Im not sure Chase Brown should be a part of our long term plans. Chronic fumble problem?

[-GoBengals-]

With learning more of Browns fumble issues in college bleeding over to the nfl. if thats not something thats fixable, im not sure he can be part of the future plans, and this coming in the season before whats being discussed at the deepest RB class in any draft the last 20 years, it sounds like a 3rd round pick will land you a first round talent RB in the upcoming draft.

 

Brown is a dynamic runner, a little undersized to carry a full load, so it comes down to what dedication do you have to keeping a fumble riddled accent back vs spending a 3rd round pick for a clear upgrade?

 

also is there any case history of RB's with a past of fumble problems who figured that shit out and stopped fumbling?

 

other general thoughts?

[LostInDaJungle]

Regardless... Chase Brown is going to be an expendable piece.

IMHO, the Bengals need a bigger back that can get the tough yards who can also play in the passing game as both a blocker and an outlet. The "Gio Bernard" role is optional. And traditionally they've let those guys go rather than pay market price on a "backup" position.

The failure of the Zack Moss experiment has been more of a story. IMHO, the Bengals see Brown as a lightning back, but their offense requires the starter to be a bit more "thunder". We play in the AFC North, not the AFC West.

I just don't think that the Bengals are going to place a high value on that position. Zack Moss has been a bust, so RB is going to be a priority to draft next year regardless. Traveon Williams is even commanding a vet salary... The room could be cheaper and younger. Unless there's a WR or pass rusher that really gets our nipples tingling... I think RB is a Day1/Day2 need and smart move.

[Jamie_B]

3rd down back imo

 

Give him the Gio Benard role

[-GoBengals-]

16 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Regardless... Chase Brown is going to be an expendable piece.

IMHO, the Bengals need a bigger back that can get the tough yards who can also play in the passing game as both a blocker and an outlet. The "Gio Bernard" role is optional. And traditionally they've let those guys go rather than pay market price on a "backup" position.

The failure of the Zack Moss experiment has been more of a story. IMHO, the Bengals see Brown as a lightning back, but their offense requires the starter to be a bit more "thunder". We play in the AFC North, not the AFC West.

I just don't think that the Bengals are going to place a high value on that position. Zack Moss has been a bust, so RB is going to be a priority to draft next year regardless. Traveon Williams is even commanding a vet salary... The room could be cheaper and younger. Unless there's a WR or pass rusher that really gets our nipples tingling... I think RB is a Day1/Day2 need and smart move.

 

the moss experiement wasnt as much a failure as he needed to play 2nd LG for us more often than we had likely hoped. his blocking has been PHENOMINAL and VITAL to the pass game, he just has the reverse problem, where his rushing has been lack luster, but frankly it seems clear thats due to him working a bit too much and too hard in the blocking game. having to full force block or help block LB's and fat DT's certainly takes some razzle dazzle out of your energy for rushing, as he isnt a very large back either. Herbert would be the ideal siz and combo, but he has a fairly unfortunate single rushing attempt last week. 

 

1 minute ago, Jamie_B said:

3rd down back imo

 

Give him the Gio Benard role

 

gio was a great blocker, he cant have that role.

[Cricket]

Cricket (4/29/23, in the draft thread):

 

“My concern with ball security with him [Brown] came solely from watching his highlight reels, before hearing/seeing any stats in that regard.  It just looked like a ball waiting to be punched out.  He just needs to cover up the ball a bit more in traffic.”

 

🦗

[-GoBengals-]

On 11/17/2024 at 7:08 PM, Cricket said:

Cricket (4/29/23, in the draft thread):

 

“My concern with ball security with him [Brown] came solely from watching his highlight reels, before hearing/seeing any stats in that regard.  It just looked like a ball waiting to be punched out.  He just needs to cover up the ball a bit more in traffic.”

 

🦗

 

 

 

undersized, ball security issues, likely why he was a 5th round pick.. and the CFL drafted him thinking he would be cut from NFL teams.

 

never seen a player drafted by both leagues.. i admittedly havent been looking though.

[Le Tigre]

All things considered, he looked quite lively the other night. No one can doubt his cat-quick acceleration to whatever crease he has. He also never stops running.
 

Find another one like him.  

[dex]

6 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

All things considered, he looked quite lively the other night. No one can doubt his cat-quick acceleration to whatever crease he has. He also never stops running.
 

Find another one like him.  

Co-sgn.

 

The Bengals have a lot of problems, but Chase Brown ain't one.

