New Stadium?

[WRAPradio]

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/building-new-bengals-stadium-isnt-completely-out-of-the-question-in-cincinnati-commissioners-say

 

Commissioners say building new Bengals stadium isn't completely out of question amid renovation discussions

Bengals' Katie Blackburn says she thinks Paycor Stadium can 'serve us well for a while longer'

By: Anna Azallion

Posted at 7:30 PM, Apr 11, 2023

 

and last updated 10:20 PM, Apr 11, 2023

CINCINNATI — The Hamilton County Commissioners gave an update on possible renovations that could be coming to Paycor Stadium during their meeting Tuesday afternoon.

Hamilton County taxpayers fund Paycor and the Bengals lease it from the county. That lease is set to expire in 2026, so as the county commissioners prepare for negotiations, they're also in the early stages of preparing renovation plans.

 

The county and the Bengals hired an outside firm, Gensler Sports, for a capital assessment. In May 2022, Gensler Sports said basic repairs to Paycor could cost more than $493 million. That includes fixing steel rails and ramps, replacing seats and upgrading electric and plumbing systems.

That number does not include a potential $200 million more for future upgrades like luxury lounges, high-end food or drink and new signs and scoreboards. WCPO obtained an early version of the master plan last summer, which had ideas like standing-room-only decks and drink rails, field goal and endzone cameras and changes to seating.

 

"Within five, six years, you will have been eclipsed by every other NFL stadium and the fans are not going to enjoy the experience," said Tom Gabelman, project counsel for Hamilton County.

Commissioners discussed their hopes to increase the use of the stadium for non-NFL events like concerts and integrate the stadium with The Banks and downtown more.

 

"We have an asset that costs us 365 days. We've got to have events happening as many days as possible," said Hamilton County Commissioner President Alicia Reece.

Gabelman said the hope is for the stadium to become "a vibrant of the community" — "It's not an island to itself that's only used on game day."

Building a new stadium isn't completely out of the question for the commissioners either. They asked Tuesday for the master plan to include options for a new stadium as well as for renovations to the current stadium so the county can see the costs for both options.

During the NFL's annual meetings, Bengals executive vice president Katie Blackburn said the team is planning to do some improvements themselves to show "that we're willing to invest a little bit of our own here."

“I think we have a great stadium. Our stadium has been a great asset to the area and we think if we can keep it up to a certain level it can serve us well for a while longer," Blackburn said. "(A new stadium is) a big project. And more power to Tennessee and New York for going that direction, but we feel our stadium has been a great asset and can be useful for a while."

The commissioners are wanting Gensler Sports to get the master plan to them before December. That plan will help in the decision-making process.

 

[WRAPradio]

I think the general consensus was the county got screwed in the last deal (I wasn't really tapped in so I don't know details).  I thought I heard they could fund PBS with a tax on hotel rooms (most likely visitors to the city) and alcohol.  Is that what the current deal is for Paycor?

[PatternMaster]

55 minutes ago, WRAPradio said:

I think the general consensus was the county got screwed in the last deal (I wasn't really tapped in so I don't know details).  I thought I heard they could fund PBS with a tax on hotel rooms (most likely visitors to the city) and alcohol.  Is that what the current deal is for Paycor?

 

Mike Brown finessed the county and hired the guy who was supposed to be working for on behalf of the taxpayers as a consultant immediately after he gave the Bengals a sweetheart deal, he got over big time on the small folk of Hamilton County. The Bengals don't need a new stadium, they just need to upgrade the one they have. It's basic af and needs some enhancements. 

[WRAPradio]

25 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

Mike Brown finessed the county and hired the guy who was supposed to be working for on behalf of the taxpayers as a consultant immediately after he gave the Bengals a sweetheart deal, he got over big time on the small folk of Hamilton County. The Bengals don't need a new stadium, they just need to upgrade the one they have. It's basic af and needs some enhancements. 

 

With renovations, do you think that price tag could get to the point where it makes sense to build vs renovate?  The going rate looks to be about $1.5B for new stadiums (excluding SoFi).  If our renovations were say $300M, based on the chart below (from https://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/comparisons/) we paid $450M for PBS.  Is it realistic to take that $300M and put it towards a $1B stadium vs fix up a 23 year old one?  Didn't the Brown family say they were footing the bill for renovations?

