It Took 13 Weeks, But the Reality of Futility Has Finally Forced Its Way Into the Cincinnati Bengals Locker Room

[|SF2|]

2 minutes ago, A Rock said:

The players are trying to say the right things. Zac Taylor says the same Pollyanna bullshit every week, which gets more ridiculous every week. My point is the hierarchy (and I don't care if it's Mike Brown or the family dog) isn't DOING anything to address glaring needs on the roster. And that definitely includes the coaches. How can anybody witness the incredible talent, as well as the incredible ineptitude on the field and conclude anything other than the team is ran very poorly. Not just player shortcomings (though there are plenty). Systemically hamstrung.

I agree, my point is the players and coaches KNOW what is wrong.  
 

A coach isn’t going fire himself if he is PART of the problem.  The players and not going to raise their hand and admit they suck.  But both sure as hell know what the problems are.  
 

The trick is can they get management to act on it. 

[UncleEarl]

5 minutes ago, A Rock said:

The players are trying to say the right things. Zac Taylor says the same Pollyanna bullshit every week, which gets more ridiculous every week. My point is the hierarchy (and I don't care if it's Mike Brown or the family dog) isn't DOING anything to address glaring needs on the roster. And that definitely includes the coaches. How can anybody witness the incredible talent, as well as the incredible ineptitude on the field and conclude anything other than the team is ran very poorly. Not just player shortcomings (though there are plenty). Systemically hamstrung.

 

I think we are assuming too much.  I'm as guilty as anyone of blaming the Brown family.  Now, if they bring back Taylor and Anuromo...blame things on injuries, and do very little, well...let 'er fly! 

[Jamie_B]

10 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Defenses have bad weeks.  One of those 40 point games was against Detroit.  They are pretty good.  Zimmer is new there and deserves some time.  The Dallas D also held the Stealers, a traditionally weak offense, to 17 points. 

 

It's not the same. 

 

One bad week sure, two or more? They have also allowed 30+ points several times this season.

 

The reason I think it is very similar is that they have ONE guy on their D that can get to the passer and a bunch of mediocre guys otherwise. With a D coordinator that has had good defenses in the past.

[Jamie_B]

17 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I think we are assuming too much.  I'm as guilty as anyone of blaming the Brown family.  Now, if they bring back Taylor and Anuromo...blame things on injuries, and do very little, well...let 'er fly! 

 

 

The Browns do deserve some blame from the aspect of how they continue to not modernize with regard to contracts and the scouting department. Otherwise I do not believe we are stuck in the 90s, I think we are still stuck in the way they have done things since the Palmer era, until they show me otherwise.

[A Rock]

4 minutes ago, SF2 said:

I agree, my point is the players and coaches KNOW what is wrong.  
 

A coach isn’t going fire himself if he is PART of the problem.  The players and not going to raise their hand and admit they suck.  But both sure as hell know what the problems are.  
 

The trick is can they get management to act on it. 

Burrow is the only one I can imagine having any influence on management, but I have serious doubts. Remember when we lost the AFC championship game and everyone was like "better play on the o line and we're easily champions"? So the team signs OBJ (admittedly a big move) and everyone start planning the parades. Now this former Pro Bowler and Super Bowl champion is regarded as average on his better days. There's no fluidity with this team. Particularly during the actual season. It seems unthinkable that an NFL team wouldn't be scratching for every inch of improvement possible through intense self evaluation. Especially during the season. And how could that self evaluation not include addressing the fact that players tend to perform worse when they sign here? It just seems there's things stubbornly set in stone that are absolutely killing our chances to improve. Never trading draft picks for available players at positions of need is just one example. I hope you're right about there being more awareness behind closed doors than they're projecting, but that means the higher ups, and there's no precedent yet. 

[claptonrocks]

34 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Do they though? Or are we as fans overvaluing the talent that is on this team?

Do we have the talent,?

Absolutely not.

Aside from JB Chase Tee and Hendrickson, who would start for another team?

 

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Do we have the talent,?

Absolutely not.

Aside from JB Chase Tee and Hendrickson, who would start for another team?

 

 

 

I think Pratt and Wilson are above average, but everyone else on that D is not good. 

