If you HAD to choose just ONE issue that would completely go away next year, the others may get better but are still an issue. Which of the four do you think would benefit the team and put us in position to get to where we want to go?

These are the 4 I think the defense is pretty bad to historically bad at.

I ask because in his press conference Duke said we had to get better at pass rush.

I don't disagree, but for me missed tackles is THE biggest issue.

If you have others name them in your comments.

I was torn between missed tackles and pass rush based on the selections available. I voted missed tackles because statistically and painfully watching games that sticks out to me. However, if worded a different way, I would say that the DLine is the one position group that needs fixing more than others, not just pass rush, but also run stoppage, and general line of scrimmage battles.

I voted tackling. We had the highest missed tackle rate in the league by a wide margin. We were tied with 4 other teams for 22nd in sacks last year.

Here is how I break this down.

Missed Tackles - We were historically bad in this area, yes it got better after they bye so there is some hope this isnt this bad next year, that said the question is if we fix the issue. I think if we fix this and just play sound defense it will make this team a championship level team with as good as our O is.

Pass rush - Even if you are #1 in the league at pass rush most QBs are still going to get the ball out quick enough to move the ball some, and if they have a RB that can run the ball that helps to negate the pass rush some, also we were not historically bad, just bad, in this area.

Stop the run - This might be my #2, I think it goes a bit hand in hand with Missed tackles. If you can take away one thing from an Offense, either the passing game or running game, and make them one dimensional you increase your chances of winning.

TE Coverage - Another area where we were historically bad. That said the TEs in this divison consist of a washed Mark Andrews, a mid Pat Friermuth, and I think David Njoku is a free agent. Ravens do have Isaiah Likely but I kind of think he is about as mid as Friermuth. ... I'd love to fix this because it seems as if we are always bad at TE coverage, but it's the least on my list of 4.

25 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

I voted tackling. We had the highest missed tackle rate in the league by a wide margin. We were tied with 4 other teams for 22nd in sacks last year.

Same. That's fundamental football player stuff we now know they've been overlooking in favor of 40 times and broad jump scores. They're out here drafting show ponies.

That aside, it solves 1/2 of the other issues. Run defense primarily, since they surrendered more rushing yards on average than anyone in the NFL.. (Gets old doesn't it? Learning about all the many ways this defense was the worst at something...) That's also a weak IDL, lost in space LB's, being mentally and physically babyshit soft in general.. But it starts with tackling.

Maybe not a big improvement to the pass rush but there were plenty of missed sacks because of poor tackling.

TE's.. again, more to blame on slow DB's getting bodied & not attacking the ball, but being scared to tackle the TE turns dump passes into big plays.

Basically if they can't even tackle the other stuff doesn't matter.

1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

TE Coverage - Another area where we were historically bad. That said the TEs in this divison consist of a washed Mark Andrews, a mid Pat Friermuth, and I think David Njoku is a free agent. Ravens do have Isaiah Likely but I kind of think he is about as mid as Friermuth. ... I'd love to fix this because it seems as if we are always bad at TE coverage, but it's the least on my list of 4.

I picked missed tackles because if you fix that will help with stopping the run and maybe reduce the carnage that TEs wreak upon us.

Pisspuke also has Isaiah Washington at TE, and he's the size of a semi and tough to bring down. Cleveland has Harold Fannin, Jr., who was their leading receiver until he got hurt. He's pretty good.

Missed tackles; that's why I want either Downs or Styles in the draft. IIRC both are good in coverage so 2 birds one stone.

1 minute ago, gupps said:

Missed tackles; that's why I want either Downs or Styles in the draft. IIRC both are good in coverage so 2 birds with one stone.

Dude.. You ever like... Get too stoned with one bird?

