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OL Offseason 2023


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13 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

What I can't determine is if this is just that the game has passed by Alexander or if finding good linemen is a league wide problem. Because Alexander has also been responsible for finding some of our best linemen too. He drafted Willie and Levi and Whit, and Stienbach....


I think that Heinz coming out with the squeeze bottle for their ketchup really threw him off…😎

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17 hours ago, dex said:

Are you suggesting that the Bengals don't invest a shit ton of resources in both lines? In the 2 previous drafts before this one, 10 out of their 16 total draft picks were linemen, 7 of the 10 were taken within the first 4 rounds. In the last 2 years they have brought in 5 external free agent offensive linemen in the past 2 years, 3 of which won at least one Super Bowl ring as starters. 2 of their 4 DL starters were brought in as external free agents, another starter was acquired via a trade. Using all 3 methods (draft/free agency/trades to fortify the off/def lines. 

RESOURCES APLENTY. 

 

Yes, with not much to show for the draft picks used. Bengals will probably start 3 drafted players among the 9 starters on the lines. Volson was ok as a rookie, Jonah won't be re-signed and may not even have made the team if his contract wasn't fully guaranteed. Hubbard is on his 2nd contract. The other 6 starters on the line are free agent signings. That's a luxury a team can afford when it has a QB on a rookie deal but not as much once he's fairly paid. 

 

Of the backup players in your list of draftees, only Ossai is seeing much playing time. Shelvin is already gone and Carter and Gunter didn't have any impact last year. Sample is just a guy. For the offense, Carman may get snaps this year but Smith will be lucky to get a practice squad spot. Hill may make the roster by default unless Brown beats him out. 

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1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

What I can't determine is if this is just that the game has passed by Alexander or if finding good linemen is a league wide problem. Because Alexander has also been responsible for finding some of our best linemen too. He drafted Willie and Levi and Whit, and Stienbach....

 

Yeah I think he lost the plot at some point, or maybe they had another head in the decision making process & Alexander got the credit.

 

Like we were discussing though, it's a rare athlete that can stand up to 17+ games on an NFL OL. The DL get to rotate, OL are expected to take every snap. It's definitely not easy to find the few that can do it well..

 

Which would argue for drafting at least one or two OL every year... but they've got something of a logjam due to Williams having no trade value & could even end up deep at OT if everything goes well.

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49 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Yes, with not much to show for the draft picks used. Bengals will probably start 3 drafted players among the 9 starters on the lines. Volson was ok as a rookie, Jonah won't be re-signed and may not even have made the team if his contract wasn't fully guaranteed. Hubbard is on his 2nd contract. The other 6 starters on the line are free agent signings. That's a luxury a team can afford when it has a QB on a rookie deal but not as much once he's fairly paid. 

 

Of the backup players in your list of draftees, only Ossai is seeing much playing time. Shelvin is already gone and Carter and Gunter didn't have any impact last year. Sample is just a guy. For the offense, Carman may get snaps this year but Smith will be lucky to get a practice squad spot. Hill may make the roster by default unless Brown beats him out. 

 

The 2019 draft was dogshit. Other than Pratt it's a couple of backups and guys that aren't even playing. 

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5 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Yeah I think he lost the plot at some point, or maybe they had another head in the decision making process & Alexander got the credit.

 

Like we were discussing though, it's a rare athlete that can stand up to 17+ games on an NFL OL. The DL get to rotate, OL are expected to take every snap. It's definitely not easy to find the few that can do it well..

 

Which would argue for drafting at least one or two OL every year... but they've got something of a logjam due to Williams having no trade value & could even end up deep at OT if everything goes well.

 

 

This is why I'm not tripping if we keep Williams, Collins, and Carman, I feel like Collins has played enough to move inside (IIRC he's started at guard before) and were paying big money to both Willams and Collins as backups if Carman can win the job. After watching 3 guys go down last year it may not be ideal in terms of how we spend our resources, but I wont complain if it gives us depth 

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41 minutes ago, Griever said:

 

My bet is Jax offered chump change.

 

Actually, I don't even dislike Jonah Williams.  

His best bet is to suck it up, put on his big boy

pants and have a good year winning and playing ORT.

His versatility at both OLT and ORT plus his experience will

make him a hot commodity in Free Agency after the season.

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I'm not sure how good a fit Jax would be for Jonah. They lost their RT when Taylor went to KC in free agency. They have their LT, Cam Robinson on a long term deal but he then got a PED suspension shortly before the draft. So they used their first round pick on Anton Harrison. If they had given us a mid-round pick for Jonah they could have used their first at another position, probably a pass rusher. They have a decent amount of cap space with Sunshine on his rookie deal. Bengals should have taken a reasonable offer from the Jags instead of demanding a high price. Clearing the cap space for Jonah is worth a lot before we even pick a player with the draft pick. 

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1 hour ago, High School Harry said:

My bet is Jax offered chump change.

