Pratt wants out.

[dex]

20 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

5th for a 28 yr old vet under Lous system would be fair on both sides 

Make it happen 

They are unlikely to give up a 7th round pick for Pratt. Too much salary for subpar production at a non-premium position.

[Inigo Montoya]

This feels like when you want to break up and she brings it up before you get a chance.  
 

I thought Pratt had a decent chance to return due to the other glaring issues with the defense.  It seems like Golden is also ready to move on and I don’t really have a problem with it.

[T-Dub]

17 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

This feels like when you want to break up and she brings it up before you get a chance.  
 

I thought Pratt had a decent chance to return due to the other glaring issues with the defense.  It seems like Golden is also ready to move on and I don’t really have a problem with it.

 

 

Sounds reasonable enough to me too, only wondering who it is they think they're moving on to though.

[claptonrocks]

Just now, T-Dub said:

 

 

Sounds reasonable enough to me too, only wondering who it is they think they're moving on to though.

James Pierce..😎

[claptonrocks]

25 minutes ago, dex said:

They are unlikely to give up a 7th round pick for Pratt. Too much salary for subpar production at a non-premium position.

I don't see 7.5 per as an Unreasonable rate .

What compensatory round would the Bengals get ?

[MichaelWeston]

7 hours ago, Griever said:

So if Pratt is dealt or eventually cut, where does that leave us...Wilson, A.D.G., Bachie, Njongmeta, Hayward? Need to get better here.

ADG and Bachie are both free agents. 

[Cricket]

Didn’t Pratt ask to be traded last year (or was it the year before?)?

 

 

[claptonrocks]

47 minutes ago, MichaelWeston said:

ADG and Bachie are both free agents. 

Makeable signings.

 

[LostInDaJungle]

4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

Hell, they could get a solid MLB in the 7th round, or as a UDFA.   They probably won't, but they could. 

 

The more starters they try to draft for next year the more games they're going to lose.  Getting even 2 picks that are ready to start immediately would be a pretty good draft class.   This team has not drafted anything like well enough lately to support this "just get one in round whatever" talk.  Reminds me of the talk when Reader got hurt a couple years ago.  Just get another one, no problem.

 

Not an endorsement of Pratt here so much as persistent doubt at their ability to easily replace him. 

 

 

He's also always one injury away from being replaced. He's not indispensable.

 

With his level of play, an "average" replacement is an upgrade. It's a position we need to get younger and faster at anyway. Pratt has made himself easy to replace. A lot of guys can lead the league in missed tackles.

[T-Dub]

39 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

He's also always one injury away from being replaced. He's not indispensable.

 

With his level of play, an "average" replacement is an upgrade. It's a position we need to get younger and faster at anyway. Pratt has made himself easy to replace. A lot of guys can lead the league in missed tackles.

 

 

We can count the irreplaceable players on one hand.  The team's ability to actually replace the other 50 or so is the question.  How long was Volson the starting LG before a FA backup took over?  Now he's again a FA.  Let's replace him, just to get things rolling.

[-GoBengals-]

4 hours ago, Cricket said:

Didn’t Pratt ask to be traded last year (or was it the year before?)?

 

 

 

i dont recall that happening before, could be forgetting, he was the dude throwing a trantrum yelling at ossai or whoever for the barely late hit on mahomes that helped us lose the AFCC game. 

 

he was a fr agent after that and signe dlong term deal that offseason.. so no real timeframe to request a trade that i recall.

[Cat]

6 hours ago, GoBengals said:

 

i dont recall that happening before, could be forgetting, he was the dude throwing a trantrum yelling at ossai or whoever for the barely late hit on mahomes that helped us lose the AFCC game. 

 

he was a fr agent after that and signe dlong term deal that offseason.. so no real timeframe to request a trade that i recall.

This is how I remember it as well. 

[texbengal]

13 hours ago, GoBengals said:

lol id say the feeling is pretty mutual. letting him save face by asking out? or just a batter look if he asks out?