I picked stop the run. They were last in the league against the run last year and it’s been a major problem for the last three seasons. The last two years we made the playoffs and won the division they were in the top 5-10 against the run. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

lots of things changed last season and lots of things... "grew" for lack of a better term.

like some guys had to go, guys who were there and were fucking terrible in the first hald, CTB and Wilson both gone, so i have a hard time claiming who the defense was during their reign is who they were in week 18, thus not who they are "improving from"

if we are going to ask this question, a realistic point of WHERE we are today and upgrading from that point may sway some of those answers.

like Geno stone isnt on the roster next year, he led the team with the most, 26 missed tackle. both rookie LB were in the top 10 in the league also. i felt like they improved in the last half or third of the season as they settled in as well.

lemme look at knight, he had 16 missed tackle. and only 5 in the last 9 games of the season, so 11 of his 16 missed tackles happened early and happened in less than half the season.. and i feel that a good enough sample size to extrapoalte as who he is now as a player.. from today, we arent impriving on a 16 missed tackled player in knight..

Carter came along a little slower, Carter has 18 missed tackles, he got HIS shit goether after game 10, which is roughly when he took over for logan or a game or two into it, carter has 4 missed tackles in the last 7 games, 14 in the first 10 games. so from 1.4 per game, down to .57 per game.. 66% less..

Jordan battle: 17 missed tackles.. earlier transition, 6 missed tackles in the last 11 games... just over .5 per game like Carter... 11 in the first 6 games.. nearly 2 per game... a giant growth..

Geno Stone is the outlier in this rule, even more reason to be glad he is gon.e. he got WORSE as the season went on.. geno stone i think single handidly gave the team the "feel" of being dogshit tacklers all season... im going to break down all 11 guys since im bored here.. Stone missed only 5 tackles in the first 7 games..... he then proceeded to miss 18 tackles in the last 10 games.. nearly 2 per game... battle improved and stone took over the suck train.

FULL LIST of others:

BJ HILL: missed 2 tackles in the first 4 games, .5 per game... then missed 1 tackle in the last 13 games.... phenominal down th stretch

TJ Slayton: 3 in the first 9, 1 in the last 8 games.. so wasnt bad either way, but last 8 games was not a problem.

Trey missed 1 tackle in basically 5 games.. no issue there

Shemar Stewrt mised 2 in his 5 games before injury and missed 1 in his final 3-4 games after injury so not an issue there either

Myles murphy missed 4 in his first 8 games, and 2 in his last 9 games.. so cut the problem more than in half.. and was a non issue down the stretch

DJ Tunerr 3 in his first 7, 2 in his last 10.. improved as well and wasnt a problem

Dax Hill: missed 9 in his first 10 games, then only 1 in his last 7 games.. 90% improvement... a non issue down th stretch

so just the addition by subtraction of losing geno stone, everyone elses data has us middle of the pack in missed tackles in the last 8 games of the season..

so im not sure id be sweating the missed tackle situation what so ever... we arent solving a 171 missed tackles problem. the stats are real, but the realistic version of who the players are going forward doesnt lend to assuming that happens again for any reason.

thoguhts?

4 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

lots of things changed last season and lots of things... "grew" for lack of a better term.

like some guys had to go, guys who were there and were fucking terrible in the first hald, CTB and Wilson both gone, so i have a hard time claiming who the defense was during their reign is who they were in week 18, thus not who they are "improving from"

if we are going to ask this question, a realistic point of WHERE we are today and upgrading from that point may sway some of those answers.

like Geno stone isnt on the roster next year, he led the team with the most, 26 missed tackle. both rookie LB were in the top 10 in the league also. i felt like they improved in the last half or third of the season as they settled in as well.

lemme look at knight, he had 16 missed tackle. and only 5 in the last 9 games of the season, so 11 of his 16 missed tackles happened early and happened in less than half the season.. and i feel that a good enough sample size to extrapoalte as who he is now as a player.. from today, we arent impriving on a 16 missed tackled player in knight..

