Blame Poor Season on Front Office

[BronxBengal]

Everyone talks about salary cap and how the Bengals manage it.  The issue about cap space is a secondary issue.  The main issue with this organization is all about present and future cash flows.  Cash is king when running a business.  The Brown family is adherent about dead money and impact on future cash flows which from a business point of view is a smart way to run a business.  This is true as long as you have the present cash flows to pay the bonuses upfront.  I don’t have the time or desire to look for the Bengals financial sheets.  I highly doubt they are open to the public but they should be since the team uses public funded money ( different discussion for another day).  
 

There are couple of ways to run a business and it appears the Bengals try to run the business based on cash and are adherent to long term debt.  My problem with this strategy is what assets do they really have mange, maintain and invest into?  Besides equipment what do they really have to depreciate?  You cannot write of and depreciate bonuses.  The Bengal brand is an asset, but you cannot maximize on the brand if you are considered a perennial loser.  If you can improve the brand value you won’t be able to collect on it if you don’t have investors to invest n the business.  
 

This is the point where I get very angry with the Brown family.  I do not know what the ownership structure looks like but I believe the Brown family owns 90% of the franchise.  I could be wrong.  The family is so insecure in getting outside investors because they will lose control.  Also, the NFL allowed private equity business to invest in the franchise.  The Brown family was the only franchise to vote against this.  Another example of their unwillingness to adjust to the changing business climate.  It too them over a decade to have stadium sponsorship.  I am very negative on the front office due to scars from the lost decade.  I fear we are approaching the same organizational futility unless the Brown family become smarter and innovative on how they run their business.

 

 I hope this can be a discussion and not personnel attaches on people who want to discuss.  I am a passionate decades long Bengal fan and I am tired as well as frustrated with the Brown family.  It takes a lot of cash from my pocket to go to a game.  I like to see meaningful games in December and not the type for draft position.

[Le Tigre]

Yours has been posted over the many years more times than sands on the shore. 
 

And take it from a 4-decades long season ticket holder…if you are looking at the money you spend on a profit/loss/investment—and this is for any sport/entertainment expenditure—you are destined for perpetual disappointment.

 

It’s a sunk cost. And even if one gets to experience a championship, it is so very short-lived. I know enough Yankee fans to know they couldn’t care less what Mantle or Gehrig did….heck, they don’t even care what Judge has done.
 

Enjoy it as much as possible.  

[-GoBengals-]

17 hours ago, BronxBengal said:

Everyone talks about salary cap and how the Bengals manage it.  The issue about cap space is a secondary issue.  The main issue with this organization is all about present and future cash flows.  Cash is king when running a business.  The Brown family is adherent about dead money and impact on future cash flows which from a business point of view is a smart way to run a business.  This is true as long as you have the present cash flows to pay the bonuses upfront.  I don’t have the time or desire to look for the Bengals financial sheets.  I highly doubt they are open to the public but they should be since the team uses public funded money ( different discussion for another day).  
 

There are couple of ways to run a business and it appears the Bengals try to run the business based on cash and are adherent to long term debt.  My problem with this strategy is what assets do they really have mange, maintain and invest into?  Besides equipment what do they really have to depreciate?  You cannot write of and depreciate bonuses.  The Bengal brand is an asset, but you cannot maximize on the brand if you are considered a perennial loser.  If you can improve the brand value you won’t be able to collect on it if you don’t have investors to invest n the business.  
 

This is the point where I get very angry with the Brown family.  I do not know what the ownership structure looks like but I believe the Brown family owns 90% of the franchise.  I could be wrong.  The family is so insecure in getting outside investors because they will lose control.  Also, the NFL allowed private equity business to invest in the franchise.  The Brown family was the only franchise to vote against this.  Another example of their unwillingness to adjust to the changing business climate.  It too them over a decade to have stadium sponsorship.  I am very negative on the front office due to scars from the lost decade.  I fear we are approaching the same organizational futility unless the Brown family become smarter and innovative on how they run their business.

 

 I hope this can be a discussion and not personnel attaches on people who want to discuss.  I am a passionate decades long Bengal fan and I am tired as well as frustrated with the Brown family.  It takes a lot of cash from my pocket to go to a game.  I like to see meaningful games in December and not the type for draft position.

 

nothing really said here makes any sense.

