Palestine and Israel

[claptonrocks]

43 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I would call refusing to vote because of this (very real & disturbing) issue - one that will not be improved at all by this decision - while ignoring the immeasurable harm that will be caused by that decision to so many other people - nothing but privileged.

 

I would call using photos of dead children to make your point stone-hearted bullshit. 

 

I can't seem to get my head around how ~20M voters decided sitting this one out would send any message other than a shocking level of apathy.

 

Your such a political drama queen.

The Israel mideast war has come to fruition between Israel and Iran.

I choose Israel.

Save me the tears when you cant recognize the homelessness in this country during to inflation set forth under Biden to demoralize  the weak into hopelessness.

Yes we have that torment with individuals here in America ..

 

 

[T-Dub]

2 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Your such a political drama queen.

The Israel mideast war has come to fruition between Israel and Iran.

I choose Israel.

Save me the tears when you cant recognize the homelessness in this country during to inflation set forth under Biden to demoralize  the weak into hopelessness.

Yes we have that torment with individuals here in America ..

 

 

 

 

Ah, so Gaza is still fucked but you've stopped inflation.  Can't wait to see the results at the grocery store! 

 

And homelessness too!  Strange how it's still around after the first Trump presidency, but I suppose that was also the Democrats fault.  But now it's fixed! Awesome!  If that happens I will gladly vote Republican in the next election..  because we're still going to have those, right?

 

[Homer_Rice]

4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

I would call refusing to vote because of this (very real & disturbing) issue - one that will not be improved at all by this decision - while ignoring the immeasurable harm that will be caused by that decision to so many other people - nothing but privileged.

 

I would call using photos of dead children to make your point stone-hearted bullshit. 

 

I can't seem to get my head around how ~20M voters decided sitting this one out would send any message other than a shocking level of apathy.

What kind of a mook would resurrect a dead thread only to take a swing at me, all because you are butt hurt about the democratic process?

 

You know, I've tried to patiently explain my reasons for not casting a Presidential ballot this time. They were sound reasons. As I said before, bottom line, neither party wanted my vote.

 

Once again, your twisted and warped view of the world is not mine. And though you are full of resentment because I (and millions like me) have at least some small measure of humanity left that I would not vote for this murder and mayhem, I forgive you. You are truly one fucked up, hateful dude, but I forgive you. There's a stain on your soul and frankly, that's your problem, not mine. Your inability to get your head around a lot of things is your problem, not mine. The fact that you cannot control yourself and instead need to act out like a child is your problem, not mine.

[T-Dub]

 

 

Did this actually help relieve Gaza in any way?

 

Are a whole lot of other innocent people now going to suffer for it?

 

Think the answer to both is obvious.  It's got nothing to do with me.

[Homer_Rice]

13 hours ago, T-Dub said:

Did this actually help relieve Gaza in any way?

 

Are a whole lot of other innocent people now going to suffer for it?

 

Think the answer to both is obvious.  It's got nothing to do with me.

Like always, you don't know how to ask the right questions. Somewhere in your fucked up mind there is the notion that if I and million of others who, for whatever reasons chose not to vote for Harris, who was the undemocratically nominated candidate of the Democratic Party, the world would be better. You are willing to accept the stain of all the blood that has been shed during this administration because you fear the candidate and program of the other party. Your soul is corrupt.

 

And mine has been corrupted, too. I've been around the Democratic Party since the late 70s, when Vietnam shaped a lot of the turmoil then. I cannot tell you how many times I accepted moral stains and held my nose for those assholes. And believe me, the young kids who were my peers then are the assholes fucking up this country and the world now. I've met some of them. They are not overly concerned about the truth if that gets in the way of seeking power. They are not too concerned with the common good unless they can raise money off of it. And again, as we can see, they do not care about the mountains of bodies they create in the world. All so they can live in their comfortable, petit-bourgeois , PMC fantasy world.

 

So, when the democratic process takes place, and there is a clear winner, instead of accepting it, among the first things you do is open up a dead thread and whine about people who find that genocide is so morally reprehensible that they made the decision that they would not get down in the mud with the pigs like Biden and Harris and you and vote for the fucking evil Democrats. If you want to accept this kind of moral compromise, then do so. It's your soul. But don't you dare chastise me for exercising my rights as a citizen in the way that I choose.

