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OL Offseason 2023


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11 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Certainly there are cheaper, better players available. The draft was full of them. Even at this late date, Cam Fleming is still available. He's never made more than 4 mil in a season but started 15 games last year. PFF graded him well above Jonah or Collins. Wouldn't it be nice to have a RT who is healthy and has played the position at a high level? The cap savings are just a bonus. 

i'm not sure of cam.  he is 30, and if the reports are right and he's was the best oL on a bad broncos OL last year,

isnt that exactly what we have in Jonah? the best of a bad OL?   but  before we say we can save 12 mil .... until someone takes him , and  whether we keep jonah or not his contract says we're paying him.  

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29 minutes ago, stryker57 said:

i'm not sure of cam.  he is 30, and if the reports are right and he's was the best oL on a bad broncos OL last year,

isnt that exactly what we have in Jonah? the best of a bad OL?   but  before we say we can save 12 mil .... until someone takes him , and  whether we keep jonah or not his contract says we're paying him.  

 

Can't they release him?

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2 hours ago, stryker57 said:

i'm not sure of cam.  he is 30, and if the reports are right and he's was the best oL on a bad broncos OL last year,

isnt that exactly what we have in Jonah? the best of a bad OL?   but  before we say we can save 12 mil .... until someone takes him , and  whether we keep jonah or not his contract says we're paying him.  

Apparently they're keeping him and honoring his contract..

Hoprfully he plays to that level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Can't they release him?


When the 5th-year option is picked up, the money is guaranteed.  Yes, they can release him, but they still have to pay him the $12+ million…so, unless he becomes a locker room cancer, there is no reason to release him.
 

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20 minutes ago, Cricket said:


When the 5th-year option is picked up, the money is guaranteed.  Yes, they can release him, but they still have to pay him the $12+ million…so, unless he becomes a locker room cancer, there is no reason to release him.
 

 

Oof.  Assuming he kicks ass though, where does that leave Collins? I suppose they'll just carry them both?

 

And if Carman beats them both for the spot? (which may happen just because he's the only one healthy enough to suit up.)

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Collins can be cut any time until week 1 with no financial consequence. Jonah would be hard to trade now, it should have been done before the draft. Carman is certainly the healthiest of the 3 and maybe will become the starter. Collins says all the right things but he tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL on Christmas eve. We shouldn't count on him being ready to go for week 1. Williams is still rehabbing from his kneecap surgery but should be ready by the start of training camp. But he's been injury prone thus far in his career, ending 3 of his 4 seasons on IR. 

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2 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Collins can be cut any time until week 1 with no financial consequence. Jonah would be hard to trade now, it should have been done before the draft. Carman is certainly the healthiest of the 3 and maybe will become the starter. Collins says all the right things but he tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL on Christmas eve. We shouldn't count on him being ready to go for week 1. Williams is still rehabbing from his kneecap surgery but should be ready by the start of training camp. But he's been injury prone thus far in his career, ending 3 of his 4 seasons on IR. 

 

 

I'd like to see Carman win out at RT and then Jonah can back up either OT spot.  Unfortunately I think there are 12 million reasons why Carman has the deck stacked against him.

 

I don't think they can cut Collins until he's cleared medically, which isn't likely to happen before week 1.  

 

I would be both surprised and impressed if they are willing to eat both of their salaries and bench them for Carman.  Mike Brown's Bengals wouldn't do that.

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28 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

I'd like to see Carman win out at RT and then Jonah can back up either OT spot.  Unfortunately I think there are 12 million reasons why Carman has the deck stacked against him.

 

I don't think they can cut Collins until he's cleared medically, which isn't likely to happen before week 1.  

 

I would be both surprised and impressed if they are willing to eat both of their salaries and bench them for Carman.  Mike Brown's Bengals wouldn't do that.

 

 

Rewatching some of the Buffalo game, Carman played well but there was more than one time that he could have been called for false starts, he was standing ready to block before the line moved right before it moved more than once.