 

each franchise is handed, via revenue share, roughly $400,000,000 each season, and that number increases as the cap increases, the ENTIRE salary cap is given to nfl franchises. plus, what 140 million? to cover staff, operating expenses, etc. 

 

there is no longer an enforced rule of needed to escrow all guaranteed funds of contracts, there is an impossibility that the team wouldnt have the cash to pay a bonus or salary, as its 100% funded by revenue share.

 

the way NFL franchises are run varies greatly.  the more reactionary and over-reactionary a team is typically makes them an even poorer team.

 

Fans, like yourself and thousands of others, cant seem to separate how the team operated in 1996 from how they operate now. Even worse, fans cant seem to separate whats going on from a franchise success standpoint from that era, to this one.

 

in the past the team would make little to ZERO free agent moves what so ever, theyd give small bonus money, theyd give lower guarantees. this was a time when, if i recall, the revenue share covered less than 100% of the roster costs, so some things you said above COULD possibly be true, though they made enough money still to cover things, even with little to no fanbase support.

 

Its been proven over and over and over and over, for the last 15-20 years the team has paid many players incredibly well, what they dont do is overpay players to bring them in, or to keep them past their worth.

 

the list of free agents brought in year after year, and the fair market spending is UNDENIABLE. 

 

Trey hendrickson ( Best pass rusher in the nfl ?)

Vonn Bell first stint (paid well ,played well)

OBJ - Paid well, played well (but got hurt)

Chidobe Awuzie - paid well, played well

Mike HILTON - Paid well ,Played well

BJ Hill via trade - Paid well when extended, played well

Sheldon Rankins - paid well, hasnt panned out for shit, but there was no reason to think that would be the case

Geno Stone - see Rankins. signed away from a division foe, didnt pan out, no reason to think that would be the case

Vonn Bell again - lost a fucking step hols shit, but everyone was happy about this move, it didnt work out the second time.

Ted karras - paid well, worked out great, and extended again

Alex Cappa - paid well, played well, fell off some this year.

Zach Moss - looked good on paper, versatile above average blocker good pass catcher, didnt work out. 

Mike Geisecki - one of the more dynamic pass catching TE's in the nfl. great signing. worked out well.

DJ Reader - one of the best signings in team history. paid well, played well. hurt alot, walked away

Larry Oganjobi - paid well, played well, left in free agency.

 

and i dont wanna hear fans crying that the front office sucks, there are some grand fucking slams on this list. SEVERAL of them, no franchise is batting 1000 on free agents, shit happens, injuries, age, motivation, etc.

 

we can cry about not bringing back every great palyer the team has drafted as well, but there are so few positions, that paying a player top 3 for the position is going to work out in your favor, QB/WR/CB/ and maybe DE. there is a reason the Falcons have already had to restructure Jessie Bates deal and push money back and are now looking down the barrel at a $22,000,000 cap hit for Bates each of the next twp seasons. looking a lot like they have to restructure with another extension or walk away before the last year of the deal. (ps how are the falcons doing?)

 

lets play that game with reader, would have been huge to have, but he missed games all but one of his 4 seasons here, 11, 7, and 3 games in those 3 seasons. thats over a third of the seasons on average, so not dedicated funds and a spot to a guy who was turning 30, coming off a season ending injury, isnt a terrible idea..

 

now had we paid bates and DJ and kept both are we in the playoff s right now? probably. but thats easy to do after the fact.

 

its really tough to argue that the team isnt doing everything it can to build a winning team over a long period of time. 

 

Clark family owns 100% of the CHiefs. they have one of the best coaches in nfl history, theyve let expensive guys walk and its cost them, theyve wildly overpaid for some guys, they have failed at many draft picks,  but they have one of the probably top 3 coaches in the hsotory of the league, so its working out for them, before that the franchise was trash.

 

you can find every ownership and front office structure you want, and youll find a great and a terrible team within those structures. 

 

it really just doesnt make any sense that anything said above has anything to do with anything.

 

at the end of the day, these are billion dollar organizations with hundres of staff working on technology, data, stats, projections, trying to field the best possible team they can.

 

and only 1 gets to win a championship. more than 10% of this league has never even BEEN TO a superbowl.  youre in a small market, and undesireable place to live for MOST millionaire players and their wives & families. and youve been to 3 superbowls and another AFCC.

 

14 nfl teams have been to less superbowl than the bengals, thats nearly half the league.

