at LT as Lael was at RT. So Collins is probably a better bet to be a solid NFL RT for the playoffs this upcoming year.

 

I don't fault the team for drafting Jonah, nor for exercising his 5th year option. But circumstances changed when Brown fell into our laps later in the first week of free agency. The team should have adapted not by moving Jonah to RT but by getting value for him on his way out the door. A healthy Williams has trade value as various NFL observers noted at the time. He's a middle of the pack starting LT when healthy. That would be an upgrade for quite a few teams and well worth a mid-round pick provided they were sure he was healthy and not just a one year rental of damaged goods. Even now, a team like the Patriots could use him. His trade value was higher before the draft because teams could (Bengals willing) examine his knee caps and talk contract extension with him. Filling a premium position with a midround pick is an attractive option for a team since that leaves a top pick available for other positions and doesn't require your first choice player to fall to your draft spot. There is more demand than supply for competent O-linemen. 

 

I doubt the Bengal would have drafted any RB at 28, except maybe Bijan Robinson. Bengals could easily have taken another RB in rounds 2-4. They chose not to and I'm happy with Brown, provided he hangs on to the ball. The Titans have a new GM this year and it's been reported he was cleaning out the older players. Tannehill is in the last year of his contract and they drafted his replacement. They cut Ben Jones and Taylor Lewan. Henry is in the last year of his deal and has lost a step so the reports he was being offered to other teams make sense. He's still clearly better than Mixon and costs less so picking him up would be a good move for a team competing for the Super Bowl. Maybe they will just wait for Dalvin Cook to be cut by the Vikings. He's a better player than Mixon at this point in their careers .

 

23 hours ago, Dautcom08 said:

 

Agree on all accounts.  And call me nuts but having Jonah on the roster for this season as an injury $12M insurance plan doesn't seem like a bad thing to me given the amount of attrition the OL has seen even as recent as last season when it mattered the most down the stretch.

 

Uh, having insurance for Jonah makes sense. He's ended 3 of his 4 seasons on IR. Counting on Jonah as the insurance plan doesn't make sense. Twelve mil is a lot to pay for a backup and so is the 9 mil+ that Collins costs. Cam Fleming signed for 4 mil with the Broncos this week and that's what a quality veteran backup should cost. Or we can go cheap with Carman, Smith, Adeniji or Ford.

 

20 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:


Jonah’s health and contract make a trade more difficult than some would admit.  He hasn’t stayed healthy except one season.  $12.6 million is a big salary to take on and give up draft compensation as well.  He’s also a FA after this year.  So basically he’s an expensive rental and even if he performs well he’ll be expensive to keep.  I’m not surprised a trade didn’t happen.  
 

The Bengals picked up his 5th year option and have to pay him regardless.  It sucks because of the timing and there’s no doubt his option would have been declined after last season’s performance if that’s how it worked.  The best option available is to have him compete at RT with Carman and Collins.  If he loses out, he’s an expensive swing tackle (still a better option than Adeniji or D’ante Smith).  Given recent history, it’s better insurance than the past few years IMO.

 

The question isn't whether Jonah is better than Adeniji or Smith, he is. It's whether it's a good use of the team's resources to pay him 12.6 mil. IMO he's clearly not worth the 12.6 mil that would amount to the signing bonus on a Wilson or Reader extension or a large part of a Higgins signing bonus. So even trading him to Jacksonville for a conditional 2025 7th rounder makes more sense than keeping him a insurance in case Brown gets hurt or Collins can't play week 1. We have Carman to cover those situations. 

 

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On 5/25/2023 at 9:59 PM, T-Dub said:

 

The reasons he's not worth much in a trade are the same reasons we shouldn't be counting on him to play RT. What makes him a better fit here other than the sunk costs?

Again, he’s not being counted on to start and they have multiple options at RT.  No one within the organization has said anything other than he gets to compete for the job.  I understand you don’t want him here at all but the circumstances of his health and contract make trading him difficult.  It’s not ideal obviously but it is better than giving him away for nothing or eating some/most of his salary to play for someone else.  

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28 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Again, he’s not being counted on to start and they have multiple options at RT. 

 

Jackson Carman is 330lbs but calling him "multiple options" is still kind of rude.

 

Ford was moved inside to G before Buffalo traded him for a 5th round pick but sure, he's an option.  I don't think anyone wants him starting. Collins isn't expected to be healthy for TC.

 

Am I forgetting someone?

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On 5/26/2023 at 3:36 PM, sparky151 said:

 

The argument is perfectly legitimate until the week 8 trade deadline. Paying Williams 12.6 mil to play RT doesn't make sense. If Collins and Carman both get hurt and go on season ending IR, then sure. Otherwise, no. Do you expect Collins to be on the active roster for week 1? If so his contract is effectively guaranteed as a vested veteran. That would mean the team is paying 22 mil to the pair of them. Combined, they aren't 35% better than Orlando Brown since only 1 can play at a time at RT. If you think Collins should be cut, fine, just say so. But choosing Williams over Collins to play RT for the Bengals in 2023 would be a poor decision imo. Collins is recovering from a serious knee injury but seems to be progressing well. He played well for the Cowboys at RT his last couple of years there in 2020 and 2021. Then not as well in 2022 in Cincinnati. Maybe he'll bounce back but Jonah has never been as good at LT as Lael was at RT. So Collins is probably a better bet to be a solid NFL RT for the playoffs this upcoming year.