[Arkansas Bengal]

He isn't fucking going anywhere.

[-GoBengals-]

41 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

All things considered, he looked quite lively the other night. No one can doubt his cat-quick acceleration to whatever crease he has. He also never stops running.
 

Find another one like him.  

 

I agree, he is an electric player, he just cant be the guy. he can only be A guy.

 

22 minutes ago, Arkansas Bengal said:

He isn't fucking going anywhere.

 

 

I would agree, jest aside, he isnt, but he isnt someone to even consider being #1 RB he is undersized and cant take the beating, especially in the AFN, i think he can be a long term spot contributor. But he needs to cap out at about 15-ish snaps per game. he will have the occasional 150 all purpose yards, 2 TD game, but his shortcomings leave us in need of a regular, well rounded, reliable back to take the majority of the snaps, IMO

[|High School Harry|]

1 hour ago, GoBengals said:

 

 

 

undersized, ball security issues, likely why he was a 5th round pick.. and the CFL drafted him thinking he would be cut from NFL teams.

 

never seen a player drafted by both leagues.. i admittedly havent been looking though.

FWIW and Minor point but back in the Stone Age Paul Brown drafted

Georgia OT Mike Wilson even thought he had committed to the CFL.

4th round pick and Mike would probably have been a 1st rounder if he had not already committed.

The thinking was he will come down to the states eventually and we would have a 1st rounder cheap.

Wilson was the ORT on the other side of Munoz, former OT Max Montoya was moved to ORG.

Worked pretty well.

Mike Wilson has always been on my All Overlooked and Underrated Bengal team.

Not playing one-upmanship... I was always a Mike Wilson fan.

 

[MichaelWeston]

5 hours ago, Arkansas Bengal said:

He isn't fucking going anywhere.

Yeah, I don't get this. He's the most explosive back we've had since I can remember and isn't undersized. 

[-GoBengals-]

4 hours ago, High School Harry said:

FWIW and Minor point but back in the Stone Age Paul Brown drafted

Georgia OT Mike Wilson even thought he had committed to the CFL.

4th round pick and Mike would probably have been a 1st rounder if he had not already committed.

The thinking was he will come down to the states eventually and we would have a 1st rounder cheap.

Wilson was the ORT on the other side of Munoz, former OT Max Montoya was moved to ORG.

Worked pretty well.

Mike Wilson has always been on my All Overlooked and Underrated Bengal team.

Not playing one-upmanship... I was always a Mike Wilson fan.

 

 

seems like it was a bit more wild back in the day, i know steve young before the merger was going to play in the UFL? its something you never hear about nowadays, closest thing is the baseball guys getting drafted by like the yankees but come play QB instead, Russell Wilson and Mahomes i think both?

[UncleEarl]

While there are exceptions, I don't think NFL teams should have "the guy" at RB anymore.  There aren't that many guys who are head a shoulders above everyone  else, and it's hard for any of them to stay healthy long term.  With that said, I think the Bengals have a good one with Chase Brown.  He weighs 211 lbs. if you believe Pro Football Reference.  I wouldn't say that's terribly undersized.  About the same as Christian McCaffrey.  Brown has fumbled twice in 175 touches.  Not horrible, but certainly worth watching.

 

I think Brown will be around and part of a tandem moving forward, which he should be.  Hopefully the Bengals can find more of a power back in FA or the draft.  Improving the interior line would go a long way toward making Brown look even better.

[Le Tigre]

12 hours ago, GoBengals said:

i know steve young before the merger was going to play in the UFL?

FUTURE NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young signed an unusual $40 million, $43-year contract during his early days.

However, there were circumstances that wiped the opportunity of himself earning the full amount of money.

 

Before becoming an iconic San Francisco 49ers signal-caller, BYU product Steve Young made the decision to join the United States Football League, also known as the USFL.

The USFL's LA Express was owned by J. William Oldenberger.

He offered Young a four-year contract worth $40 million.

And the deal would be payable over 43 years.

 

Young had the opportunity to be the No. 1 overall pick in the 1984 NFL Draft and be selected by the Cincinnati Bengals in the process.

However, the Bengals only offered him $3.5 million, per a 1984 article from Sports Illustrated.

The $3.5 million was also not guaranteed, and the youngster quarterback would obtain a $1 million signing bonus along with a five-year nonguaranteed contract at $500,00 per year.

 

Young opted to sign with the USFL's Express.