 

Name	Team(s)	Capacity	Turf	Cost
SoFi Stadium	Los Angeles Rams/Chargers	70,000	FieldTurf	$4.9 Billion
Allegiant Stadium	Las Vegas Raiders	65,000	Grass	$1.9 Billion
MetLife Stadium	New York Giants/Jets	82,500	FieldTurf	$1.6 Billion
Mercedes Benz Stadium	Atlanta Falcons	71,000	Fieldturf	$1.5 Billion
AT&T Stadium	Dallas Cowboys	80,000	FieldTurf	$1.3 Billion
Levi’s Stadium	San Francisco 49ers	68,500	Grass	$1.3 Billion
US Bank Stadium	Minnesota Vikings	66,200	Fieldturf	$1.1 Billion
Lucas Oil Stadium	Indianapolis Colts	67,000	Fieldturf	$720 Million
Soldier Field	Chicago Bears	61,500	Grass	$600 Million
Lincoln Financial Field	Philadelphia Eagles	67,594	Grass	$518 Million
University of Phoenix Stadium	Arizona Cardinals	63,400	Grass	$455 Million
Paycor Stadium	Cincinnati Bengals	65,515	Fieldturf	$450 Million
NRG Stadium	Houston Texans	71,795	Grass	$449 Million
Ford Field	Detroit Lions	65,000	FieldTurf	$430 Million
Empower Field	Denver Broncos	76,125	Grass	$364 Million
Lumen Field	Seattle Seahawks	68,740	FieldTurf	$360 Million
Gillette Stadium	New England Patriots	65,878	Fieldturf	$325 Million
FirstEnergy Stadium	Cleveland Browns	67,895	Grass	$290 Million
Nissan Stadium	Tennessee Titans	69,143	Grass	$290 Million
Acrisure Stadium	Pittsburgh Stealers	68,400	Grass	$281 Million
FedEx Field	Washington Commanders	79,000	Grass	$250 Million
Bank of America Stadium	Carolina Panthers	74,867	Grass	$242 Million
M&T Bank Stadium	Baltimore Ravens	71,008	Fieldturf	$220 Million
Raymond James Stadium	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	65,890	Grass	$194 Million
Superdome	New Orleans Saints	74,295	FieldTurf	$134 Million
TIAA Bank Field	Jacksonville Jaguars	67,264	Grass	$134 Million
Hard Rock Stadium	Miami Dolphins	65,326	Grass	$115 Million
Arrowhead Stadium	Kansas City Chiefs	76,416	Grass	$43 Million
Highmark Stadium	Buffalo Bills	71,608	FieldTurf	$22 Million
Lambeau Field	Green Bay Packers	81,441	Grass	$ 960,000

[|westside bengal|]

I do not live in Cincy so I have no skin in the game but I would be telling the BFT that until they win a Super Bowl I wouldn't pay a dime for renovations or new stadium.

[sparky151]

It would be far cheaper to simply update PBS rather than build a new palace. The Reds would no doubt also want similar upgrades for their park. Maybe another sales tax levy for 2 or 3 years would fly? Not sure how the public feels about the Bengals and the Brown family. 

[PatternMaster]

7 hours ago, WRAPradio said:

 

With renovations, do you think that price tag could get to the point where it makes sense to build vs renovate?  The going rate looks to be about $1.5B for new stadiums (excluding SoFi).  If our renovations were say $300M, based on the chart below (from https://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/comparisons/) we paid $450M for PBS.  Is it realistic to take that $300M and put it towards a $1B stadium vs fix up a 23 year old one?  Didn't the Brown family say they were footing the bill for renovations?