 

seemed OBVIOUS Golden wasnt interested in pratt anymore during a few interviews, almost going out of his way to ignore pratt being part of the defense. 

Yes, great point. Given Golden had coached both starters and in the DC interviews, he mentioned Wilson prominently and I didn't hear Pratt's name at all... so that was telling.

And when he went off on Ossai in the AFC championship game loss, that left me cold. It's an emotional time - I get it, and the wound was fresh since it was right after the game. But Pratt has made his share of mistakes and clearly, Ossai was distraught and didn't need salt rubbed on the wound. He had played a great game up to that point... IMO, probably the best game he's played since he's been in Cincinnati, and it was a hustle play gone bad. Definitely not good judgment, but Ossai knew that and what Pratt did was shitty (to his credit, he apologized to the team the next day, but it still rubbed me the wrong way). 

[Shebengal]

13 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

We have 6 picks. The good (?) thing is that we can get guys in rounds 5 and 6 who will make the roster and can help with depth. We can also cover several needs at moderate prices in free agency. We have lots of cap space and keeping Burrow's big 4 is very doable. In addition we can add a couple of guard upgrades, some depth for the O-line and several D-linemen before the draft. We don't need to pay up for outside free agents like Josh Sweat or Chase Young or Milton Williams or DJ Reed or Justin Reid. Those guys will get 16 mil per year or more. Use at least 4 of the picks on defense plus an RB and maybe an O-lineman. If Golden is much of a DC, we should see considerable improvement defensively while upgrading the offense to fearsome. 

Is that counting the pick we are getting this year for the Troy Brown signing? IIRC, that's a 3rd round pick we are getting. 

[texbengal]

Charlie Goldsmith’s blog post:

 

On Oct. 3, 2020, Zac Taylor asked veteran linebacker Josh Bynes to speak to the entire team.

 

Saturday nightspeeches were a big deal in the first few years of Taylor’s head coaching career. Morale was very low as Bynes stepped up to the mic. Then, he delivered what Jessie Bates later described as “a hell of a speech” about work ethic and perseverance.

The next day, the Bengals beat the Jaguars. The speech from the veteran with the nickname of “Coach Bynes” was one of the feel good stories of a forgettable season.

 

Even though Bynes was a team captain in 2020, he was never a household name during his single season with the Bengals. He had a fine season on the field and made a few million dollars.

Two years later, Logan Wilson was playing the best football of his career to-date. In October of 2022, Wilson was well on his way to earning the contract extension that he later received from the Bengals.

 

I interviewed Wilson for a story about his development. And he couldn’t stop talking about the impact that Bynes had on him.

“Bynes was huge because there was nothing he hadn't seen in this game,” Wilson said during a minutes-long answer about Bynes. “I couldn’t have asked for a better guy.”

 

Now, the Bengals’ defense is in the middle of a similar transition to the one that the group went through in 2020.

Thanks for reading Charlie's Chalkboard! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.

Subscribed

 

Five years ago, the Bengals were in the process of replacing aging veterans like Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins, Shawn Williams with fresh faces like Sam Hubbard, DJ Reader, Wilson, Vonn Bell and Jessie Bates.

 

Now, the Bengals are resetting again on defense. The latest development took place on Wednesday when Germaine Pratt (an expected cap casualty) requested a trade.

 

Hubbard (a cap casualty candidate), Trey Hendrickson (who has implied that he wants an extension or a trade) and Wilson are the only Bengals left from the AFC Champion roster of the 2021 season.

 

The Bengals’ captains on defense last season were Bell, Pratt and Hubbard. They might need three completely new captains in 2025 (for the record, I’m in favor of bringing back Hubbard on a new contract, having him play Cam Sample’s old role as an impact run stopper and keeping him as a captain and locker room leader). Mike Hilton, who was a captain in 2023, will be a free agent. The Bengals also never replaced the leadership that Reader and Bates provided.