 

You do not have the moral standing to even consider griping about my choices. Worry about your own soul and if you don't like things, get off your dead ass and organize.

 

 

[T-Dub]

32 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

Like always, you don't know how to ask the right questions. Somewhere in your fucked up mind there is the notion that if I and million of others who, for whatever reasons chose not to vote for Harris, who was the undemocratically nominated candidate of the Democratic Party, the world would be better. You are willing to accept the stain of all the blood that has been shed during this administration because you fear the candidate and program of the other party. Your soul is corrupt.

 

And mine has been corrupted, too. I've been around the Democratic Party since the late 70s, when Vietnam shaped a lot of the turmoil then. I cannot tell you how many times I accepted moral stains and held my nose for those assholes. And believe me, the young kids who were my peers then are the assholes fucking up this country and the world now. I've met some of them. They are not overly concerned about the truth if that gets in the way of seeking power. They are not too concerned with the common good unless they can raise money off of it. And again, as we can see, they do not care about the mountains of bodies they create in the world. All so they can live in their comfortable, petit-bourgeois , PMC fantasy world.

 

So, when the democratic process takes place, and there is a clear winner, instead of accepting it, among the first things you do, is open up a dead thread, and whine about people who find that genocide is so morally reprehensible that they made the decision that they would not get down in the mud with the pigs like Biden and Harris and you and vote for the fucking evil Democrats. If you want to accept this kind of moral compromise, then do so. It's your soul. But don't you dare chastise me for exercising my rights as a citizen in the way that I choose.

 

You do not have the moral standing to even consider griping about my choices.

 

 

 

 

Hey you're hardly alone in that decision.  I know a number of people that are of the opinion that this country is fundamentally broken from the jump - most of them indigenous or mixed, for what that's worth.  They'd say we're founded on slavery and genocide, rotten from the foundation.  Maybe they're right about that.

 

So all our souls are corrupt, great, that's not really something I put much stock in.  I've never claimed to be an enlightened being of pure reason and compassion, or whatever ideal we're referring to here.  Let's set that aside because attacking me or the state of my eternal damnation is a distraction at best.

 

Fact is, we were presented with 2 options.  Both shitty, no question, but one very clearly and demonstrably worse.  I believe in harm reduction so I went with the one that, for her many faults that I've been vocal about myself, I thought would do the least amount of harm.  I sorely wish we had an actual progressive Dem candidate , or for that matter an actual fiscal Conservative instead of some fundamentalist Christian pandering from a dude banging porn stars and raping children behind the back of his pregnant wife, that is comically the furthest thing from conservative by any normal definition.  I wish we didn't have a 2 party system, or the gerrymandering and Electoral College that give them a stranglehold on power.  None of that shit mattered though, any more than my moral standing. 

 

I was willing to accept the harsh reality of the options available to me.  One of these 2 people was going to be POTUS regardless of what you or I did.  I'm sick to death of this lesser evil stuff too, but that's where we're at.  It sucks, I hate it, but that's the best anyone could do - try to lessen the amount of evil that would be done in our names.  That doesn't mean I support evil, it means I was left to choose between more or less, or do nothing.

 

What did doing nothing accomplish?  Much as I understand being sick of the whole process, particularly if you've been dealing with it for that much longer, I don't see refusing to participate as some moral high ground.  Consider the possibility that I'm capable of understanding something and disagreeing with it.

 

I'm not trying to insult you personally, I'm not in here calling you sick or hateful or whatever the fuck so maybe you could show me the same courtesy. I simply think this in particular was a bad decision, unfortunately echoed by millions of people, and this thread is where the topic was being discussed.  

 

 

[Homer_Rice]

Well, we strongly disagree. You had more than 2 options, but I suspect that you didn't knock on doors, nor go to meetings, nor try to shape policy in a more humane fashion. So, don't give me this bullshit. What it comes down to is that you are miffed that I exercised my rights as a citizen in a way that you dislike. Tough shit. This blood is on your hands, not mine.

[T-Dub]

23 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

Well, we strongly disagree. You had more than 2 options, but I suspect that you didn't knock on doors, nor go to meetings, nor try to shape policy in a more humane fashion. So, don't give me this bullshit. What it comes down to is that you are miffed that I exercised my rights as a citizen in a way that you dislike. Tough shit. This blood is on your hands, not mine.