Carter came along a little slower, Carter has 18 missed tackles, he got HIS shit goether after game 10, which is roughly when he took over for logan or a game or two into it, carter has 4 missed tackles in the last 7 games, 14 in the first 10 games. so from 1.4 per game, down to .57 per game.. 66% less..

Jordan battle: 17 missed tackles.. earlier transition, 6 missed tackles in the last 11 games... just over .5 per game like Carter... 11 in the first 6 games.. nearly 2 per game... a giant growth..

Geno Stone is the outlier in this rule, even more reason to be glad he is gon.e. he got WORSE as the season went on.. geno stone i think single handidly gave the team the "feel" of being dogshit tacklers all season... im going to break down all 11 guys since im bored here.. Stone missed only 5 tackles in the first 7 games..... he then proceeded to miss 18 tackles in the last 10 games.. nearly 2 per game... battle improved and stone took over the suck train.

FULL LIST of others:

BJ HILL: missed 2 tackles in the first 4 games, .5 per game... then missed 1 tackle in the last 13 games.... phenominal down th stretch

TJ Slayton: 3 in the first 9, 1 in the last 8 games.. so wasnt bad either way, but last 8 games was not a problem.

Trey missed 1 tackle in basically 5 games.. no issue there

Shemar Stewrt mised 2 in his 5 games before injury and missed 1 in his final 3-4 games after injury so not an issue there either

Myles murphy missed 4 in his first 8 games, and 2 in his last 9 games.. so cut the problem more than in half.. and was a non issue down the stretch

DJ Tunerr 3 in his first 7, 2 in his last 10.. improved as well and wasnt a problem

Dax Hill: missed 9 in his first 10 games, then only 1 in his last 7 games.. 90% improvement... a non issue down th stretch

so just the addition by subtraction of losing geno stone, everyone elses data has us middle of the pack in missed tackles in the last 8 games of the season..

so im not sure id be sweating the missed tackle situation what so ever... we arent solving a 171 missed tackles problem. the stats are real, but the realistic version of who the players are going forward doesnt lend to assuming that happens again for any reason.

thoguhts?

Thoughts? Basically this "last x games" stuff is cherry-picking & they still lost most of those games, anyway. For the record. Baltimore was a very average team but good win I guess. Miami and Arizona were terrible. I don't think anyone is disputing that the defense got better. That doesn't mean they're anywhere near good.

On the same note.. going through every individual starter noting they only had a few missed tackles.. each.. across the entire defense? Also not an endorsement.

Individuals.. I see it with Knight, should take a big jump next year if everything goes well. In other words healthy all year & good coaching. Both of those are very much in question right now.

Carter looked like a back-up/ST player to me.

i think Tight end is improved by both the tackling (less yards after catch) and the pass rush (less time to scramble and find the tight end if the two good corners are on receivers the TE is the best candidate to get open regardless.

1 minute ago, T-Dub said:

Thoughts? Basically this "last x games" stuff is cherry-picking & they still lost most of those games, anyway. For the record. Baltimore was a very average team but good win I guess. Miami and Arizona were terrible. I don't think anyone is disputing that the defense got better. That doesn't mean they're anywhere near good.

Individuals.. I see it with Knight, should take a big jump next year if everything goes well. In other words healthy all year & good coaching. Both of those are very much in question right now.

Carter looked like a back-up/ST player to me.

last x games is only cherry picking if:

the data isnt HALF THE DAMN SEASON

and

guys werent removed from the lineup.

and

key guys were rookies who clearly were learning on the job.... none of these things are cherry picked points in the real world.

cherry picking is like "we we tackled really well against the nfc north so it should be fine" thats cherry picking..

is it cherry picking because you want to bitch about it for the next 6 months instead of seeing realistic data points that show it shouldnt really be a problem going forward..

Answer me this:

1. how is showing growth, improvement and clear cut specific data, cherry picking?

2. what data was left out that makes who the team is today, accurate and this data isnt?