 

The Bengals’ defense is pretty close to a blank slate. There are a lot of young players who have talent that haven’t looked the part so far.

To get the unit back on track, the Bengals have to go back to their roots and remember how they built their Super Bowl roster in the first place.

Call in the Josh Bynesification of the Bengals’ defense.

 

Bynes walked in the door and was immediately a culture setter. He was a winner who had played in a lot of big games, and he showed the young players the ropes. On the field, he was a great communicator and a solid tackler despite some issues as a coverage defender. He wasn’t a playmaker, but Bynes was consistent. 

Bynes was never going to be the Bengals’ long-term answer at linebacker. But he helped give the Bengals’ defense the identity that carried the team to big wins later on.

With Pratt now unofficially gone, the Bengals should replace him with this year’s version of Bynes.

 

That could be 25-year-old free agent linebacker Ernest Jones, who won a Super Bowl with the Rams and was later a team captain. He’s known for his ability as a communicator, and his versatile skill set at the line of scrimmage literally changed the 2021 Super Bowl against the Bengals.

Bobby Wagner would plug-and-play into the role that Bynes filled in 2020. Wagner, 35 years old, received a lot of credit for the impact he made on the Commanders’ young defense last season.

 

Robert Spillane was a captain with the Raiders, is a hard hitter and is experienced in the AFC North.

The next Josh Bynes could even be a defensive tackle or a safety. But the Bengals need more guys on defense who know how to win. The defense needs more mentors who can be Logan Wilson’s “Josh Bynes” for Myles Murphy, Kris Jenkins Jr., McKinnley Jackson, Cam Taylor-Britt, DJ Turner, Dax Hill, Jordan Battle and a theoretical linebacker that they draft.

 

The Bengals’ 2024 season shows how much the intangibles can matter. The Bynesification of the defense is the quickest way to get this defense back to average as quickly as possible.

Get winners who know what to do when the season is on the line, and have them set the example for the young core of defensive playmakers.

 

The Bengals should fill up every level of the defense with this type of player and this type of person like they did in 2020. Reader and Bell became long-term captains and were great players on contending teams. They’re the ones who ended up getting a lot of the credit for setting the culture, and deservedly so.

 

But for a Bengals team that should be throwing money at Ja’Marr Chase, Tee Higgins and the pass rush, an under-the-radar player who’d be the next Josh Bynes can also significantly raise the floor of the young defense by helping steer the group in the right direction. This type of player can make a more significant impact than Pratt’s impact in 2024.

 

The goal for the Bengals’ defense should be building up and developing a young core that can grow together over the next few seasons. As the 2020 Bengals showed, that process starts with roster turnover. It starts with new leadership paving the way for the next young wave to take over.

 

Pratt made some franchise-changing plays with the Bengals, including the walk-off pick against the Raiders. His pick against the 49ers in 2023 was one of the best plays that I’ve seen by a linebacker, and his game against the Stealers in November of 2022 was the best game that I’ve seen by a linebacker. He’s the one who stood up Tyler Huntley to set up the Fumble in the Jungle.

 

But the Bengals’ defense had clear intangible issues last season. There was bad body language, a lot of negative reactions on the sideline and concerning comments from key defenders to the media. Pratt was tabbed as the heart and soul of the defense, and the defense didn’t have enough of either last season. Notably, during Al Golden’s media blitz as the new DC, he didn’t mention Pratt and constantly talked up Logan Wilson.

If the Bengals lose Pratt as is expected, the Bengals could end with as many as three new captains on the defense in 2025.

 

The defense needs a new voice, and that goes beyond bringing in a new defensive coordinator.

 

The Bengals were likely going to move on from Pratt anyway before he made the trade request. The defense has to reset, and the formula that the Bengals used in 2020 is a good place to start.