 

Political party meetings, no.  There are a few groups I'm involved with but the main one I've supported is mostly focused on homeless outreach.  I came across this dude in the city over the Summer when it was hovering around 120f that was passed out, sunburned and had mostly stripped.  We (me and some other kinda sketchy dude who I honestly think might have been contemplating robbing the guy) got him onto some cardboard in the shade of a bus shelter so he wasn't on the hot pavement, got him some ice from the corner store but I was on my way to the hospital with stuff for my parents so couldn't really stick around for too long.  Asked around and found these guys as an alternative to calling the police directly, some of them have EMT training and yeh..  I'm not really about calling the police on people in crisis unless they're a clear threat to others.  I don't live in the city but I've been learning from them about what to carry in my car & finding things they can use like old bicycles etc that people give away.

 

Recently came across this other couple that have a rural farm and have set up an NPO that works with other small farms to gather produce they give away at some of the little community centers around.  They're a lot more insular, as rural folks tend to be, so I'm kind of in that building trust phase of just showing up and trying to help them get the word out.  Learning how to grow shit in the desert.  Kicking them a few bucks here & there when I can.  There are a lot of seniors around me and the nearest produce aisle is about 45 minutes away so it's a pretty cool thing they're doing.

 

As you might have gathered homelessness and food insecurity are where I feel like I can do some direct good.  Harm reduction, again.  Not that I should have to justify myself here but so you know where I'm coming from & that I'm not just some keyboard warrior sitting on my ass.  I'm not much for rallies and speeches and handing out literature for people to throw away.  In my estimation people have more pressing needs where I have the privilege and opportunity to help. 

 

All that aside, yeah, it is tough shit.  It's going to continue to be tough shit for a lot more people now.  As citizens of this country the blood is on all our hands so at least I'm in good company.  If there was a "stop selling bombs to everyone" ballot option that would've been great.  Lacking that I'm just trying to do the best I can with what's actually available to me.  Doing nothing was not it.  I'm genuinely sorry you felt it had come to that.

 

 

 

 

[Homer_Rice]

My last comments on this topic.

 

You keep characterizing my positive decision to not support the Harris ticket as doing nothing. And then you admit that you did nothing. Such bullshit. You had the chance to get out on the streets and support your candidate. But you did not. I did do something. I refused to vote for genocide. While you, and every other Democrat that voted for the ticket this time, not only voted for genocide but you voted for more genocide. It's going on right now with the complicity of the very people you chastise me for not voting for. That was the positive effect of casting your ballot.

 

This fucked up, crazy, reverse felicific calculus is so, so wrong. And you really are misplacing your anger when you take the loss of your candidate out on me and people like me. Take responsibility. Not only for the fact that you did not campaign hard enough for your candidate, but also that you felt it necessary to compromise your soul in overlooking the vileness in which you share some complicity. This blood is on your hands and not mine.

 

Finally, consider that you have been a dupe for these crass politicians. Last week, Donald Trump was a fascist. This week, both Biden and Harris are congratulating him for winning the election. As I said before, I think Trump will be Andrew Jackson levels of bad as a President, and he is certainly a terrible human being. And if, as is likely, he continues the same policy outlook on Palestine as the Democrats, then every Republican who cast a ballot for that ticket will have voted for more genocide, too.

 

The oligarchical uniparty thinks of you as meat and you are a fool if you believe otherwise. So, my final advice to you, T-Dub, is this: protect your soul, nobody else is going to do it for you.

 

 

[Jamie_B]

Homer, honest question here friend to friend.

 

I completely agree with you that we should be in the streets working on this. But we are also looking at a reality that both parties have supported this pretty much forever. AIPAC after the gun lobby, may be the most powerful lobby in Washington.  We can look at a few examples just this election of candidates that went up against them and lost. Cori Bush, and Jamal Bowman. I'm sure that there were a miriad of reasons they lost, but AIPAC spent an ungodly amount of money to ensure they did.

 

How do you defeat that?

[T-Dub]

On 11/8/2024 at 10:09 AM, Jamie_B said:

Homer, honest question here friend to friend.