[claptonrocks]

Just now, Jamie_B said:

 

 

I think Pratt and Wilson are above average, but everyone else on that D is not good. 

As far as tackle stats both are up there because the Dline can't make stops.

Wilson can't cover and Pratt isn't great at it.

Id say average is giving them benefit if the doubt imho.

 

[UncleEarl]

59 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

One bad week sure, two or more? They have also allowed 30+ points several times this season.

 

The reason I think it is very similar is that they have ONE guy on their D that can get to the passer and a bunch of mediocre guys otherwise. With a D coordinator that has had good defenses in the past.

 

Are their DBs and LBs often lost?  On top of each other in coverage?  Cheating to try and do another player's job?  If so, I agree.  That's a coaching issue.

[Jamie_B]

54 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Are their DBs and LBs often lost?  On top of each other in coverage?  Cheating to try and do another player's job?  If so, I agree.  That's a coaching issue.

 

They just arent that good. 

[IKOTA]

Zac Taylor HAS to say “we’re not going to change things drastically” type BS. He’s literally trying to convince the powers that be that he should remain HC and making drastic changes isn’t the answer. He’s not speaking to the fans and reporters when he says these things. It’s actually a psychological tactic people in his position use. 

[LostInDaJungle]

NFL defense is hard... But it's not this hard.

Is this the least talented defense they've faced all year? Since 2018?? The Stealers... The struggling "pound the rock" Stealers just put up 40+ on this team.

 

So, if we buy the proposition that Lou is still a great coach, he just doesn't have the talent... Then you're telling me that the current Bengals defensive roster is the least talented (by far) they've faced in almost a decade. Across all teams, all situations.

I don't buy that for a second.

Sure we have some rooks and second year players... But give me a group of UDFA's and an offseason, and I can hold the Stealers to 39 or less. Not have them constantly gashing us for 20 yards a pop.

It's easy to say "He's been playing like crap, he's lousy", but the reality is that we do have good talent on this defense. And it's not just one guy getting picked on. Heck, outside of Reader, who was injured most of last year, we're bringing back the same guys with the addition of Stone and Bell. Why has this unit regressed so badly??

Good coaches, regardless of talent, don't have days like today. They certainly don't have an entire season of days like today. They certainly don't come out of the bye week looking like it's the first game of preseason.

So put down that copium, and come have a swig of my Haterade. Lou has got to go, and as of noon today, he's been our DC for 4 hours too long. End of story.

[Jamie_B]

13 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

NFL defense is hard... But it's not this hard.

Is this the least talented defense they've faced all year? Since 2018?? The Stealers... The struggling "pound the rock" Stealers just put up 40+ on this team.

 

So, if we buy the proposition that Lou is still a great coach, he just doesn't have the talent... Then you're telling me that the current Bengals defensive roster is the least talented (by far) they've faced in almost a decade. Across all teams, all situations.

I don't buy that for a second.

Sure we have some rooks and second year players... But give me a group of UDFA's and an offseason, and I can hold the Stealers to 39 or less. Not have them constantly gashing us for 20 yards a pop.

It's easy to say "He's been playing like crap, he's lousy", but the reality is that we do have good talent on this defense. And it's not just one guy getting picked on. Heck, outside of Reader, who was injured most of last year, we're bringing back the same guys with the addition of Stone and Bell. Why has this unit regressed so badly??

Good coaches, regardless of talent, don't have days like today. They certainly don't have an entire season of days like today. They certainly don't come out of the bye week looking like it's the first game of preseason.

So put down that copium, and come have a swig of my Haterade. Lou has got to go, and as of noon today, he's been our DC for 4 hours too long. End of story.

 

 

The unit wasn't that good last year either, this has been a 2 year issue it's just the wheels have finally fallen off.

 

CTB has regressed pretty badly (this one for me is the most disappointing, because he has been at least good enough to be a top CB2)

We were playing Newton a 5th rounder as the starter.