 

He received $4 million up front and five-figure base salaries for the following four years.

Once the contract was up, Young had the chance of securing $30 million over the next 37 years when he would be at the age of 65.

 

But the deal was set up an annuity and if Young had funded the annuity, he would've gotten a $1 million check in 2014.

And he would've gotten a bigger amount of money until the last year of the contract in 2027.

 

Young didn't fund the annuity and the USFL eventually went bankrupt.

He would end up making just $4.8 million in the USFL before entering the NFL in 1985 and signing with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. 

 

The 62-year-old currently has a net worth of close to $200 million.

 

 

 

 

[KA14_HOF]

FWIW, here's how Steve Young ended up with the Buccaneers despite the Bucs trading their #1 overall pick in the 1984 NFL Draft to Cincinnati. The timeline:

 

June 2, 1983 - Buccaneers trade their 1st Rd pick in the 1984 NFL Draft to Bengals for QB Jack Thompson.

 

Dec. 18, 1983 - Buccaneers lose to Lions to finish with NFL-worst 2-14 record (they "won" tie-breaker w/Oilers) securing the #1 overall selection in 1984 NFL Draft for Cincinnati.

 

Jan. 4, 1984 - USFL Draft. (19 Rounds) LA Express select Steve Young with #11 overall pick.

 

Mar. 5, 1984 - Steve Young signs with LA Express.

 

Apr. 4, 1984 - With Young signed by the Express, the Bengals then trade the #1 overall pick to New England for Patriots' two 1st Rd picks (#16 - DE Pete Koch and #28 - T Brian Blados), 10th Rd pick (#265 - RB Brent Ziegler) and 1985 5th Rd pick (#129 - DB Lee Davis).

 

May 1-2, 1984 - NFL Draft. Teams avoided selecting players who had already signed with USFL teams. New England drafted WR Irving Fryar* #1 overall. Cincinnati drafted QB Boomer Esiason with their 2nd Rd (#38) pick. Esiason was the first QB taken in the draft by any team. No team picked future Hall of Famers Steve Young, Gary Zimmerman or Reggie White, since each had already signed with a USFL team.

 

June 5, 1984 - Special NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL & CFL Players. (3 Rounds) This draft was set up so that teams would not waste picks in the prior regular draft on players who'd already signed with the USFL. It was also designed to avoid internal bidding wars for free agent players in the event that the USFL collapsed. (the inclusion of the CFL was largely window dressing in order to avoid legal entanglements for the NFL targeting USFL players who were under contract) The order for the draft was the same as for the prior regular draft, but these were considered entirely separate picks, meaning that the Buccaneers did not relinquish their #1 overall pick in this draft in the Jack Thompson deal.

 

Tampa Bay selected the rights to future-Hall of Fame QB Steve Young with the #1 overall pick. The Oilers chose RB Mike Rozier #2. The Giants took future-Hall of Fame guard Gary Zimmerman at #3 and subsequently traded his rights to Minnesota. The Eagles then picked future-Hall of Famer Reggie White at #4. The Bengals drafted at #7 and selected QB Wayne Peace who never took a single snap in the NFL.

 

 

* I have no idea what New England knew or didn't know about Fryar's involvement in the throwing of the famous 1984 Orange Bowl. (Fryar was paid $10,000 to throw the game. His 3rd down wide-open drop on what could've/should've been the game-tying TD in the final minute is one of the most painfully obvious intentional drops you will ever see. Nebraska ended up scoring the TD on 4th down, at which point Tom Osborne elected to go for the 2-point conversion and the win, even though a tie would've still secured the National Championship for Nebraska.)

[|High School Harry|]

4 hours ago, KA14_HOF said:

FWIW, here's how Steve Young ended up with the Buccaneers despite the Bucs trading their #1 overall pick in the 1984 NFL Draft to Cincinnati. The timeline:

 

June 2, 1983 - Buccaneers trade their 1st Rd pick in the 1984 NFL Draft to Bengals for QB Jack Thompson.

 

Dec. 18, 1983 - Buccaneers lose to Lions to finish with NFL-worst 2-14 record (they "won" tie-breaker w/Oilers) securing the #1 overall selection in 1984 NFL Draft for Cincinnati.

 

Jan. 4, 1984 - USFL Draft. (19 Rounds) LA Express select Steve Young with #11 overall pick.

 

Mar. 5, 1984 - Steve Young signs with LA Express.