 

I completely agree with you that we should be in the streets working on this. But we are also looking at a reality that both parties have supported this pretty much forever. AIPAC after the gun lobby, may be the most powerful lobby in Washington.  We can look at a few examples just this election of candidates that went up against them and lost. Cori Bush, and Jamal Bowman. I'm sure that there were a miriad of reasons they lost, but AIPAC spent an ungodly amount of money to ensure they did.

 

How do you defeat that?

 

I saw where Pepsico just bought up a bunch of struggling BDS targets, Sabra being one I had to quit cold turkey.  Nowadays I get down to a fantastic halal market in the city that makes anything off the shelf of a chain grocery seem like dog food but to answer your question:

 

They care about their money to the exclusion of all else. It's about making Israel poisonous to anyone supporting them financially or politically. They're grabbing more land in the Golan and destroying Syrian military & infrastructure at whim now. They're completely off the chain & I won't be surprised when OPEC members start raising hell.

 

Then of course, speaking of, the hardcore fundie white nationalist Y'all Qaeda types want WW3 in the Middle East because they believe in the Holy Land, crusades, the literal interpretation of a goulash of poorly-translated Scripture  recompiled & re-edited by the Vatican as recently as 1997, etc.

 

That belief, I think, being why a right-wing candidate is not vulnerable to the same political pressure over said issue.  

 

Which brings us back to C.R.E.A.M.

 

*Full ownership ofSabra/Odela and buying SodaStream, but there were a few others. I'll keep digging for the original article I read.

 

 

 

 

I want to acknowledge that obviously some of these can be hard to avoid & some of the alternatives aren't much better. However, these megacorps are easily rattled because they're about infinite growth. If we stop using any one of their products, even resolve to use an alternative when we have the option, they do notice. Use their feedback spam and comments sections against them. It will get removed but they tally all that kind of shit internally and it does add up even if it's censored publicly.  1,000 people cancelling Prime might not seem like it would matter to a company worth a bazillion dollars, but that's just how greedy these fucks have gotten. They're not happy with the bazillion, they're mad because they lost a dollar.

 

[claptonrocks]

On 12/21/2024 at 3:32 PM, T-Dub said:

 

I saw where Pepsico just bought up a bunch of struggling BDS targets, Sabra being one I had to quit cold turkey.  Nowadays I get down to a fantastic halal market in the city that makes anything off the shelf of a chain grocery seem like dog food but to answer your question:

 

They care about their money to the exclusion of all else. It's about making Israel poisonous to anyone supporting them financially or politically. They're grabbing more land in the Golan and destroying Syrian military & infrastructure at whim now. They're completely off the chain & I won't be surprised when OPEC members start raising hell.

 

Then of course, speaking of, the hardcore fundie white nationalist Y'all Qaeda types want WW3 in the Middle East because they believe in the Holy Land, crusades, the literal interpretation of a goulash of poorly-translated Scripture  recompiled & re-edited by the Vatican as recently as 1997, etc.

 

That belief, I think, being why a right-wing candidate is not vulnerable to the same political pressure over said issue.  

 

Which brings us back to C.R.E.A.M.

 

*Full ownership ofSabra/Odela and buying SodaStream, but there were a few others. I'll keep digging for the original article I read.

 

 

 

 

I want to acknowledge that obviously some of these can be hard to avoid & some of the alternatives aren't much better. However, these megacorps are easily rattled because they're about infinite growth. If we stop using any one of their products, even resolve to use an alternative when we have the option, they do notice. Use their feedback spam and comments sections against them. It will get removed but they tally all that kind of shit internally and it does add up even if it's censored publicly.  1,000 people cancelling Prime might not seem like it would matter to a company worth a bazillion dollars, but that's just how greedy these fucks have gotten. They're not happy with the bazillion, they're mad because they lost a dollar.

 

I'll stop supporting Disney..

Already have.

[Jamie_B]

Hostage deal has been reached

[CincyInDC]

51 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Hostage deal has been reached

 

Oh, has Israel given up on their genocide?

 

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, CincyInDC said:

 

Has Israel given up on the genocide?

 

 

That part I dont know

[claptonrocks]

18 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

Hostage deal has been reached

Hamas knew once Trump takes command, t He would 

enact a policy to destroy them.

They decided to free hostages due to it.

 

Biden was in on it and I applaud his effort as well.

Reminds me of Cater-Reagan situation with Iranian

hostages..

 

Glad to see a truc...