 

Name	Team(s)	Capacity	Turf	Cost
SoFi Stadium	Los Angeles Rams/Chargers	70,000	FieldTurf	$4.9 Billion
Allegiant Stadium	Las Vegas Raiders	65,000	Grass	$1.9 Billion
MetLife Stadium	New York Giants/Jets	82,500	FieldTurf	$1.6 Billion
Mercedes Benz Stadium	Atlanta Falcons	71,000	Fieldturf	$1.5 Billion
AT&T Stadium	Dallas Cowboys	80,000	FieldTurf	$1.3 Billion
Levi’s Stadium	San Francisco 49ers	68,500	Grass	$1.3 Billion
US Bank Stadium	Minnesota Vikings	66,200	Fieldturf	$1.1 Billion
Lucas Oil Stadium	Indianapolis Colts	67,000	Fieldturf	$720 Million
Soldier Field	Chicago Bears	61,500	Grass	$600 Million
Lincoln Financial Field	Philadelphia Eagles	67,594	Grass	$518 Million
University of Phoenix Stadium	Arizona Cardinals	63,400	Grass	$455 Million
Paycor Stadium	Cincinnati Bengals	65,515	Fieldturf	$450 Million
NRG Stadium	Houston Texans	71,795	Grass	$449 Million
Ford Field	Detroit Lions	65,000	FieldTurf	$430 Million
Empower Field	Denver Broncos	76,125	Grass	$364 Million
Lumen Field	Seattle Seahawks	68,740	FieldTurf	$360 Million
Gillette Stadium	New England Patriots	65,878	Fieldturf	$325 Million
FirstEnergy Stadium	Cleveland Browns	67,895	Grass	$290 Million
Nissan Stadium	Tennessee Titans	69,143	Grass	$290 Million
Acrisure Stadium	Pittsburgh Stealers	68,400	Grass	$281 Million
FedEx Field	Washington Commanders	79,000	Grass	$250 Million
Bank of America Stadium	Carolina Panthers	74,867	Grass	$242 Million
M&T Bank Stadium	Baltimore Ravens	71,008	Fieldturf	$220 Million
Raymond James Stadium	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	65,890	Grass	$194 Million
Superdome	New Orleans Saints	74,295	FieldTurf	$134 Million
TIAA Bank Field	Jacksonville Jaguars	67,264	Grass	$134 Million
Hard Rock Stadium	Miami Dolphins	65,326	Grass	$115 Million
Arrowhead Stadium	Kansas City Chiefs	76,416	Grass	$43 Million
Highmark Stadium	Buffalo Bills	71,608	FieldTurf	$22 Million
Lambeau Field	Green Bay Packers	81,441	Grass	$ 960,000

 

Paycor or PBS...whatever you want to call it has a nice frame, it just needs to be enhanced. You can tell they got the base model when it was built, but the core of the stadium is just fine. I would take whatever money and put it towards improving the UX of the stadium, more and better should be what the BFT is going after. Making the stadium more tech friendly, improving luxury boxes, etc...

[T-Dub]

7 hours ago, sparky151 said:

It would be far cheaper to simply update PBS rather than build a new palace. The Reds would no doubt also want similar upgrades for their park. Maybe another sales tax levy for 2 or 3 years would fly? Not sure how the public feels about the Bengals and the Brown family. 

 

You would think ordinary people would balk at buying a billionaire's sports team in a trillion dollar league full of millionaires a new stadium but somehow that's a normal thing so IDK. Who needs actual public-serving infrastructure or first responders after all?

[|High School Harry|]

So where would they build it?

[saphead]

When we kick the Reds out of town the new stadium can go where Great American BP once stood. 

[|High School Harry|]

15 minutes ago, saphead said:

When we kick the Reds out of town the new stadium can go where Great American BP once stood. 

The new soccer team is moving in there.

Speaking of new stadiums, sources close to the source tell me that the Washington WTF's were bought by a shadow

company and will be playing their games at a new stadium being built in Beijing and called The Chinese Reds.

 

Speaking of the Reds... is today Pete Rose's 82nd birthday?  You can bet on it.  He did.

[|BlackJesus|]

Random stadium-related thoughts 

 

- I think they should renovate PBS (Paycor) as the shape and design is iconic to me now. Also the location is perfect right where it is, so any new stadium should go right in that same location (which wouldn't be possible) unless they went to some other place for 2-3 years. 