 

Actually, I don't even dislike Jonah Williams.  

His best bet is to suck it up, put on his big boy

pants and have a good year winning and playing ORT.

His versatility at both OLT and ORT plus his experience will

make him a hot commodity in Free Agency after the season.

 

Also, Jax is a main competitor of the Bengals...what sense would it make to help them by helping them solidify their oline...for who...for what....Fuck those jort wearing bastards..

 

Like you said, Jonah will play at RT and get paid in the offseason..

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1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

I'm not sure how good a fit Jax would be for Jonah. They lost their RT when Taylor went to KC in free agency. They have their LT, Cam Robinson on a long term deal but he then got a PED suspension shortly before the draft. So they used their first round pick on Anton Harrison. If they had given us a mid-round pick for Jonah they could have used their first at another position, probably a pass rusher. They have a decent amount of cap space with Sunshine on his rookie deal. Bengals should have taken a reasonable offer from the Jags instead of demanding a high price. Clearing the cap space for Jonah is worth a lot before we even pick a player with the draft pick. 

Nobody here knows what the Jags offered or what the Bengals asked for.  Total speculation that we demanded a high price or were even offered a mid round pick.  I definitely agree that clearing the cap space would be very valuable whether or not Jonah starts at RT.  It’s a problem with having to pick up the 5th year option so early.  

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4 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Nobody here knows what the Jags offered or what the Bengals asked for.  Total speculation that we demanded a high price or were even offered a mid round pick.  I definitely agree that clearing the cap space would be very valuable whether or not Jonah starts at RT.  It’s a problem with having to pick up the 5th year option so early.  

 

But then who starts at RT? That would leave Collins that may not even be available or Carman who looked like he might be a decent backup LT but hasn't shown much else beyond that.

 

No secret I think handing the job to a guy that couldn't cut it at LT is pure foolishness driven entirely by his contract but he's still likely to be the best they've got.. Assuming he can get and stay healthy anyway. That's a big "if" in Jonah's case.

 

Oh well! :shrug: Can't just go down to Walmart.

 

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On 5/9/2023 at 12:21 PM, Jamie_B said:

 

 

What I can't determine is if this is just that the game has passed by Alexander or if finding good linemen is a league wide problem. Because Alexander has also been responsible for finding some of our best linemen too. He drafted Willie and Levi and Whit, and Stienbach....

 

I think it's a league-wide problem as most NFL teams struggle to field 5 quality offensive linemen as the college game is very different from the pro game in many respects, and the lack of development of offensive linemen in high school and college is one of the most underrated epidemics in the US entertainment industry today.  From a lack of quality coaching to useless techniques being taught to young players, it's wide open. For many teams, the offensive line is where you put the least athletic players on the team and it's not glamorous to be a high school offensive line coach, so who is signing up for that job? I tell ya, absolutely no one...there's no career path for high school offensive line coaches or even college coaches for that matter. Most of those guys are hacks, see Jim Turner

 

To me, that is the crux of the problem, not enough quality coaches at the feeder systems. So when guys make it to the NFL because they are physically gifted but are all over the place when it comes to fundamentals you can see why there's a huge problem with the talent that is coming out of college.  I love the work future HOF'er Willie Anderson is doing in Atlanta, teaching young guys the techniques he used to be successful... an actual technique that has been proven to be successful instead of theories by guys who've never played the game at a high level. 

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9 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

But then who starts at RT? That would leave Collins that may not even be available or Carman who looked like he might be a decent backup LT but hasn't shown much else beyond that.

 

No secret I think handing the job to a guy that couldn't cut it at LT is pure foolishness driven entirely by his contract but he's still likely to be the best they've got.. Assuming he can get and stay healthy anyway. That's a big "if" in Jonah's case.

 

Oh well! :shrug: Can't just go down to Walmart.

 

 

quiet tim and eric GIF

 

It's going to be ok...if it's Jonah, Jackson, or image.jpeg.4f29471aa9ae56a7ee5dd4665328847f.jpeg

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10 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

But then who starts at RT? That would leave Collins that may not even be available or Carman who looked like he might be a decent backup LT but hasn't shown much else beyond that.

 

No secret I think handing the job to a guy that couldn't cut it at LT is pure foolishness driven entirely by his contract but he's still likely to be the best they've got.. Assuming he can get and stay healthy anyway. That's a big "if" in Jonah's case.

 

Oh well! :shrug: Can't just go down to Walmart.

 

I found it interesting that Ted Karras is definitely following the coaches' line about RT being an open competition, and not something that will just be given to Jonah. If he wants it he will have to earn it. Karras has been talking to Williams regularly, expects him to report to mandatory camp next month to start competing for the job.  

 

I also noticed the photo of Collins and Carman reporting to OTA practice yesterday. I really think Collins has taken well to his serious knee rehab, and is determined to make it back on the field this year. Also still claiming that his back, which hampered him much of last season, has never felt better.

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5 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

I think Collins beats out Jonah for the RT job. 