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1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

I'd like to see Carman win out at RT and then Jonah can back up either OT spot.  Unfortunately I think there are 12 million reasons why Carman has the deck stacked against him.

 

I don't think they can cut Collins until he's cleared medically, which isn't likely to happen before week 1.  

 

I would be both surprised and impressed if they are willing to eat both of their salaries and bench them for Carman.  Mike Brown's Bengals wouldn't do that.

Mike Brown wouldnt..

 

The Blackburn women will give Zach 

the go ahead to start who he thinks is best to start..

 

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On 5/18/2023 at 10:53 AM, sparky151 said:

 

Even at this late date, Cam Fleming is still available. He's never made more than 4 mil in a season but started 15 games last year. PFF graded him well above Jonah or Collins. Wouldn't it be nice to have a RT who is healthy and has played the position at a high level?

 

Cam Fleming...are you serious. Just because PFF rates a player higher than another doesn't mean that NFL front offices and coaching staff rate him that way as well. If Fleming is so good then why is he currently a free agent and looking for a 5th team to play for?

 

Quote

Certainly there are cheaper, better players available. 

 

You can't be certain any rookie is better than Jonah, a former first-round pick that has started in 42 games and was the best player on a line that went to a Super Bowl. 

 

Quote

The draft was full of them.

 

The draft wasn't full of them, there were only 8 OTs drafted in the first 3 rounds of the draft. The reality is Jonah is the best option for the Bengals at RT until proven otherwise and he's not going to be traded, cut, etc. He's going to be listed as the starter going into camp and unless Carman beats him out he will be the starting RT this season. Embrace it and move on, saying things like Cam Fleming or some unnamed rookie is a better option than Jonah is just ridiculous. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Rewatching some of the Buffalo game, Carman played well but there was more than one time that he could have been called for false starts, he was standing ready to block before the line moved right before it moved more than once.

 

 

Yeah man, I'm by no means ready to crown his ass.  He didn't look completely outmatched and played with some attitude.  I've not seen much fire out of Jonah so that was nice but that's a long way from the new starting RT.  

 

10 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Mike Brown wouldnt..

 

The Blackburn women will give Zach 

the go ahead to start who he thinks is best to start..

 

 

I really hope that's the case.  No more Bobby Hart everybody take turns nonsense. 

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4 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

You can't be certain any rookie is better than Jonah, a former first-round pick that has started in 42 games and was the best player on a line that went to a Super Bowl. 

 

He was the least shitty player on a line that lost them a Super Bowl, let's be real.

 

Of course you can't be certain any rookie is better than anyone that's a proven starter.  That's a given.  Don't you think a healthy player to at least compete for the spot might have been nice, though?  I guess you've got more faith in either Carman or Jonah Williams blossoming as a RT than I do.  We'd be lucky if Jonah can make it through the season healthy, never mind how he plays, and that's no exaggeration.

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16 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

He was the least shitty player on a line that lost them a Super Bowl, let's be real.

 

Of course you can't be certain any rookie is better than anyone that's a proven starter.  That's a given.  Don't you think a healthy player to at least compete for the spot might have been nice, though?  I guess you've got more faith in either Carman or Jonah Williams blossoming as a RT than I do.  We'd be lucky if Jonah can make it through the season healthy, never mind how he plays, and that's no exaggeration.

 

You could say the same thing for any player as the risk of injury is significant for all of them. And yes, I do have faith that between Jonah, Jackson, or La'el that the Bengals will find someone that can play RT at a high enough level to help us win games. I believe in the front office to make the correct evaluations and the coaching staff to develop those guys and put them in a position to succeed. 

 

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2 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

You could say the same thing for any player as the risk of injury is significant for all of them. 

 

 

Not any player has ended 3 out of 4 seasons on IR.  Jonah is clearly higher risk than average.  

 

There's also one other little thing that seems to be getting overlooked, in that he's never played RT in the pros.  It's not just LT with a rubber band on the opposite wrist, it's not OT easy mode.  Unless JB is going to start throwing lefthanded it's a pretty big adjustment for a guy that, let's face it, hasn't been very good in the first place.