 

- I hope the Bengals never get a dome or a roof. Football is supposed to be played outside. I would ban all domes if up to me. There is no way that a dome team wins that Buffalo playoff game last year, but a Bengals team without even a practice bubble for several seasons was right at home (with the exception of Tee who hated it). 

 

- The city of Cincinnati needs to realize that they have a very valuable product that many other cities would want, and if they were awarding NFL teams now Cincinnati might miss out entirely. Cincinnati is lucky that Mike Brown was an old school loyalty type guy, because if the team was bought by some hedge fund tech dickweed of Silicone valley, the Bengals would now be in playing in Toronto, Portland, Mexico City, London, who the hell knows where. 

 

- The success of the Bengals in the coming years and the Super Bowl wins is the best advertising that the city of Cincinnati could ever buy on the global stage. The amount of free publicity that they garnered when the Bengals made the SB must have been in the hundreds of millions - maybe billions when you consider that 1 commercial was like 5 million dollars and they played in the entire game. Now how much of that converts into tourism, businesses relocating, young people moving to Cincy is debatable, but it surely makes some kind of impact.

 

- If the Bengals ever left Cincinnati I would stop watching the NFL out of spite. A team is both its players and the city they play for and in. I could never see myself rooting for the Salt Lake City Bengals for instance, even if they had the same uniforms, players, etc. I have photos of me in a Bengals onesie after being born and the name on it is Cincinnati, (the city where both my parents, and grandparents etc were born). So even though I don't live in the city, the team is nostalgically connected to the place. So preventing relocation is a must for the future, as I would still like to be watching the "Cincinnati Bengals" in 30 years, when I am elderly and can barely see the screen of the 7D hologram TV. 

 

- I generally find the idea of billionaires offensive personally (without getting too political), but unlike most of the other rich assholes in the world that give me no enjoyment at all, NFL team owners at least give me a product to provide gratuitous distraction and joy (plus brings my family together). I wouldn't want a world without the Bengals in it. If that means that a wealthy owner gets a sweet deal from the city in a society where they already could get a sweet deal in 1,000 other ways -- then why choose the NFL hill to "die on" and take a stand.

 

- So in the case of a sales tax or some kind of general plan to help fund the stadium, it is probably just a reality that the city needs to do. I recognize I am speaking from outside the city and not paying it, but if I were living in Cincinnati I would also approve. I would even be willing to pay a 1% income tax on my pay for instance (since I'm a die hard fan), even though that idea would never pass or be suggested. I mean, our taxes already go to rebuild foreign places we first paid to blow up, and that doesn't even give us 17-20 game days a year of happiness.

[PatternMaster]

12 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

Random stadium-related thoughts 

 

 

 

 Cincinnati is lucky that Mike Brown was an old school loyalty type guy, because if the team was bought by some hedge fund tech dickweed of Silicone valley, the Bengals would now be in playing in Toronto, Portland, Mexico City, London, who the hell knows where. 

 

Cincinnati is lucky to have Mike Brown...that's rich...I think it goes the other way around. MB would have been run out of town in a few other markets, the people of this city supported his substandard product for decades out of loyalty. 

 

Quote

- The success of the Bengals in the coming years and the Super Bowl wins is the best advertising that the city of Cincinnati could ever buy on the global stage. The amount of free publicity that they garnered when the Bengals made the SB must have been in the hundreds of millions - maybe billions when you consider that 1 commercial was like 5 million dollars and they played in the entire game. Now how much of that converts into tourism, businesses relocating, young people moving to Cincy is debatable, but it surely makes some kind of impact.

 

I don't think many companies are moving to Cincy because of Super Bowl appearance and I know young people aren't either,  you're overselling the value it has for a city. Cincy isn't a tourist destination for most people for a lot reasons, same for KC, them winning SuperBowls isn't going change some college kids spring break plans or post-graduation plans. 

[sparky151]

Bengals aren't going anywhere. Ohio passed the "Modell" law after the Browns left so the Brown family would have to sell the team if they wanted to move and the city could find someone else to pay fair market value for them to remain. 

[membengal]

the soccer team has a brand new stadium near music hall. 