3. 3. do you not know what cherry picking means?

does anyone have rushing yard data by game? was the stopping the run problem synonymous with the tackling problem?

Just now, GoBengals said:

1. how is showing growth, improvement and clear cut specific data, cherry picking?

They didn't beat a winning team in that span. Big picture here. Tackling better against teams that suck isn't necessarily an improvement in their tackling.

what data was left out that makes who the team is today, accurate and this data isnt?

Besides the first 10 games of the season you mean?

3. do you not know what cherry picking means?

Do you get a discount on your season tickets for this BS?

found it, wasnt solely missed tackled leading to many more yards.. but it was a factor

here is the average rushing yards per game for each team as well.

this is DVOA stats at work here....

week 1: Browns averaged 97, we gave up 49

week 2: jacksonville averaged 117 we gave up 139, worse than the average by 22

week 3: vikings averaged 108, we gave up 169, worse than average by 61 yards

week 4: denver averaged 118, we gave up 186, worse by 68 yards

week 5: detroit averaged 120, we gave up118, better than average

week 6: green bay averaged 118, we gave up 153, worse by 55 yards

week 7: pitt averaged 101, we gave up 147, worse by 46 yards

Game 8: Jets averaged 123, we gave up 254, worse by 131 yards, jesus christ

Game 9: Bears averaged 141, we gave up 283, worse by 142, god damn

Game 10: Pitt averaged 101, we gave up 111, worse by 10 yards.. a reasonable outing

Game 11: Pats averaged 129, we gave up 102, better than averaged by 27 yards, a GOOD outing..

Game 12: Ravens averaged 156, we gave up 123, better by 33 yards, a good outing

Game 13: Bills averaged 155, we gave up 183, worse by 28 yards

Game 14: Ravens averaged 156, we gave up 189, worse by 33 yards

Game 15: Miami averaged 120, we gave up 129, worse by 9 yards.

Game 16: Cards averaged 93, we gave up 42, better by 51 yards

Game 17: Browns averaged 97, we gave up 118, worse by 21 yards.

So we did NOT become a good run defense by ant stretch,. we did stop being a fucking pathetic embarassing one... so thats something.. but lots of room for improvement there.

First 9 games we gave up "over the average": 472 yards over average

Last 8 games, we gave up over the average: -10 yards over average . so 10 yards UNDER the average, so an improvement of "rushing yards over average" from 472 yards over average to 10 yards under the average...

---

Cherry picking would be to pluck the t2 worse games in the last 8 to make the stats more lopsided... the other post is not cherry picking.

so based on my boredome and data i yanked about last season progression, pass rush is my vote.

21 minutes ago, GoBengals said:

does anyone have rushing yard data by game? was the stopping the run problem synonymous with the tackling problem?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2025.htm

254 yards to the Jets.. oof.

Otherwise consistently over 100+ allowed, aside from AZ and the opener.

If you're looking for an indicator I'd point to less scoring, aside from Buffalo. Dudes weren't running through the whole defense so often.

missed tackles per team:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2025/opp.htm#all_advanced_defense

haven't found per-game stats but that's 50 (fifty) more than the 2nd worst team. To put the problem in perspective, I mean. If they didn't miss a single one after the bye, still probably worst? (but they did, in bunches). Without Stone.. yeah, maybe 31st.

IKR? Fucked up. I guess that's what "historically bad" means, but that's quite a difference.

So I guess we can write "Caleb Downs" at FS1 on the ol' depth chart and we're all good!

Lots of issues on D, of course, but I chose missed tackles. There were numerous times when there was a guy in a gap to make the play and he either whiffed, did the shoulder bump, or made some other lame attempt.

So I don’t think it was getting out-schemed so much (well, not true, LBs were exposed frequently) as they just didn’t execute. When you see a good tackling team like Houston, it really emphasizes how bad the Bengals are in comparison.