 

Jonah can be the 'Ginobli' 6th man of the OL ... there in case of injury.

 

Basically an expensive insurance policy. Because no other teams wants his ass at the current price. 

Even if he's having a good offseason rehab, there's no way Collins could be ready for the opener. His surgery was extensive, and it came very late in the season. I just wonder if Collins might be ready by the BYE week, which comes early this year. Who knows what the OL situation might be by then.

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59 minutes ago, dex said:

I found it interesting that Ted Karras is definitely following the coaches' line about RT being an open competition, and not something that will just be given to Jonah. If he wants it he will have to earn it. Karras has been talking to Williams regularly, expects him to report to mandatory camp next month to start competing for the job.  

 

I also noticed the photo of Collins and Carman reporting to OTA practice yesterday. I really think Collins has taken well to his serious knee rehab, and is determined to make it back on the field this year. Also still claiming that his back, which hampered him much of last season, has never felt better.

 

The Bengals could potentially have the deepest OT position in the NFL, with 4 guys who have started and played well at one point in time...now that is good a problem. 

 

If you have Brown at LT with Carman backing him up and Williams at RT with Collins backing him up that is quality depth, IMO. If anyone gets hurt the level of play doesn't fall of a cliff like it has in the past. 

 

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20 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

I think Collins beats out Jonah for the RT job. 

 

Jonah can be the 'Ginobli' 6th man of the OL ... there in case of injury.

 

Basically an expensive insurance policy. Because no other teams wants his ass at the current price. 

 

It was reported the Jags wanted him, so that's one team. The Bengals are smart to keep their players, especially guys that they have invested significant draft capital, playing time to develop, and real cash into. Getting rid of guys like Williams and Mixon might save them a few bucks on the salary cap but then you have real holes in your roster at positions of need, so is it really worth it? Obviously, the front office and coaching staff does see the benefit and I agree with that because once the season starts and the injuries start and shit gets real....then we're going to be happy to have those guys on the roster.

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9 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

It was reported the Jags wanted him, so that's one team. The Bengals are smart to keep their players, especially guys that they have invested significant draft capital, playing time to develop, and real cash into. Getting rid of guys like Williams and Mixon might save them a few bucks on the salary cap but then you have real holes in your roster at positions of need, so is it really worth it? Obviously, the front office and coaching staff does see the benefit and I agree with that because once the season starts and the injuries start and shit gets real....then we're going to be happy to have those guys on the roster.

 

Gentlemen, this is a great example of the "sunk cost" fallacy. 

 

I hope you'd agree we shouldn't still be starting Bobby Hart or Cedric Ogbuehi?

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6 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Gentlemen, this is a great example of the "sunk cost" fallacy. 

 

I hope you'd agree we shouldn't still be starting Bobby Hart or Cedric Ogbuehi?

 

Gentlemen, this a great example of a "strawman" fallacy...

 

Why are you pulling Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi out of nowhere to make a point no one is arguing?

 

Are you saying that Jonah is on the same level as Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi?

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2 hours ago, dex said:

I found it interesting that Ted Karras is definitely following the coaches' line about RT being an open competition, and not something that will just be given to Jonah. If he wants it he will have to earn it. Karras has been talking to Williams regularly, expects him to report to mandatory camp next month to start competing for the job.  

 

I also noticed the photo of Collins and Carman reporting to OTA practice yesterday. I really think Collins has taken well to his serious knee rehab, and is determined to make it back on the field this year. Also still claiming that his back, which hampered him much of last season, has never felt better.

 

Karras I believe, that's good to hear.

 

Collins could tell me the sun is in the sky and I would need a window in the room to be sure.

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55 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

Gentlemen, this a great example of a "strawman" fallacy...

 

Why are you pulling Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi out of nowhere to make a point no one is arguing?

 

Are you saying that Jonah is on the same level as Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi?

 

They are examples of playing a bad OL because they were invested in them. If Jonah was instead some random FA pickup making vet minimum & had been replaced, do you think they'd still be so hell bent on starting him at a new & unfamiliar position? A guy that's ended all but one season on IR and never been better than maybe-average when he was healthy?

 

They're determined to keep him on the field for money reasons.

 

Maybe he ends up kicking ass & RT is where he should've been all along but we both know this move isn't because he's been some great OT.

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Jonah was the best player on a bad OL in 2021.  It was also his only healthy season.  As a result, his 5th year option was picked up and guaranteed his 2023 salary.  Those are facts we can’t change.  His salary makes a trade more difficult and it makes zero sense to pay him just to go away.  
 

Obviously, his performance was poor last year and he suffered two dislocated knee caps which ultimately ended his season in the Wild Card round.  Rather than give him a pass, they replaced him at LT by spending big and are giving him a chance to compete at RT.  I don’t see anything about anointing him the starter or being hell bent to do so.  If anything, they’re purposefully not doing it by including Carman in the competition and keeping Collins around.  

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