[WRAPradio]

3 hours ago, BlackJesus said:

Random stadium-related thoughts 

 

- I hope the Bengals never get a dome or a roof. Football is supposed to be played outside. I would ban all domes if up to me. There is no way that a dome team wins that Buffalo playoff game last year, but a Bengals team without even a practice bubble for several seasons was right at home (with the exception of Tee who hated it). 

 

 

I tend to agree that a dome team would have had a hard time winning in Buffalo last year, but a dome would bring so much more to the entire city.  Think concerts, political events, Superbowls, college football playoffs, etc.  I go back and forth on a dome, but I definitely can see the benefits for the Bengals and for the city.  Having a space like that could attract more businesses.

[WRAPradio]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

Bengals aren't going anywhere. Ohio passed the "Modell" law after the Browns left so the Brown family would have to sell the team if they wanted to move and the city could find someone else to pay fair market value for them to remain. 

 

Does Cincy have any billionaires?  Looks like we're worth about $3B now.  Here's a graph of the value over time (https://www.statista.com/statistics/194452/franchise-value-of-the-cincinnati-bengals-since-2006/#:~:text=The franchise value of the,million U.S. dollars in 1967😞

[WRAPradio]

Not to go down a rabbit hole, but when I saw $3B, I was thinking that had to be about the average for an NFL team...I was wrong.

 

Rank	Swing[a]	Team	Territory	Value[b]	Change[c]	Debt[d]	Revenue[e]	Operating Income[f]
#1		Dallas Cowboys	Texas	$8 billion	60%	4%	$1.087 billion	$466 million
#2		New England Patriots	Massachusetts	$6.4 billion	68.4%	3%	$651 million	$231 million
#3	1	Los Angeles Rams	California	$6.2 billion	93.8%	51%	$628 million	$203 million
#4	1	New York Giants	New Jersey	$6 billion	81.8%	8%	$584 million	$178 million
#5	2	Chicago Bears	Illinois	$5.8 billion	100%	2%	$520 million	$156 million
#6	1	Washington Commanders	Washington, D.C.	$5.6 billion	80.6%	13%	$544 million	$130 million
#7	1	New York Jets	New Jersey	$5.4 billion	86.2%	10%	$519 million	$136 million
#8	2	San Francisco 49ers	California	$5.2 billion	70.5%	5%	$575 million	$142 million
#9	9	Las Vegas Raiders	Nevada	$5.1 billion	110.7%	25%	$563 million	$116 million
#10		Philadelphia Eagles	Pennsylvania	$4.9 billion	78.2%	4%	$547 million	$145 million
#11	2	Houston Texans	Texas	$4.7 billion	67.9%	0%	$571 million	$211 million
#12	1	Denver Broncos	Colorado	$4.65 billion	75.5%	4%	$526 million	$143 million
#13	4	Miami Dolphins	Florida	$4.6 billion	78.6%	11%	$533 million	$160 million
#14	2	Seattle Seahawks	Washington	$4.5 billion	74.4%	4%	$518 million	$123 million
#15	3	Green Bay Packers	Wisconsin	$4.25 billion	61.9%	4%	$543 million	$138 million
#16	3	Atlanta Falcons	Georgia	$4 billion	53.8%	24%	$506 million	$172 million
#17	2	Pittsburgh Stealers	Pennsylvania	$3.975 billion	53.8%	5%	$494 million	$135 million
#18	1	Minnesota Vikings	Minnesota	$3.925 billion	63.5%	14%	$500 million	$141 million
#19	5	Baltimore Ravens	Maryland	$3.9 billion	50.8%	7%	$512 million	$127 million
#20	2	Los Angeles Chargers	California	$3.875 billion	70.3%	21%	$491 million	$156 million
#21	8	Cleveland Browns	Ohio	$3.85 billion	97.4%	6%	$510 million	$90 million
#22	2	Indianapolis Colts	Indiana	$3.8 billion	59.7%	6%	$484 million	$100 million
#23	1	Kansas City Chiefs	Missouri	$3.7 billion	76.2%	1%	$495 million	$119 million
#24	4	Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Florida	$3.675 billion	83.8%	5%	$492 million	$62 million
#25	4	Carolina Panthers	North Carolina	$3.6 billion	56.5%	6%	$501 million	$139 million
#26		New Orleans Saints	Louisiana	$3.575 billion	72.3%	7%	$490 million	$125 million
#27		Tennessee Titans	Tennessee	$3.5 billion	70.7%	10%	$481 million	$115 million
#28	3	Jacksonville Jaguars	Florida	$3.475 billion	67.1%	9%	$471 million	$114 million
#29	3	Buffalo Bills	New York	$3.4 billion	112.5%	12%	$470 million	$83 million
#30	7	Arizona Cardinals	Arizona	$3.27 billion	52.1%	5%	$467 million	$112 million
#31		Detroit Lions	Michigan	$3.05 billion	79.4%	8%	$452 million	$89 million
#32	2	Cincinnati Bengals	Ohio	$3 billion	66.6%	4%	$462 million	$114 million