That said, they also need to get more hats to the ball… that helps and this D didn’t do that consistently enough. Having one guy available to make a stop gives you little margin for error and worse, when that guy is Geno Stone or a rookie like Knight or Carter, you get what we all saw.

15 hours ago, GoBengals said:

lots of things changed last season and lots of things... "grew" for lack of a better term.

like some guys had to go, guys who were there and were fucking terrible in the first hald, CTB and Wilson both gone, so i have a hard time claiming who the defense was during their reign is who they were in week 18, thus not who they are "improving from"

if we are going to ask this question, a realistic point of WHERE we are today and upgrading from that point may sway some of those answers.

like Geno stone isnt on the roster next year, he led the team with the most, 26 missed tackle. both rookie LB were in the top 10 in the league also. i felt like they improved in the last half or third of the season as they settled in as well.

lemme look at knight, he had 16 missed tackle. and only 5 in the last 9 games of the season, so 11 of his 16 missed tackles happened early and happened in less than half the season.. and i feel that a good enough sample size to extrapoalte as who he is now as a player.. from today, we arent impriving on a 16 missed tackled player in knight..

Carter came along a little slower, Carter has 18 missed tackles, he got HIS shit goether after game 10, which is roughly when he took over for logan or a game or two into it, carter has 4 missed tackles in the last 7 games, 14 in the first 10 games. so from 1.4 per game, down to .57 per game.. 66% less..

Jordan battle: 17 missed tackles.. earlier transition, 6 missed tackles in the last 11 games... just over .5 per game like Carter... 11 in the first 6 games.. nearly 2 per game... a giant growth..

Geno Stone is the outlier in this rule, even more reason to be glad he is gon.e. he got WORSE as the season went on.. geno stone i think single handidly gave the team the "feel" of being dogshit tacklers all season... im going to break down all 11 guys since im bored here.. Stone missed only 5 tackles in the first 7 games..... he then proceeded to miss 18 tackles in the last 10 games.. nearly 2 per game... battle improved and stone took over the suck train.

FULL LIST of others:

BJ HILL: missed 2 tackles in the first 4 games, .5 per game... then missed 1 tackle in the last 13 games.... phenominal down th stretch

TJ Slayton: 3 in the first 9, 1 in the last 8 games.. so wasnt bad either way, but last 8 games was not a problem.

Trey missed 1 tackle in basically 5 games.. no issue there

Shemar Stewrt mised 2 in his 5 games before injury and missed 1 in his final 3-4 games after injury so not an issue there either

Myles murphy missed 4 in his first 8 games, and 2 in his last 9 games.. so cut the problem more than in half.. and was a non issue down the stretch

DJ Tunerr 3 in his first 7, 2 in his last 10.. improved as well and wasnt a problem

Dax Hill: missed 9 in his first 10 games, then only 1 in his last 7 games.. 90% improvement... a non issue down th stretch

so just the addition by subtraction of losing geno stone, everyone elses data has us middle of the pack in missed tackles in the last 8 games of the season..

so im not sure id be sweating the missed tackle situation what so ever... we arent solving a 171 missed tackles problem. the stats are real, but the realistic version of who the players are going forward doesnt lend to assuming that happens again for any reason.

thoguhts?

Yeah I suspect the missed tackles are going to go down next year with Stone gone and the growth of our young linebackers. However who we replace Stone with is a big question.

This is a bit of a leading question. It tells us who as a board the general consensus is about who we want in FA and the draft.

I like Downs, he seems to know where guys are supposed to be and doenst miss tackles. I also like Styles, hes good in coverage and against the run. But I also like Woods to help open up things for the linebackers as well as stopping the run. The DEs im not going to be mad at because you can always use more pass rush, but for me thats not where the bleeding is and I think you can also free up the DEs with a good DT that is commanding double, sometimes triple teams.

Alot of this is spitballing becuse if all the defensive guys we like are gone and there is the top OT sitting there with OBJ in the final year of his contract, I wont be mad about that either.