[Cricket]

7 hours ago, GoBengals said:

 

i dont recall that happening before, could be forgetting, he was the dude throwing a trantrum yelling at ossai or whoever for the barely late hit on mahomes that helped us lose the AFCC game. 

 

he was a fr agent after that and signe dlong term deal that offseason.. so no real timeframe to request a trade that i recall.

 

I just did a little research looking for info on my thought that Pratt had asked to be traded last year, or the year before.  I have come to the following conclusions:

 

1) The media world today is such that if you search for any one text string, you will get hundreds, if not thousands, of hits.  
 

2) I appear to be wrong that he had earlier requested a trade, but he was certainly not happy with the Bengals: Dehner, 3/13/23: “[Pratt] had been vocal about his disenchantment with the franchise entering free agency.”  If I recall correctly [acknowledging that my “recollections” don’t have a good track record], after the 2023 season, and his blowup on Ossai, he basically said his goodbyes…”flavored” as if he knew it was the end of the line in Cincinnati.  But Loudini wanted him back.  

Dehner’s article in the Athletic, 3/13/23:

The Cincinnati Bengals are re-signing linebacker Germaine Pratt, a team source confirmed to The Athletic on Monday. NFL Network first reported the news. Here’s what you need to know:

Pratt is returning on a three-year, $21 million deal, according to the source.

The 26-year-old ranks No. 39 on The Athletic’s list of top free agents this offseason.

Pratt has started 54 games during his four-year career with Cincinnati.

Backstory

Pratt’s return comes as somewhat of a surprise after the linebacker had been vocal about his disenchantment with the franchise entering free agency.

After the AFC Championship Game he was heard yelling, “this is my last f—–g year,” and when asked if he wanted to be back, he replied: “Absolutely I want to be back, but if they don’t want me back, then … ” He also has expressed his frustrations about not getting to play on third down during the season on social media.

Pratt enjoyed his best season in 2022 and grew into a foundational piece, grading out 11th of 90 linebackers, according to PFF.

[HavePityPlease]

It was a fair bet all along that he would be cut, but as others pointed out Golden's interviews seemed like an obvious signal that he wasn't favoured by the new coaching crew.

 

I pay a lot of attention to the LB's, mostly because it was my favourite position to play and the one I get the most animated about during a game.  Pratt had kind of a strange journey here but ultimately a successful one on the field - until this past season.  As others noted, he was pretty poor and outright stopped trying in some games.

 

Some observations of his time here:

 

- As a drafted rookie he seemed willing, high energy, but he had some serious fundamental bad habits and flaws that lasted for quite a while.  The most obvious to me was he had this weird tendency to wrap, pick up, and back-slam every ball carrier he tackled.  This is both a strange tendency for a player that reached this level, but just plain "not smart", because he's expending massive amounts of wasted energy every time he does it.  Anyway, he eventually stopped doing it either late in his second season or into his third.

- Once he stopped the energy wasting habits it seemed to (unsurprisingly) improve his overall energy level and made him more effective.  Whenever the "go for the strip" policy was heavily bought into by the defense he was probably its most eager advocate.  Sometimes this didn't help end a play (the opposite), but as we all know it worked enough times to probably be "worth it" in his case.  So, he became the chase-and-strip stereotype guy.  

- His tantrum at Ossai in the lost AFCC game was a really bad look and it soured me on him quite a bit.  After the dust settled and he said his piece about it, it felt more like he was worried about how it all would affect his contract more than the way the game was lost or that it was lost at all.  If you are going to point at your teammates for "blame" in your contract situation, you're a pussy, sorry.  Earn your own damn contract.

- It seemed clear both implicitly and by some public statements by the coaches that he was to be relied on this past season as a leader and example-setter for the D.  Yeah that didn't go so well, eh?

 

So, obviously, I'm not sad at all to see him go, quite the opposite.  Now we have a chance to upgrade which should be a much more consequential position in any defense.  Just watching LBs on other teams, it feels like we've been short-changing what's possible.