 

Apr. 4, 1984 - With Young signed by the Express, the Bengals then trade the #1 overall pick to New England for Patriots' two 1st Rd picks (#16 - DE Pete Koch and #28 - T Brian Blados), 10th Rd pick (#265 - RB Brent Ziegler) and 1985 5th Rd pick (#129 - DB Lee Davis).

 

May 1-2, 1984 - NFL Draft. Teams avoided selecting players who had already signed with USFL teams. New England drafted WR Irving Fryar* #1 overall. Cincinnati drafted QB Boomer Esiason with their 2nd Rd (#38) pick. Esiason was the first QB taken in the draft by any team. No team picked future Hall of Famers Steve Young, Gary Zimmerman or Reggie White, since each had already signed with a USFL team.

 

June 5, 1984 - Special NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL & CFL Players. (3 Rounds) This draft was set up so that teams would not waste picks in the prior regular draft on players who'd already signed with the USFL. It was also designed to avoid internal bidding wars for free agent players in the event that the USFL collapsed. (the inclusion of the CFL was largely window dressing in order to avoid legal entanglements for the NFL targeting USFL players who were under contract) The order for the draft was the same as for the prior regular draft, but these were considered entirely separate picks, meaning that the Buccaneers did not relinquish their #1 overall pick in this draft in the Jack Thompson deal.

 

Tampa Bay selected the rights to future-Hall of Fame QB Steve Young with the #1 overall pick. The Oilers chose RB Mike Rozier #2. The Giants took future-Hall of Fame guard Gary Zimmerman at #3 and subsequently traded his rights to Minnesota. The Eagles then picked future-Hall of Famer Reggie White at #4. The Bengals drafted at #7 and selected QB Wayne Peace who never took a single snap in the NFL.

 

 

* I have no idea what New England knew or didn't know about Fryar's involvement in the throwing of the famous 1984 Orange Bowl. (Fryar was paid $10,000 to throw the game. His 3rd down wide-open drop on what could've/should've been the game-tying TD in the final minute is one of the most painfully obvious intentional drops you will ever see. Nebraska ended up scoring the TD on 4th down, at which point Tom Osborne elected to go for the 2-point conversion and the win, even though a tie would've still secured the National Championship for Nebraska.)

Good stuff.

Did not know that about Fryer throwing the game.

wow

[KA14_HOF]

7 hours ago, High School Harry said:

Good stuff.

Did not know that about Fryer throwing the game.

wow

 

If you watch the game, you can see it for yourself. The 3rd down play at the end of the game is one of the more egregious examples that was clearly caught by the cameras, although there were other plays that would make you think, "Hey, wait a minute..." even if you didn't know anything nefarious was going on. And it isn't to say that Fryar was the only player involved. He's just the only one I know for certain was involved.

 

I had it confirmed by 2 separate & unrelated sources, from 2 different parts of the country. Armen Keteyian also probed Fryar's roll in the '84 Orange Bowl corruption in his 1989(?) book, "Big Red Confidential." He became persona non grata in Nebraska circles for having the temerity to even suggest such a thing. But he wasn't wrong.

[HavePityPlease]

6 hours ago, KA14_HOF said:

 

If you watch the game, you can see it for yourself. The 3rd down play at the end of the game is one of the more egregious examples that was clearly caught by the cameras, although there were other plays that would make you think, "Hey, wait a minute..." even if you didn't know anything nefarious was going on. And it isn't to say that Fryar was the only player involved. He's just the only one I know for certain was involved.

 

I had it confirmed by 2 separate & unrelated sources, from 2 different parts of the country. Armen Keteyian also probed Fryar's roll in the '84 Orange Bowl corruption in his 1989(?) book, "Big Red Confidential." He became persona non grata in Nebraska circles for having the temerity to even suggest such a thing. But he wasn't wrong.

 

For those interested (looks pretty damned obvious, when have you ever seen a receiver have the ball hit their hands/arms then just drop their hands rather than try to grab at it?):

 

 

[claptonrocks]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:31 PM, LostInDaJungle said:

Regardless... Chase Brown is going to be an expendable piece.

IMHO, the Bengals need a bigger back that can get the tough yards who can also play in the passing game as both a blocker and an outlet. The "Gio Bernard" role is optional. And traditionally they've let those guys go rather than pay market price on a "backup" position.

The failure of the Zack Moss experiment has been more of a story. IMHO, the Bengals see Brown as a lightning back, but their offense requires the starter to be a bit more "thunder". We play in the AFC North, not the AFC West.