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1 hour ago, PatternMaster said:

 

Cam Fleming...are you serious. Just because PFF rates a player higher than another doesn't mean that NFL front offices and coaching staff rate him that way as well. If Fleming is so good then why is he currently a free agent and looking for a 5th team to play for?

 

 

You can't be certain any rookie is better than Jonah, a former first-round pick that has started in 42 games and was the best player on a line that went to a Super Bowl. 

 

 

The draft wasn't full of them, there were only 8 OTs drafted in the first 3 rounds of the draft. The reality is Jonah is the best option for the Bengals at RT until proven otherwise and he's not going to be traded, cut, etc. He's going to be listed as the starter going into camp and unless Carman beats him out he will be the starting RT this season. Embrace it and move on, saying things like Cam Fleming or some unnamed rookie is a better option than Jonah is just ridiculous. 

 

 

 

Here are stats for some NFL tackles from 2022. Which of these players would you want protecting Burrow?

 

Player A:

 

 

image.png.e77ef36b92e0b836a06dd927c142238e.png

 

 

Player B: 

 

image.png.413d934941df8c54c51887b350ede38e.png

 

 

Player C

 

image.png.1d0ea7ae2f16c87fb91d2ef8a6fc5b56.png

 

 

Which of these guys would you want to pay $12.6 million to?

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2 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

You could say the same thing for any player as the risk of injury is significant for all of them. And yes, I do have faith that between Jonah, Jackson, or La'el that the Bengals will find someone that can play RT at a high enough level to help us win games. I believe in the front office to make the correct evaluations and the coaching staff to develop those guys and put them in a position to succeed. 

 

Agree..

One will win the job and 

The other 2 gives the team.. Depth.

Long season ahead..

 

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1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

 

Here are stats for some NFL tackles from 2022. Which of these players would you want protecting Burrow?

 

Player A:

 

 

image.png.e77ef36b92e0b836a06dd927c142238e.png

 

 

Player B: 

 

image.png.413d934941df8c54c51887b350ede38e.png

 

 

Player C

 

image.png.1d0ea7ae2f16c87fb91d2ef8a6fc5b56.png

 

 

Which of these guys would you want to pay $12.6 million to?

 

I would take A because he's under contract and he's a certified glass eater that played with a dislocated knee. :ninja:

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55 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

I would take A because he's under contract and he's a certified glass eater that played with a dislocated knee. :ninja:

 

I think A should take a few more holding calls if it means not giving up a dozen sacks

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13 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

I would take A because he's under contract and he's a certified glass eater that played with a dislocated knee. :ninja:

 

That's an example of incumbency bias.

 

13 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I think A should take a few more holding calls if it means not giving up a dozen sacks

 

Ask and ye shall receive. Here are the 2022 stats for OBj:

 

image.png.34e21fd8985150597802878d10208904.png

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When we signed Brown there were some executives interviewed by The Athletic who weren't fans of the move (and some who were). The critics thought that Brown allowed too much pressure and Mahomes saved him from sacks with his mobility. They also thought Brown was a bit like Brady's blindside protector, Donovan Smith, who got away with holding that would have been called for other LTs. Ironically, the Chefs signed Smith to play LT.

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Yes, he's a big upgrade over Jonah. He's certainly a better run blocker and I'd say he's also a better pass protector. As long as he's not getting beat to the inside, Burrow can step up in the pocket. I predict on opening day the Browns will line Myles Garrett up at LDE to face Jonah as much as possible. OBj can handle Zadarius Smith, especially if the Bengals run at him a good bit. 

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3 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Yes, he's a big upgrade over Jonah. He's certainly a better run blocker and I'd say he's also a better pass protector. As long as he's not getting beat to the inside, Burrow can step up in the pocket. I predict on opening day the Browns will line Myles Garrett up at LDE to face Jonah as much as possible. OBj can handle Zadarius Smith, especially if the Bengals run at him a good bit. 

 

Bold prediction that Jonah will be starting at RT. I am not convinced.

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