 

With that said, I'm sure others here have pointed to the hey-maybe-why-not-is-it-a-pipe-dream-one-can-hope-maybe possibilty that Zack Baun might want to reunite with his old LB coach here?  He played MLB with the Eagles but a playmaker's a playmaker, it'd be fun if it happened.

 

I tried googling Baun and of course most of the results are now the AI-generated type with the standard headline "Zack Baun Projected To Sign With <insert every fuggin team in the league>", so no interesting news to be found there yet, as expected.

 

Others have mentioned the draft, I think they'll obviously need something from the draft, but I wouldn't sneeze at a high pick there.  I feel like playmaking LBs have a better chance to make an impact as a rookie than a lot of other positions.

 

Exciting times ahead!

[sparky151]

18 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

They need to pay up for some kind of free agents, whether it's this "Big 4" or from outside the organization.  There's a 3rd option where they do neither of those things, and I'm less than certain that's not their favored option when they seem to be polishing up the excuses for it already.

 

 

 

I'm saying 3 solid NFL starters is a pretty good draft class, that's A grade if we're being realistic. I don't know how we expect anything better than that given their recent track record.  Hopefully Golden can help but if the goal is replacing that many starters?  If they pull that off I will leave Tobin alone and resist comparing Troy Blackburn to this guy rollerblading around the stadium and calling Mike "Daddy"

 

 

We won't know which draft picks become solid NFL starters until a few years from now. But a DE, DT, or CB picked at 17 by the Bengals should have a good chance of starting from game one, given the current roster. Maybe that changes after free agency. My preferred plan would be to cut the deadwood ruthlessly, sign vets to start at both OG spots and NT, extend the big 4 of Chase, Hendrickson, Higgins, and Gesicki plus a few more guys like Ford, Williams, and Bachie, then draft BPA. This year that would incline me toward a DE or CB but it could be Jeanty or Warren or Starks if they are still available. 

 

[sparky151]

5 hours ago, Shebengal said:

Is that counting the pick we are getting this year for the Troy Brown signing? IIRC, that's a 3rd round pick we are getting. 

 

Did Trey Brown get hired in Jacksonville? I thought they were still interviewing? If we did get the 3rds for a GM hiring, that would be very helpful.

 

Regarding Pratt's replacement, we need to draft a LB or two. We last drafted a LB in 2020 with Wilson, ADG, and Bailey. Since then we've added undrafted street free agents like Bachie, Clay Johnston, and Njongmeta. Time to put some talent back in the group. I'd re-sign Bachie, ADG if he's cheap or Isiah Simmons if ADG wants more than 2 mil, and a guy like Dre Greenlaw who is returning from injury and looking for a 1 year deal. And then still use a pick at LB. 

[T-Dub]

9 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

We won't know which draft picks become solid NFL starters until a few years from now. But a DE, DT, or CB picked at 17 by the Bengals should have a good chance of starting from game one, given the current roster.

 

 

Sure they have a chance, but do you want to bet another season on that?

[sparky151]

6 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Sure they have a chance, but do you want to bet another season on that?

 

I want to prune the deadwood and add more talent to the defense. My view is that a good offseason and rebuild by Golden can get the Bengals defense to middle of the pack. It will still need additions in 2026. To Goldsmith's point, sign a Calais Campbell or Bobby Wagner for leadership as well as performance. But I'd rather draft Walter Nolen at 17 than pay Milton Williams 4/80. Or Mike Green over Josh Sweat at 4/90 or Ben Morrison over DJ Reed at 4/64. If the Bengals improve their drafting, they can build a top defense. But it will take a year or two and we still don't know what the ceiling is for Murphy, Jenkins, Turner, etc. 