Logan Wilson was out so we played AGD who was brought back on a 1 year deal, guys that you drafted and resign to 1 year deals, are almost never good 

Both rookie DTs are getting significant time since Rankins, who has been a disappointment, is out

Stone was another FA miss

Vonn Bell is washed

After a promising rookie start, Jordan Battle may or may not just be a guy

Sam Hubbard has been playing injured but may be washed.

 

 

If you want to argue that guys regressing or the team not finding replacements in FA and the draft before the wheels fell off is coaching Ill agree, but the idea that other than Trey we have talent on the D i'm going to disagree, and suggest someone else is drinking the copium. 

 

And I say that suggesting that Pratt and Wilson are good LBs.

 

 

[UncleEarl]

1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

 

They just arent that good. 

I guess there are only a couple players that should even be on a NFL roster then.  I've watched Wilson and Hilton, two guys who have been here, be up each others ass in zone coverage.  This isn't just about talent.  Players don't know what to do, experienced players as well as rookies.  I'm not buying the "it's all on the players" theory one bit.  Sure, it's a part of it, but with the number of mistakes even I can see it is certainly on the coaches as well.  Bringing back the same guy as DC would be a mistake.

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

I guess there are only a couple players that should even be on a NFL roster then.  I've watched Wilson and Hilton, two guys who have been here, be up each others ass in zone coverage.  This isn't just about talent.  Players don't know what to do, experienced players as well as rookies.  I'm not buying the "it's all on the players" theory one bit.  Sure, it's a part of it, but with the number of mistakes even I can see it is certainly on the coaches as well.  Bringing back the same guy as DC would be a mistake.

 

You really believe that the guys who have been here for a few years in this system all of a sudden don't know what to do? Or are they over compensating and trying to do too much because the talent around them isnt doing their job? I find it hard to believe guys that have been here just forgot how to play the position in the same system they have been in for a few years.

 

Also Mike Hiton isnt the same player he once was at least in coverage either.

[UncleEarl]

16 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

You really believe that the guys who have been here for a few years in this system all of a sudden don't know what to do? Or are they over compensating and trying to do too much because the talent around them isnt doing their job? I find it hard to believe guys that have been here just forgot how to play the position in the same system they have been in for a few years.

 

Also Mike Hiton isnt the same player he once was at least in coverage either.

 

So they are doing it on purpose?  It's a coach's or manager's job to ensure their players/employees know what to do.  Period.  When established vets don't know what to do the arrow points straight at the coach. 

 

Hilton has diminished, but unless he has CTE I don't think he had forgotten how to do it, like Bell, he just can't do it as well as he used to.

[Jamie_B]

14 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

So they are doing it on purpose?  It's a coach's or manager's job to ensure their players/employees know what to do.  Period.  When established vets don't know what to do the arrow points straight at the coach. 

 

Hilton has diminished, but unless he has CTE I don't think he had forgotten how to do it, like Bell, he just can't do it as well as he used to.

 

No I think the Vets are in a position where some of them are washed, and some of them are having to do more than they should because the young guys we have have not come along.

 

Let me put it this way. 

 

What defensive player that we have drafted under the Taylor regime do you think is playing well?

[T-Dub]

4 hours ago, SF2 said:

I agree, my point is the players and coaches KNOW what is wrong.  
 

A coach isn’t going fire himself if he is PART of the problem.  The players and not going to raise their hand and admit they suck.  But both sure as hell know what the problems are.  
 

The trick is can they get management to act on it. 

 

Why would management act when they also suck? When the people at the top are inept nobody wants to be the one to start pointing fingers.  It's a culture of nepotism, everyone's conditioned to act like those above them are super awesome and those below them are all working hard to get better. We're all doing great and if not, it must be something out of our control but we'll get 'em next time.

 

4-8 and they're still talking like it's all going to come together for them any second now. 

[Griever]

[LostInDaJungle]

15 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

No I think the Vets are in a position where some of them are washed

So... Your argument is that Hilton, Bell, Hubbard, Pratt, Stone, Bell... All of these guys are "washed", and Lou didn't notice so he kept starting them every week? So that makes Lou a great coach who just lacks talent? Not the idiot who keeps putting a "washed" Mike Hilton in man coverage? 