 

youre team, in the last 3 seasons, has been to the superbowl and another AFCC game. and you said you want to go to meaningful games in december. cmon man. half of the last 4 seasons have been to the highest point you can possibly get or a field goal away from it.

 

the pitty party is getting old with this fanbase. 

 

no franchise is perfect. every single team thats had a wild run has had an equally terrible one. its not 1996, lets stop acting like it is, eh?

[Le Tigre]

7 hours ago, GoBengals said:

Clark family owns 100% of the CHiefs. they have one of the best coaches in nfl history, theyve let expensive guys walk and its cost them, theyve wildly overpaid for some guys, they have failed at many draft picks,  but they have one of the probably top 3 coaches in the hsotory of the league, so its working out for them, before that the franchise was trash.

 

Demure looking fellow...only worth around $28B

 

Is also doing the winning thing, while working in a 52-year old stadium (albeit renovated 4 times)...and with no real reason to "upgrade" it to zillion dollars projects or replacement. 

[claptonrocks]

10 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

 

Demure looking fellow...only worth around $28B

 

Is also doing the winning thing, while working in a 52-year old stadium (albeit renovated 4 times)...and with no real reason to "upgrade" it to zillion dollars projects or replacement. 

H.L. Hunt 

Wasn't he the owner who brought the leagues together?

 

[Dautcom08]

14 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

 

Demure looking fellow...only worth around $28B

 

Is also doing the winning thing, while working in a 52-year old stadium (albeit renovated 4 times)...and with no real reason to "upgrade" it to zillion dollars projects or replacement. 

 

Kansas Lawmakers Pass Stadium Plan for Chiefs, Royals in Potential Move from Missouri

 

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mcdowell/article295576414.html

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/chiefs-set-six-month-deadline-to-decide-future-with-arrowhead-stadium

[Le Tigre]

1 hour ago, claptonrocks said:

H.L. Hunt 

Wasn't he the owner who brought the leagues together?

 

Along with Ralph Wilson and Tex Schram. 
 

(The photo is of Clark Hunt…the son)

[claptonrocks]

2 minutes ago, Le Tigre said:

Along with Ralph Wilson and Tex Schram. 
 

(The photo is of Clark Hunt…the son)

I think H.L. son Lemar was the driving force

I remember when they were the Dallas Texans then moved to KC.

Long ago lol 

[Homer_Rice]

I, for one, actually like the way the Bengals F.O. does business for many of the reasons Go cited. They'll never fall into a hellscape like the Cleveland Browns.

 

I blame the poor season on the players. Very early on, even during camp, I had this niggling feeling that many players acted as though they were entitled. Like they were resting on past laurels. Add in the injuries to the D-line at the beginning of the year and they never really got off the schneid--even to this day.

 

I was encouraged to hear Burrow more or less say, "Let's find out who wants to be here." So long as that is taken as actionable by the coaches and F.O. we'll find that next years team is a bit more focused and in the present.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

Interesting tidbit on Siruis radio today from a Chiefs insider. He said the playrs KNOW they do not have the best lineup in the league so they KNOW they have to be excellent at systems and they rely on the excellent coaches to make good calls in close games. 

 

Being good entails multiple components - players, coaches, systems, etc. 

[claptonrocks]

5 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

I, for one, actually like the way the Bengals F.O. does business for many of the reasons Go cited. They'll never fall into a hellscape like the Cleveland Browns.

 

I blame the poor season on the players. Very early on, even during camp, I had this niggling feeling that many players acted as though they were entitled. Like they were resting on past laurels. Add in the injuries to the D-line at the beginning of the year and the never never really got off the schneid--even to this day.

 

I was encouraged to hear Burrow more or less say, "Let's find out who wants to be here." So long as that is taken as actionable by the coaches and F.O. we'll find that next years team is a bit more focused and in the present.

Good point.

Tonight game is going to be a passing frenzy

O/U at 48.5...

5.5 spread.

I think the 48.5 is very doable with the defenses both giving up 28 per game.

Odds that JB tosses 3 TD seems a good pick as well.

 

[sparky151]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:09 AM, BronxBengal said:

Everyone talks about salary cap and how the Bengals manage it.  The issue about cap space is a secondary issue.  The main issue with this organization is all about present and future cash flows.  Cash is king when running a business.  The Brown family is adherent about dead money and impact on future cash flows which from a business point of view is a smart way to run a business.  This is true as long as you have the present cash flows to pay the bonuses upfront.  I don’t have the time or desire to look for the Bengals financial sheets.  I highly doubt they are open to the public but they should be since the team uses public funded money ( different discussion for another day).  
 