[T-Dub]

13 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

I want to prune the deadwood and add more talent to the defense. My view is that a good offseason and rebuild by Golden can get the Bengals defense to middle of the pack. It will still need additions in 2026. To Goldsmith's point, sign a Calais Campbell or Bobby Wagner for leadership as well as performance. But I'd rather draft Walter Nolen at 17 than pay Milton Williams 4/80. Or Mike Green over Josh Sweat at 4/90 or Ben Morrison over DJ Reed at 4/64. If the Bengals improve their drafting, they can build a top defense. But it will take a year or two and we still don't know what the ceiling is for Murphy, Jenkins, Turner, etc. 

 

 

That all sounds great but "in a year or two" Burrow will be 30.  We don't have time for this defensive draft rebuild stuff.   Yeah it sucks to overpay for second rate free agents but that's what happens when they don't draft well.  Maybe they should look at who is doing that drafting and how they go about it, but in the meantime there's a HoF talent going to waste at QB.  They're probably not drafting another of those any time soon, nor are they likely to draft 4-5 defensive starters.  One would be a good start.

 

They need to get smart about gaming the salary cap and start cutting some checks or we're going nowhere.  If that means a couple of lean rebuild seasons 5 years down the road, so be it. 

 

Frankly I'm not convinced ownership wants anything more than generational leisure-class income & have grown comfortable with a formula for "competitive" almost-champions that ensures they get to keep it.

 

[sparky151]

Er, my view is that the 2025 Bengals should be the AFCN champion and serious Super Bowl contender. That's assuming Burrow stays healthy and the defense gets back to mid. It will take a couple of years to build a top 10 defense but Golden should be able to get them playing together and tackling better just by replacing some stiffs with average players. If some of the loads of draft picks we've thrown at the defense pay off, even better.

 

[T-Dub]

45 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

Er, my view is that the 2025 Bengals should be the AFCN champion and serious Super Bowl contender. That's assuming Burrow stays healthy and the defense gets back to mid. It will take a couple of years to build a top 10 defense but Golden should be able to get them playing together and tackling better just by replacing some stiffs with average players. If some of the loads of draft picks we've thrown at the defense pay off, even better.

 

 

I'm looking for a quicker turn-around but you're probably right.   Taking Dax Hill & Murpy back to back was not great.  I like Jenkins & Jackson in rotation with a couple others, at least one of them a vet. Wouldn't waste any more time on Rankins, give that contract to a DE, they can get another 2-down DT for less.  At least one LB that's more of a thumper  than a cover guy, someone to make plays at the LoS & between the hashes that will take on blockers inside.  A physical DB with center-fielder range, like what Stone was advertised as somehow but for real.

 

That's.. 5? On defense. Are we really bringing back Joe Bachie? Volson too?

[alleycat]

It's so hard to build a team based on projections of guys who haven't really demonstrated the "it" factor they were drafted for suddenly growing into it.

 

Our LBs had massive tackle numbers because literally no one was home to stop the run on the D-Line. Can we depend on the two rookies making a remarkable leap forward this year from last? How did that leap work out with Murphy or Ossai or...pretty much go down the list of the entire team...with the exception of Chase Brown I can't think of a recent player whose performance truly broke out from one season to the next. So yeah, we're going to need two more interior DL in my opinion, and that should probably be a draft pick and a vet. Of course, we need another difference maker at DE opposite Trey, and I would NORMALLY say that I'd take one elite guy either there or at 3Tech and be happy with a serviceable smaller contract vet at the other, but that's already a whole lot of need, a whole lot of holes to fill, and not a hole lot of resources to do it with - if we get the kinds of moves we want on the other side of the ball. 

 

That said, if we had serviceable influx of talent at DE and DT, I'd argue that the single biggest difference making move on this defense would be to add a true dominator at LB. Not a little too slow run-and-chase type that let's runners come to them or drags down crossers AFTER they make the catch and run (I'm looking at you Logan Wilson and Pratt), but a dominant, smart, tone-setting knock the snot out of you linebacker. Nothing would elevate this team further/faster. 

 

Except maybe a real Safety. 

 

Did I mention we have a lot of holes?