14 hours ago, GoBengals said:

so based on my boredome and data i yanked about last season progression, pass rush is my vote.

I'm slowly talking myself into Woods, and trying to get Haulcy in the 2nd.

I think getting a DT that can free up the young LBs and DEs would solve pass rush and stopping the run. I think missed tackles is the most glaring stat but I think it gets better with a year. That said Downs is really good at not missing tackles and if he can replace Stone and shore up that problem it would be huge. But I also like Styles to not miss tackles and cover TEs.

A few ways would could go that would make things alot better. We're not pigeonholed into one player here.

16 hours ago, GoBengals said:

lots of things changed last season and lots of things... "grew" for lack of a better term.

like some guys had to go, guys who were there and were fucking terrible in the first hald, CTB and Wilson both gone, so i have a hard time claiming who the defense was during their reign is who they were in week 18, thus not who they are "improving from"

if we are going to ask this question, a realistic point of WHERE we are today and upgrading from that point may sway some of those answers.

like Geno stone isnt on the roster next year, he led the team with the most, 26 missed tackle. both rookie LB were in the top 10 in the league also. i felt like they improved in the last half or third of the season as they settled in as well.

lemme look at knight, he had 16 missed tackle. and only 5 in the last 9 games of the season, so 11 of his 16 missed tackles happened early and happened in less than half the season.. and i feel that a good enough sample size to extrapoalte as who he is now as a player.. from today, we arent impriving on a 16 missed tackled player in knight..

Carter came along a little slower, Carter has 18 missed tackles, he got HIS shit goether after game 10, which is roughly when he took over for logan or a game or two into it, carter has 4 missed tackles in the last 7 games, 14 in the first 10 games. so from 1.4 per game, down to .57 per game.. 66% less..

Jordan battle: 17 missed tackles.. earlier transition, 6 missed tackles in the last 11 games... just over .5 per game like Carter... 11 in the first 6 games.. nearly 2 per game... a giant growth..

Geno Stone is the outlier in this rule, even more reason to be glad he is gon.e. he got WORSE as the season went on.. geno stone i think single handidly gave the team the "feel" of being dogshit tacklers all season... im going to break down all 11 guys since im bored here.. Stone missed only 5 tackles in the first 7 games..... he then proceeded to miss 18 tackles in the last 10 games.. nearly 2 per game... battle improved and stone took over the suck train.

FULL LIST of others:

BJ HILL: missed 2 tackles in the first 4 games, .5 per game... then missed 1 tackle in the last 13 games.... phenominal down th stretch

TJ Slayton: 3 in the first 9, 1 in the last 8 games.. so wasnt bad either way, but last 8 games was not a problem.

Trey missed 1 tackle in basically 5 games.. no issue there

Shemar Stewrt mised 2 in his 5 games before injury and missed 1 in his final 3-4 games after injury so not an issue there either

Myles murphy missed 4 in his first 8 games, and 2 in his last 9 games.. so cut the problem more than in half.. and was a non issue down the stretch

DJ Tunerr 3 in his first 7, 2 in his last 10.. improved as well and wasnt a problem

Dax Hill: missed 9 in his first 10 games, then only 1 in his last 7 games.. 90% improvement... a non issue down th stretch

so just the addition by subtraction of losing geno stone, everyone elses data has us middle of the pack in missed tackles in the last 8 games of the season..

so im not sure id be sweating the missed tackle situation what so ever... we arent solving a 171 missed tackles problem. the stats are real, but the realistic version of who the players are going forward doesnt lend to assuming that happens again for any reason.

thoguhts?

You broke it down exceptionally.

Akin to michael weston

22 hours ago, T-Dub said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2025.htm

254 yards to the Jets.. oof.

Otherwise consistently over 100+ allowed, aside from AZ and the opener.

Cleveland didn’t have Judkins in either game against us.