It has to be noted that our defense isn't bad... It's HISTORICALLY bad. We are at the top of the pile for every team that had injuries greater than ours, talent weaker than ours, and circumstances worse than ours. Teams that were "rebuilding" instead of proclaiming themselves Super Bowl favorites. Teams that had not one solid edge rusher. And so on.

 

HISTORICALLY bad.

Just for reference... This was the talk before the season. No talk of Lou "having to make it work" with limited resources. https://sports.yahoo.com/cincinnati-bengals-defense-had-full-051141818.html

[|BlackJesus|]

30 minutes ago, Griever said:

 

I'm sure Lou is a good guy. But his time has passed. This team needs to clean house on defense. I appreciate his work in past years. But he's now being out-schemed every week. 

[|High School Harry|]

18 minutes ago, BlackJesus said:

 

I'm sure Lou is a good guy. But his time has passed. This team needs to clean house on defense. I appreciate his work in past years. But he's now being out-schemed every week. 

When you use the same scheme every week, week in, week out and don't make any adjustments, it ain't that hard.

[Jamie_B]

1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

So... Your argument is that Hilton, Bell, Hubbard, Pratt, Stone, Bell... All of these guys are "washed", and Lou didn't notice so he kept starting them every week? So that makes Lou a great coach who just lacks talent? Not the idiot who keeps putting a "washed" Mike Hilton in man coverage? 

It has to be noted that our defense isn't bad... It's HISTORICALLY bad. We are at the top of the pile for every team that had injuries greater than ours, talent weaker than ours, and circumstances worse than ours. Teams that were "rebuilding" instead of proclaiming themselves Super Bowl favorites. Teams that had not one solid edge rusher. And so on.

 

HISTORICALLY bad.

Just for reference... This was the talk before the season. No talk of Lou "having to make it work" with limited resources. https://sports.yahoo.com/cincinnati-bengals-defense-had-full-051141818.html

 

I'm starting to repeat myself based on the thread.

 

First I don't care about pre-season media that stuff is always overhyped.

 

Second Ill point to this response in the other thread.

 

And ask, what defensive player that has been drafted in the Taylor era do you think is playing good? Not one of the FAs that we went and got, not one of the guys that was a Marvin guy, but one that was drafted when Taylor was the HC and Lou the DC?

[sparky151]

It's pretty bad when the tv commentators point out the deficiencies as they happen. When Austin caught the touchdown vs Hilton yesterday, they said Hilton can't stick with fast receivers in man coverage. Probably got that from the Pittsburgh coaches. Then they said Fields would keep it on a bootleg before he did just that as the Bengals vacated his path. 

[LostInDaJungle]

1 minute ago, Jamie_B said:

And ask, what defensive player that has been drafted in the Taylor era do you think is playing good?

Ok... So what changed? Were Duke Tobin and Katie Blackburn not here during the Marvin years as well??

I mean... You almost couldn't prove my point any better. The same people keep buying the groceries... And the meal now tastes like shit. And you think the chef has nothing to do with it?

This isn't a situation where Lou is getting all he can from a handicapped unit. At best, he's struggling at a historic level with marginal talent, if you want to be generous. I don't think the talent is that marginal.  And given current results... I'm down for changing the chef and seeing if the meal improves. Period.

 

Again... This is shaping up to be one of the worst defenses since the merger in 1970. They're already setting records for "Since 2000"... Kevin Kaesviharn is seeing team records broken and we're the damn Bengals. Defending Lou Anarumo at this point is just ponderous. Because at this point the "Why" doesn't matter. Hell, keeping Lou is a tacit admission that the FO knows they hired all of the wrong guys, and an acceptance of this as being "good work" that gets you rehired.

Players get worse under Anarumo. From Geno Stone to CTB and Jordan Battle. FA's, draftees... Outside of one good year where Bates did a Pro-Bowl job of limiting the bleeding and the defense got credit for giving up a lot of yards but getting lucky with turnovers, Lou has been average at best. His damn specialty is DB's, and our secondary is a hot mess, and has been for two years.

Sure, maybe Katie is buying the store brand... But even then the mac and cheese shouldn't taste this bad, and I can tell when a steak is burned. Katie didn't leave the pubic hair in the coleslaw.