I just don't think that the Bengals are going to place a high value on that position. Zack Moss has been a bust, so RB is going to be a priority to draft next year regardless. Traveon Williams is even commanding a vet salary... The room could be cheaper and younger. Unless there's a WR or pass rusher that really gets our nipples tingling... I think RB is a Day1/Day2 need and smart move.

Definitely need a back as you stated.

Brown is a rotational back.

Second day looks about right.

Judkins from Ohio St would fit that capacity 

 

[KA14_HOF]

Thanks @HavePityPlease ... my bad, Fryar's drop came on 2nd down. But Jeff Smith's TD run was on 4th down. (4th-and-8, IIRC)

 

A purely personal suspicion I have is that on the crucial 2-point conversion, which failed, Fryar (who was on the field for the play) tipped off a Miami defender as to which direction the play was going. This, obviously, would expand the scope of the "fix."

 

Not having played organized football at a high level, I have to recognize that what may seem obvious to me may not be exactly how things actually work. But, from my understanding, when you are a defender, you have keys that you read & react to. I imagine this especially true and critical when defending the option, which Nebraska ran under Tom Osborne. You don't guess. You read & react. The play could go to either side, or it could be the fullback trap right up the middle. (which Ray Lewis & Warren Sapp found out the hard way in the Jan. '95 Orange Bowl)

 

If you guess, let's say you guess the play will go left, but they run it right, your defense will be outnumbered and you are going to get bulldozed and possibly give up a huge play. So if you're, say, a middle linebacker, at the snap of the ball, you've got someone on the Nebraska offense that you are keying on that's going to tell you which way you're going to move at the snap.

 

But if you watch the game-deciding 2-point conversion, the first person to move isn't a Cornhusker. Watch it frame-by-frame, and you'll see that the Miami MLB (I forget his name) starts moving to his left a split second before the ball is snapped. He wasn't reading & reacting to anything. The ball hadn't been snapped yet. My personal suspicion is that he wasn't guessing either. I suspect that Fryar had a way (touching his belt after the huddle, tugging on his jersey, adjusting his helmet, whatever) of telegraphing which way each play was going. If the defense knows a play is going right, left or up the middle, that makes defending the option exponentially easier to defend, since you now only have to defend half the field.

 

To my mind, there isn't a reason in the world for that Miami MLB to be moving left prior to the ball being snapped, unless he knew the play was going that direction. On the most critical play in the biggest game of the entire season, with a National Championship on the line, you don't start guessing. But if you definitely know which way the play is going, you may get a little antsy and "react" just a tiny bit prematurely in order to stop the play.

[KA14_HOF]

Apologies for going

 

I'll leave it there.

[-GoBengals-]

On 11/20/2024 at 6:04 AM, UncleEarl said:

While there are exceptions, I don't think NFL teams should have "the guy" at RB anymore.  There aren't that many guys who are head a shoulders above everyone  else, and it's hard for any of them to stay healthy long term.  With that said, I think the Bengals have a good one with Chase Brown.  He weighs 211 lbs. if you believe Pro Football Reference.  I wouldn't say that's terribly undersized.  About the same as Christian McCaffrey.  Brown has fumbled twice in 175 touches.  Not horrible, but certainly worth watching.

 

I think Brown will be around and part of a tandem moving forward, which he should be.  Hopefully the Bengals can find more of a power back in FA or the draft.  Improving the interior line would go a long way toward making Brown look even better.

 

i dont buy the 211, that puts him heavier than moss and looking at photos i dont buy it at all actually, thats only 9 lbs shy of joe mixon? LOLOL chase is about 192 if mixon is 220. the 3 inches height gain on mixon alone would cover 9 lbs weight difference, and mixon is a monster size wise in comparison.

 

i stick with my thought that he is good for 15-20 touches per game total, and id prefer those be in space, with that crazy quickness he has, the bigger talented back like Mixon was, are tougher to find that are good and reliable, the chase browns of the world are a dime a dozen out of the draft. so thats where i am coing from, if he is even a slight fumble risk, he can be repalce in the 4th round hell the 5th round some drafts.

 

1 hour ago, claptonrocks said:

Definitely need a back as you stated.

Brown is a rotational back.

Second day looks about right.

Judkins from Ohio St would fit that capacity 

 

 

both OSU backs would be a great fit, this draft is STACKED.. Jeanty is a beast as well. he will go first from whats being shown out there.