[PatternMaster]

1 hour ago, WRAPradio said:

 

Does Cincy have any billionaires?  Looks like we're worth about $3B now.  Here's a graph of the value over time (https://www.statista.com/statistics/194452/franchise-value-of-the-cincinnati-bengals-since-2006/#:~:text=The franchise value of the,million U.S. dollars in 1967😞

 

I'm sure there are billionaires from Cincy, but they probably don't live there. If you had a billion+ dollars in your bank account would you live in Cincy?

 

Ken Oaks would be a great option if the Bengals were sold, local guy that knows how to build a billion dollar business from the ground up. 

[sparky151]

Yes, the Modell law doesn't require the new ownership to live locally, just to keep the team there. Billionaires have lots of residences and can easily buy a house in Indian Hill if need be. 

[|BlackJesus|]

5 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Bengals aren't going anywhere. Ohio passed the "Modell" law 

 

Most legal minds believe that the Modell law is unconstitutional though. It has just never been legally challenged.

 

From one article on it ... 

 

Quote

 

Is it Constitutional? 

Without the law being formally challenged, the answer is not 100% known. However, after a small analysis, it is likely that a court would find the law to not be constitutional as it violates the dormant commerce clause of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. In short, the commerce clause provides Congress the power to: “to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.” As the Cornell Legal Information Institute provides, within this clause, there is an implicit meaning which prevents states from “passing legislation that discriminates against or excessively burdens interstate commerce. Of particular importance here, is the prevention of protectionist state policies that favor state citizens or business at the expense of non-citizens conducting business within that state.” 

 

 

https://ublawsportsforum.com/2021/12/06/in-the-worst-case-scenario-could-the-art-modell-law-really-save-buffalo-maybe/

[claptonrocks]

3 hours ago, WRAPradio said:

I tend to agree that a dome team would have had a hard time winning in Buffalo last year, but a dome would bring so much more to the entire city.  Think concerts, political events, Superbowls, college football playoffs, etc.  I go back and forth on a dome, but I definitely can see the benefits for the Bengals and for the city.  Having a space like that could attract more businesses.

AFCN shouldnt have domes..

 

Its a tough nose division and thats a part of why it is..

 

 

 

 

[sparky151]

2 hours ago, BlackJesus said:

 

Most legal minds believe that the Modell law is unconstitutional though. It has just never been legally challenged.

 

From one article on it ... 

 

 

https://ublawsportsforum.com/2021/12/06/in-the-worst-case-scenario-could-the-art-modell-law-really-save-buffalo-maybe/

 

If the law were imposed retroactively, there would be issues but the Bengals accepted public support after the law was passed so that would likely prevent a challenge by the Brown family. In the event of a forced sale and disagreement over the price, I'd imagine it would be handled like other eminent domain cases and be put to a Hamilton County jury to decide on fair value. 

[|westside bengal|]

Folks need to understand that while the Bengals might float around the bottom of the NFL value list it still is one of the most valuable sports franchises in the world

[Cricket]

21 minutes ago, westside bengal said:

Folks need to understand that while the Bengals might float around the bottom of the NFL value list it still is one of the most valuable sports franchises in the world

Shoot!  I should have bought the team in the 90s when it was worth about $20,000.  🥷