The myth of "foreign fighters"

[Guest bengalrick]

[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html"]click here[/url]

[i]posted September 23, 2005 at 10:30 a.m.

[b]The 'myth' of Iraq's foreign fighters[/b]

Report by US think tank says only '4 to 10' percent of insurgents are foreigners.

By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don't come from Saudi Arabia, according to a [url="http://www.csis.org/press/wf_2005_0919.pdf"]new report[/url] from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS). According to a piece in The Guardian, this means the US and Iraq "[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1576666,00.html"]feed the myth[/url]" that foreign fighters are the backbone of the insurgency. [b]While the foreign fighters may stoke the insurgency flames, they make up only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents. [/b] (this surprised me, but i am willing to listen further, unlike others that work solely off an agenda)

[b]The CSIS study also disputes media reports that Saudis are the largest group of foreign fighters. CSIS says "Algerians are the largest group (20 percent), followed by Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent), Egyptians (13 percent), Saudis (12 percent) and those from other states (5 percent)." CSIS gathered the information for its study from intelligence sources in the Gulf region. [/b]

The CSIS report says: "The vast majority of Saudi militants who have entered Iraq were not terrorist sympathizers before the war; and were radicalized almost exclusively by the coalition invasion."

The average age of the Saudis was 17-25 and they were generally middle-class with jobs, though they usually had connections with the most prominent conservative tribes. [b]"Most of the Saudi militants were motivated by revulsion at the idea of an Arab land being occupied by a non-Arab country. These feelings are intensified by the images of the occupation they see on television and the Internet ... the catalyst most often cited [in interrogations] is Abu Ghraib, though images from Guantánamo Bay also feed into the pathology."[/b]

[b]The report also gives notes that the Saudi government for spending nearly $1.2 billion over the past two years, and deploying 35,000 troops, in an effort to secure its border with Iraq. The major problem remains the border with Syria, which lacks the resources of the Saudis to create a similar barrier on its border.[/b]

[b]The Associated Press reports that CSIS believes most of the insurgents are not "Saddam Hussein loyalists" but members of [url="http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/09/21/a2.int.warfor.0921.p1.php?section=nation_world"]Sunni Arab Iraqi Tribes[/url]. They do not want to see Mr. Hussein return to power, but they are "wary of a Shiite-led government." [/b]

The Los Angeles Times reports that a greater concern is that 'skills' foreign fighters are learning in Iraq are being exported [url="http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-eurojihad23sep23,0,721231.story?coll=ny-leadworldnews-headlines"]to their home countries[/url]. This is a particular concern for Europe, since early this year US intelligence reported that "Abu Musab Zarqawi, whose network is believed to extend far beyond Iraq, had dispatched teams of battle-hardened operatives to European capitals."

Iraq has become a superheated, real-world academy for lessons about weapons, urban combat and terrorist trade craft, said Thomas Sanderson of [CSIS].
Extremists in Iraq are "exposed to international networks from around the world," said Sanderson, who has been briefed by German security agencies. "They are returning with bomb-making skills, perhaps stolen explosives, vastly increased knowledge. If they are succeeding in a hostile environment, avoiding ... US Special Forces, then to go back to Europe, my God, it's kid's play."

Meanwhile, The Boston Globe reports that President Bush, in a speech Thursday that was "clearly designed to dampen the potential impact of the antiwar rally" this weekend in Washington, said his top military commanders in Iraq have told him that they are [url="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/09/23/bush_asserts_troops_must_stay_in_iraq/"]making progress[/url] against the insurgents and "in establishing a politically viable state."

Newly trained Iraqi forces are taking the lead in many security operations, the president said, including a recent offensive in the insurgent stronghold of Tal Afar along the Syrian border – a key transit point for foreign fighters and supplies.
"Iraqi forces are showing the vital difference they can make," Bush said. '"They are now in control of more parts of Iraq than at any time in the past two years. Significant areas of Baghdad and Mosul, once violent and volatile, are now more stable because Iraqi forces are helping to keep the peace."

The president's speech, however, was followed by comments made Thursday by Saudi Arabia's foreign minister. Prince Saud al-Faisal said the US [url="http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1151543&page=1"]ignored warnings[/url] the Saudi government gave it about occupying Iraq. Prince Faisal also said he fears US policies in Iraq will lead to the country breaking up into Kurdish, Sunni, and Shiite parts. He also said that Saudi Arabia is not ready to send an ambassador to Baghdad, because he would become a target for the insurgents. "I doubt he would last a day," Faisal said.