 

I don't fault the team for drafting Jonah, nor for exercising his 5th year option. But circumstances changed when Brown fell into our laps later in the first week of free agency. The team should have adapted not by moving Jonah to RT but by getting value for him on his way out the door. A healthy Williams has trade value as various NFL observers noted at the time. He's a middle of the pack starting LT when healthy. That would be an upgrade for quite a few teams and well worth a mid-round pick provided they were sure he was healthy and not just a one year rental of damaged goods. Even now, a team like the Patriots could use him. His trade value was higher before the draft because teams could (Bengals willing) examine his knee caps and talk contract extension with him. Filling a premium position with a midround pick is an attractive option for a team since that leaves a top pick available for other positions and doesn't require your first choice player to fall to your draft spot. There is more demand than supply for competent O-linemen. 

 

I doubt the Bengal would have drafted any RB at 28, except maybe Bijan Robinson. Bengals could easily have taken another RB in rounds 2-4. They chose not to and I'm happy with Brown, provided he hangs on to the ball. The Titans have a new GM this year and it's been reported he was cleaning out the older players. Tannehill is in the last year of his contract and they drafted his replacement. They cut Ben Jones and Taylor Lewan. Henry is in the last year of his deal and has lost a step so the reports he was being offered to other teams make sense. He's still clearly better than Mixon and costs less so picking him up would be a good move for a team competing for the Super Bowl. Maybe they will just wait for Dalvin Cook to be cut by the Vikings. He's a better player than Mixon at this point in their careers .

 

 

 

 

This is all conjecture. The assumption that Wiliams would have gotten some unknown suitors if the Bengals let him test the market is unknown and thus not worth talking about. Yet here we are.

 

I actually dont want ust to cut any of Williams, Collins, or Caman. I want us to cut Adiniji, all of them are under contract and Collins and Carman contract are team friendly. After watching 3 linmen go down in the final weeks, I'd be pretty ok with Williams, Collans, and Carman still being on the team in week 1.

 

I would be very surprised if Dalvin Cook is not a Viking this year.  You guys dont have to like it, but Joe Mixon is your RB1.

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38 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

This is all conjecture. The assumption that Wiliams would have gotten some unknown suitors if the Bengals let him test the market is unknown and thus not worth talking about. Yet here we are.

 

I actually dont want ust to cut any of Williams, Collins, or Caman. I want us to cut Adiniji, all of them are under contract and Collins and Carman contract are team friendly. After watching 3 linmen go down in the final weeks, I'd be pretty ok with Williams, Collans, and Carman still being on the team in week 1.

 

I would be very surprised if Dalvin Cook is not a Viking this year.  You guys dont have to like it, but Joe Mixon is your RB1.

Im beating a dead horse but having 

Williams Carman and Collins on the roster gives the team depth ...

 

One of them will win the job but injuries happen....depth helps..

 

Fellin pretty good about the other 4 starters ..

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Im beating a dead horse but having 

Williams Carman and Collins on the roster gives the team depth ...

 

One of them will win the job but injuries happen....depth helps..

 

Fellin pretty good about the other 4 starters ..

 

 

 

 

Think they'd play the backups if someone get hurt or just keep plugging in the RTs until they run out?  :D

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4 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

This is all conjecture. The assumption that Wiliams would have gotten some unknown suitors if the Bengals let him test the market is unknown and thus not worth talking about. Yet here we are.

 

I actually dont want ust to cut any of Williams, Collins, or Caman. I want us to cut Adiniji, all of them are under contract and Collins and Carman contract are team friendly. After watching 3 linmen go down in the final weeks, I'd be pretty ok with Williams, Collans, and Carman still being on the team in week 1.

 

I would be very surprised if Dalvin Cook is not a Viking this year.  You guys dont have to like it, but Joe Mixon is your RB1.

 

Back when Jonah asked to be traded, there were reports (I think it was Breer or Shefter) that he would have a trade market if the Bengals wanted to move him. Various teams were mentioned with Jacksonville not even getting involved until Cam Robinson's PED suspension. It's a fact the Bengals didn't get an offer they accepted but it's not unreasonable to see who the potential trade partners would have been. PFF thought he'd go to Tampa as the replacement for Donovan Smith. In some mocks, I was able to trade him to the Colts and Commanders without any trouble. Quite a few teams could have used him on their left side if healthy. 

 

Keeping both Williams and Collins seems unlikely. The Bengals can keep Collins and Mixon until final cuts without owing them anything for 2023 if they don't look like contributors. Collins seemed to be moving pretty well this week so my current guess is he plays in a preseason game and isn't on PUP at the start of the year. He may have a trade market as well if he's able to play week 1. The O-line position where we should worry about our depth is C. We have a logjam of bodies at RT but we're screwed if Karras goes down. Trey Hill and Ben Brown have shown nothing in the NFL. 

 

The Vikings were trying to trade Cook before the draft but nobody wanted his contract. He may take a paycut to stay in Minnesota but if not is likely to be cut. They are trying to clear cap space so they can extend Justin Jefferson and an expensive RB is a luxury. 

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