There are couple of ways to run a business and it appears the Bengals try to run the business based on cash and are adherent to long term debt.  My problem with this strategy is what assets do they really have mange, maintain and invest into?  Besides equipment what do they really have to depreciate?  You cannot write of and depreciate bonuses.  The Bengal brand is an asset, but you cannot maximize on the brand if you are considered a perennial loser.  If you can improve the brand value you won’t be able to collect on it if you don’t have investors to invest n the business.  
 

This is the point where I get very angry with the Brown family.  I do not know what the ownership structure looks like but I believe the Brown family owns 90% of the franchise.  I could be wrong.  The family is so insecure in getting outside investors because they will lose control.  Also, the NFL allowed private equity business to invest in the franchise.  The Brown family was the only franchise to vote against this.  Another example of their unwillingness to adjust to the changing business climate.  It too them over a decade to have stadium sponsorship.  I am very negative on the front office due to scars from the lost decade.  I fear we are approaching the same organizational futility unless the Brown family become smarter and innovative on how they run their business.

 

 I hope this can be a discussion and not personnel attaches on people who want to discuss.  I am a passionate decades long Bengal fan and I am tired as well as frustrated with the Brown family.  It takes a lot of cash from my pocket to go to a game.  I like to see meaningful games in December and not the type for draft position.

 

The Brown family owns all but 1 share of the team. There are about 586 shares in total with the one share held by Dutch Knowlton's lawyer. The way Mike Brown squeezed the other shareholders in the 90s is pretty scandalous but he basically forced them to sell their shares to him.

 

The salary cap is considered a "hard" cap in that all money spent on player salaries eventually shows up there. But it's pretty flexible and there are various mechanisms to move money around from one year to another. The Bengals are extremely unagressive in working the salary cap. So they are never in cap trouble but also never all-in. There's always room to spend more for better talent. 

 

The problem is the ownership and front office are wedded to practices that are suboptimal. The hardest thing to find in the NFL is an elite QB. The Bengals have that, due to some luck. But they don't build on it. The coaches are average at best and while the team spends a lot of money, the overall roster isn't especially good.

[T-Dub]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:41 AM, Homer_Rice said:

I, for one, actually like the way the Bengals F.O. does business for many of the reasons Go cited. They'll never fall into a hellscape like the Cleveland Browns.

 

I blame the poor season on the players. Very early on, even during camp, I had this niggling feeling that many players acted as though they were entitled. Like they were resting on past laurels. Add in the injuries to the D-line at the beginning of the year and they never really got off the schneid--even to this day.

 

I was encouraged to hear Burrow more or less say, "Let's find out who wants to be here." So long as that is taken as actionable by the coaches and F.O. we'll find that next years team is a bit more focused and in the present.

 

Very much agree about "resting on their laurels" and, I mean.. they don't really have any laurels to begin with. All they've done is lose a Super Bowl. That's not a great excuse for complacency, but I got the same vibe.

 

I also hope finding out who wants to be here counts for more than who has years left on their contracts. Sometimes it appears they'd rather pay a bad player $10M in the last year of his contract than eat the $2M in dead money and try to replace him with someone better. 

[alleycat]

29 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I also hope finding out who wants to be here counts for more than who has years left on their contracts. Sometimes it appears they'd rather pay a bad player $10M in the last year of his contract than eat the $2M in dead money and try to replace him with someone better. 

This is where they are most in need of taking that next, evolutionary (away from Paleolithic Mike Brown). 

 

Players are competitors at heart, and want the press release that calls them "highest paid ever" or whatever. They want to cache of getting that big deal. Be willing to give it, but with the understanding that those kind of deals will be performance based. We aren't going to pay you like the best player if you don't play like the best player. Beacuse that's the other side of that agreement. We're paying you as the best, be the best. 

 

Historically, we've played it the other way, honored the deal (to feel good about ourselves as good guys, I guess) and have suffered competitively as a result.