Finally, The Guardian reports that "ambitions for Iraq are being drastically scaled down in private" by British and US officials. The main goal has now become [url="http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1575400,00.html"]avoiding the image of failure[/url]. The paper quotes sources in the British Foreign Office as saying that hopes to turn Iraq into a model of democracy for the Middle East had been put aside. "We will settle for leaving behind an Iraqi democracy that is creaking along," the source said. [/i]


i figured the numbers were higher than 10 percent on the high end, but both sides need to understand exactly WHO we're fighting... sunni arabs that hate saddam, but also are afraid of our intentions... we obviously have to TRAIN iraqis, rather than fight them... we also need to figure out a way to get the sunnis on board...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[i][b]exactly it is an insurgency ..... not an invasion of foriegn jihadists like Bush wants you to believe

This fight them there so we don't have to fight them here is bullshit.... they are fighting us there, because we are there[/b][/i]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Sep 26 2005, 03:27 PM'][i][b]exactly it is an insurgency ..... not an invasion of foriegn jihadists like Bush wants you to believe

This fight them there so we don't have to fight them here is bullshit.... they are fighting us there, because we are there[/b][/i]
[right][post="157949"][/post][/right][/quote]

this has to be he first time that bj has believed an article from "The Christian Science Monitor"

reguardless, no question that this is a mixture and i am surprised of the low number of "insurgents"... i have stated many times that us being there is obviously like the super bowl for "jihadists" and recruiting, but i still truely believe that in the future, we will be proud of iraq and have a VITAL friend in the heart of teh middle east... and that is a good thing...

less US and coalition forces in iraq, the better, BUT if we leave before we're done, then a good thing can easily be a bad thing... i truely think that the only thing holding everything together in iraq, is democracy.... this article tells me that the sunnis want freedom, but are wary of our presence there, nor to be ruled by the shiite's exclusively... we need to get them on board, and the training up to snub, and then we can draw forces back down... from all reports i am reading now, we don't plan to have a permanent military base in iraq, so that is a good thing...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[img]http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050926/hulme.gif[/img]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[img]http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/apr03/kids041403.jpg[/img]
[i]"Thanks for fighting them here on my street" [/i]

[Guest oldschooler]

The main report that article is based on says...

"There are strong indications that the largest component of
the insurgency is composed of Iraqis."
[b]However, Cordesman and Obaid stated that ..."no one knows
the number of active and part time insurgents, paid agents, and
sympathizers."[/b]

[url="http://www.csis.org/press/wf_2005_0919.pdf"]http://www.csis.org/press/wf_2005_0919.pdf[/url]





Lemme see...it basically says that no one knows the numbers.
So let`s just estimate them and guess how much
of a percent are foreign fighters ? :roll:


Anyway Iraqi had a population of 24,683,313 (July 2003).
That report says that as little as 4% (1200) and as much as
10% (3000) are foreign fighters. That would mean at the
most there are 28,880 Iraqis in the insurgency...that would
leave 24,654,513 that aren`t....

[Guest bengalrick]

bj - "i just agreed w/ a christian publication!?!?!... i'll just post some funny pics and hopefully everyone will not notice the hypocracy, blindness, and bias that i'm showing"







i was just waiting for you to actually reply, but i realize yiou weren't going to, so i will call you out...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]bj - "i just agreed w/ a christian publication!?!?!...[/quote]

[i][b]I have posted articles from the CSmonitor before

Just as I have posted from the Washington Times, and they are owned by that weird cult leader Sun Yung Moon,

I think however that you are mistaking Christian Science for something that resembles Christianity ..... Here is an excerpt that I compiled myself [/b][/i]


[quote]Christian Science Church
Founded, in 1875 in Massachusetts by Mary Baker Eddy.  It is comprised of 1 million members, (although as you will learn all it'll take is a large outbreak of tonsillitis to cut that number down to the low five digits.) with 3,000 churches, in 56 countries. 

It is influential, with the prestigious daily newspaper, "Christian Science Monitor"; also with the magazines Christian Science Sentinel, and Christian Science Journal.

The Holy Scriptures are the books of Mrs. Eddy, "Science and Health, with Key to the Scriptures", "Miscellaneous Writings", and "Manual of the Mother Church". Oh yeah and the Bible.  The services look Christian, because the Bible is read, followed by the interpretation of each passage by Mrs. Eddy's writings.                                                                                                         

“God", according to them is not the Christian God, but a "Hindu one": An impersonal principle of life, truth, love, intelligence, and spirit.                                                                                                             

In fact, Science and Health was a barely readable conglomeration of half-assed Bible study and flagrantly idiotic medical advice. The overall thrust of Science and Health through its many revisions is the notion that sickness is sent by God to punish evil, that we only die if God wills it and that seeking traditional medical assistance is not only useless but sinfully wrong.                                                           

They preach that the Material world does not exist, spirit is the only reality.  To them the physical world and human body are illusions.  The body can not be ill, suffer pain, or die, because matter is an illusion.                                                                                                           
To them there is no evil, no devil, no sin, no poverty, and no old age.  A person is reincarnated until he learns these truths and becomes "perfect".                                                                                           

Members are told to reject doctors, physicians, chiropractics, drugs, vitamins, nutrition, as well as immunizations.                                                                                                 

There are no clergy, no congregations... only lecture halls to read, and practice Hindu healing by "practitioners", in "services", under the cover of the Bible.  "Mrs. Eddy", claimed to be the woman of Rev.12, making her “infallible”. [/quote]



[i][b]Also if I said that the articles was bullshit because it came from the CSmonitor you would have criticized that as well.... Just because they believe weird stupid shit most of the time, doesn't mean that they can't report facts like the Sky is Blue, or we are fucked in Iraq. [/b][/i]