 

 

[Jamie_B]

1 minute ago, claptonrocks said:

Hamas knew once Trump takes command, t He would 

enact a policy to destroy them.

They decided to free hostages due to it.

 

Biden was in on it and I applaud his effort as well.

Reminds me of Cater-Reagan situation with Iranian

hostages..

 

Glad to see a truc...

 

 

glad for a cease fire but it sounds from some of the stuff I am hearing is that its a cease fire to give hostages back then Isreal gets to return to the genocide. I'm not sure how that helps anything.

[T-Dub]

19 hours ago, CincyInDC said:

 

Oh, has Israel given up on their genocide?

 

 

Fuuuuck no. Saw reports they were bombing heavily overnight, right up to the 11th hour. Their apartheid policies will continue. The evictions of Palestinian families will continue. Disappearances, torture, their land grab in the Golan.. All business as usual. They'll continue to do whatever the hell they want covertly inside the framework of the ceasefire and redirect the brute force to anyone not protected by it.

 

Because of Trump, let's say. If his cult wants to credit every drop of rain as issued by Divine Will from his Holy Mushroom, we may as well blame all our woes on him too, right?  If forest fires are somehow the fault of the Radical Left then Hamas is now Donny's fault. It's only fair.

[claptonrocks]

5 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

glad for a cease fire but it sounds from some of the stuff I am hearing is that its a cease fire to give hostages back then Isreal gets to return to the genocide. I'm not sure how that helps anything.

I don't think Israel will to that after talks with Trump on it.

He wants it Over..

No more bloodshed unless Iran starts theiir shit again.

 

[claptonrocks]

4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Fuuuuck no. Saw reports they were bombing heavily overnight, right up to the 11th hour. Their apartheid policies will continue. The evictions of Palestinian families will continue. Disappearances, torture, their land grab in the Golan.. All business as usual. They'll continue to do whatever the hell they want covertly inside the framework of the ceasefire and redirect the brute force to anyone not protected by it.

 

Because of Trump, let's say. If his cult wants to credit every drop of rain as issued by Divine Will from his Holy Mushroom, we may as well blame all our woes on him too, right?  If forest fires are somehow the fault of the Radical Left then Hamas is now Donny's fault. It's only fair.

Nice optimistic response from you..

 

 

 

[Jamie_B]

56 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

I don't think Israel will to that after talks with Trump on it.

He wants it Over..

No more bloodshed unless Iran starts theiir shit again.

 

 

I think you're going to be surprised 

[T-Dub]

6 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

Nice optimistic response from you..

 

 

 

 

yeah I guess after roughly 3000 years of religious warfare one has their doubts, but sure maybe Trump will fix it

[claptonrocks]

10 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

yeah I guess after roughly 3000 years of religious warfare one has their doubts, but sure maybe Trump will fix it

Netonyahu met with his security cabinet today and they gave the green light to stop the war.

 

[claptonrocks]

16 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

I think you're going to be surprised 

I think it will happen.

His cabinet approved it.

We can only hope that Trumps involvement 

will bring this to an agreement both sides will honor 

[Jamie_B]

6 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

I think it will happen.

His cabinet approved it.

We can only hope that Trumps involvement 

will bring this to an agreement both sides will honor 

 

This war has been going on since the dawn of time, they are not going to stop because Trump wants them to. In fact do not be surprised if it picks up again after the hostage exchange and Trump doesn't change policy or put any pressure on Netanyahu. In fact don't be surprised if it gets worse. And this is not me hating on Trump, this is by is own words and appointments. He told Bibi to finish the job, he has appointed Hegseth for DOD Sec who is strongly in favor of what Isreal is doing (in fact he was an Iraq war apologist). He has made Huckabee the Ambassador to Isreal, Huckabee doesn't recognize the West Bank by his own words. (Which from what I have been reading the plan is to completely take the West Bank after the exchange)

 

"There are certain words I refuse to use. There is no such thing as a West Bank. It's Judea and Samaria. There's no such thing as a settlement. They're communities. They're neighborhoods. They're cities. There's no such thing as an occupation. The only occupiers were the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Turks, the Brits, the Romans. They were occupiers. The Jews are the occupants." - Mike Huckabee, Trump's nominated ambassador to Israel.

 

 

This is going to go as well for the Palestinians as it did for the Kurds.

 

Trump will abandon them. He will support what is genocide.