[Jamie_B]

Something Chase said about keeping him Joe and Tee last night "they just have to play chess" made me think the 3 of them are talking about the front office making the contracts work and how they go about that might mean the team has to modernize in how they do contracts

[T-Dub]

44 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Something Chase said about keeping him Joe and Tee last night "they just have to play chess" made me think the 3 of them are talking about the front office making the contracts work and how they go about that might mean the team has to modernize in how they do contracts

 

The hang-up I see here is getting Tee to accept that he is on the next level below Ja'Marr. That's really good, but it's not the best in the NFL. He's also missed a number of games. 

 

There are teams out there willing to ignore all that because they don't even have a WR on the level below Tee. If he's looking for the maximum payday above all else, which is perfectly valid if so, that's not going to be with the Bengals.

[sparky151]

For what it's worth, Spotrac says fair value for Tee is less than 19 mil per year. They have his comps as guys making in the upper 20s but discount his pay by a good bit due to all the snaps he misses from injury.

[dex]

8 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

 

 

The salary cap is considered a "hard" cap in that all money spent on player salaries eventually shows up there. But it's pretty flexible and there are various mechanisms to move money around from one year to another. The Bengals are extremely unagressive in working the salary cap. So they are never in cap trouble but also never all-in. There's always room to spend more for better talent. 

 

The problem is the ownership and front office are wedded to practices that are suboptimal. The hardest thing to find in the NFL is an elite QB. The Bengals have that, due to some luck. But they don't build on it. The coaches are average at best and while the team spends a lot of money, the overall roster isn't especially good.

This sums it up all too well. Yes, smart teams move money around from one year to another. The Eagles, for example, have a cap specialist who knows how to create extra cap space without endangering the team's long term cap health. They do this because they are always all-in trying to win. They are as aggressive at working the salary cap as the Bengals are stubbornly unaggressive. It is maddening. 

[Jamie_B]

3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

The hang-up I see here is getting Tee to accept that he is on the next level below Ja'Marr. That's really good, but it's not the best in the NFL. He's also missed a number of games. 

 

There are teams out there willing to ignore all that because they don't even have a WR on the level below Tee. If he's looking for the maximum payday above all else, which is perfectly valid if so, that's not going to be with the Bengals.

 

IIRC the rumor was Higgins was looking for a contract just above Michael Pittman Jr.'s

[claptonrocks]

On 12/9/2024 at 1:49 PM, I_C_Deadpeople said:

Interesting tidbit on Siruis radio today from a Chiefs insider. He said the playrs KNOW they do not have the best lineup in the league so they KNOW they have to be excellent at systems and they rely on the excellent coaches to make good calls in close games. 

 

Being good entails multiple components - players, coaches, systems, etc. 

That's why they pay the great Andy Reid 20 mil per.

He's a difference maker.

[claptonrocks]

4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Very much agree about "resting on their laurels" and, I mean.. they don't really have any laurels to begin with. All they've done is lose a Super Bowl. That's not a great excuse for complacency, but I got the same vibe.

 

I also hope finding out who wants to be here counts for more than who has years left on their contracts. Sometimes it appears they'd rather pay a bad player $10M in the last year of his contract than eat the $2M in dead money and try to replace him with someone better. 

Reaching out he SB is a huge achievement but the ensuing yrs we've watch the collapse of the a interior Dline.

Can't stop the run?..your fucked 

[Duluoz]

The whole Mike Brown thing is so old and tired it makes me cringe when a poster decides to trot it out like it's something new and inciteful...give it a rest for god's sake.

[claptonrocks]

11 minutes ago, Duluoz said:

The whole Mike Brown thing is so old and tired it makes me cringe when a poster decides to trot it out like it's something new and inciteful...give it a rest for god's sake.

As late ng as he's the Owner, his name will pop-up regardless of his active status in club operations.

He gave the keys to Katy but he's still alive ..

 

[T-Dub]

4 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

Reaching out he SB is a huge achievement but the ensuing yrs we've watch the collapse of the a interior Dline.

Can't stop the run?..your fucked 

 

 

Sure it is but I want to see a team that's pissed off and act like they got robbed, not taking their foot off the gas because they think they've arrived. 

 

This franchise still hasn't got a ring.  Joe & Ja'Marr seem like they're still hungry, the rest of these guys..  IDK, sometimes, here and there.

[UncleEarl]

14 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

That's why they pay the great Andy Reid 20 mil per.

He's a difference maker.

 

Yes, but he and his assistants have to convince the players to buy in.  Winning Super Bowls makes that easier.  It appears the Bengals defense is struggling to buy in along with any talent issues.