Societies worse off when they have God

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="red"][b]What I have been saying all along [/b][/color]

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html[/url]

[quote][img]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/church-religion.gif[/img]
[u]Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
September 27, 2005
The London Times[/u]


RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”[/quote]

[Guest bengalrick]

if there wasn't religion from day 1, yes... this world may have been better off w/out any form of religion... in the society that we live in, you'd be nuts to think that the world would be better w/out the majority of people believing a higher and more powerful being...

bj, you obviously misunderstand the word "God"... God to me means Jesus Christ and/or a higher spirit that lives w/in me.... your "God" could be money, sex, drugs, possessions, etc.... i won't ask you what your God is, but if you think about it for a minute, you have one... you just don't pray to it, and don't think about it that way.... but everyone has a "God"... i'm glad mine is not a possession, but an idea...

[Jamie_B]

Interestingly enough Socrates believed in the Gods of the city, yet was accused otherwise and put to death because of it.

(Wonders is Ruth Gledhill has any distant relation to the sophists. )

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

Silly Bengalsrick, It is obvious who BJ's God is .......


[img]http://bengals.enquirer.com/2004/05/04/lewis_175.jpg[/img]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' date='Sep 27 2005, 11:35 AM']Silly Bengalsrick, It is obvious who BJ's God is .......
[img]http://bengals.enquirer.com/2004/05/04/lewis_175.jpg[/img]
[right][post="158481"][/post][/right][/quote]

that would make me feel better about bj

i'm afraid its more like this guy: [img]http://files.db3nf.com/pictures/authors/marx.jpg[/img]

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Sep 27 2005, 10:01 AM']Interestingly enough Socrates believed in the Gods of the city, yet was accused otherwise and put to death because of it.

(Wonders is Ruth Gledhill has any distant relation to the sophists.  )
[right][post="158425"][/post][/right][/quote]

The charges against Socrates were of the type often used against political enemies in ancient Athens; in other words, politically motivated. Something along the lines of how sex and corporate scandals are used nowadays, etc... There may be a kernel of truth to such charges, but that isn't why they were brought. That was so then and is so now.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 27 2005, 02:38 PM']The charges against Socrates were of the type often used against political enemies in ancient Athens; in other words, politically motivated. Something along the lines of how sex and corporate scandals are used nowadays, etc... There may be a kernel of truth to such charges, but that isn't why they were brought. That was so then and is so now.
[right][post="158590"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


No I realize that, my only point was he did believe in the Gods of the city.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]bj, you obviously misunderstand the word "God"... God to me means Jesus Christ and/or a higher spirit that lives w/in me.... your "God" could be money, sex, drugs, possessions, etc.... i won't ask you what your God is, but if you think about it for a minute, you have one... you just don't pray to it, and don't think about it that way.... but everyone has a "God"... i'm glad mine is not a possession, but an idea...[/quote]


[i][b]I am not misunderstanding the term at all..... Your argument is a very weak one, to juxtaposition a vice (drinking) or a hobbie (sex) or a principle that you believe in (honesty) with a God is ludacris. The context of "God" to christians and most other religions carries several important differences....

1. Jesus as God means that ALL must obey him or burn in hell, loving money makes no judgement on what everyone else does
2. Jesus as God means that if you a right, all the others are wrong, Jesus and Muhammad can't both be right..... One can love Sex and that does not at all devalidate anyone elses love or vice
3. Jesus as God carries a judgemental factor for most patrons of it, loving drugs doesn't carry with it the belief that those who don't do drugs are bad people, or immoral
etc etc etc

This is the faulty analogy that many Christians use to show that we all have "Gods",,, it is a semantic paper tiger that is bullshit. Hobbies or interests, or even principles that you abide by are not Gods. Yes I believe in certain principles that are centered around halting what I believe to be the economic subjugation of others. It is an ethos, just like any other principle, but I don't imply that I know that the principle is divine, god given, holy, moral, or even right in the grand scheme of it all. [/b][/i]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Sep 27 2005, 02:48 PM'][i][b]I am not misunderstanding the term at all..... Your argument is a very weak one, to juxtaposition a vice (drinking) or a hobbie (sex) or a principle that you believe in (honesty) with a God is ludacris.  The context of "God" to christians and most other religions carries several important differences....

1.  Jesus as God means that ALL must obey him or burn in hell, loving money makes no judgement on what everyone else does[/quote][/i][/b]

bullshit... as i said, you have no idea what your talking about here... for one,your bunching all christians into one big heaping pile of shit (in your eyes)... i don't obey every law that he has set forward... i dont' think i'm going to hell... having money as your God, means you look up to it and will do anything to get it... i look up to God as a spirit inside of me... loving money can and does lead to mass injustice, as you like to point out on a consistant basis..

[quote][i][b]2.  Jesus as God means that if you a right, all the others are wrong, Jesus and Muhammad can't both be right..... One can love Sex and that does not at all devalidate anyone elses love or vice[/quote][/b][/i]

if you have read any of my other threads on this topic, you would know that one of my main objections to going to church and reading th bible so literally, is this right here... i can't justify why a bad christian would go to heaven, yet a good jew, muslim, etc wouldn't, just b/c they don't believe in jesus christ...

[quote][i][b]3. Jesus as God carries a judgemental factor for most patrons of it, loving drugs doesn't carry with it the belief that those who don't do drugs are bad people, or immoral
etc etc etc[/quote][/b][/i]

i heard a great saying in my short time on this earth that explains the drug issue your saying... "do the drug, don't let the drug do you"... if you do "let the drug do you" then that drug is your "God"...

[quote][b][i]This is the faulty analogy that many Christians use to show that we all have "Gods",,, it is a semantic paper tiger that is bullshit.  Hobbies or interests, or even principles that you abide by are not Gods.  Yes I believe in certain principles that are centered around halting what I believe to be the economic subjugation of others.  It is an ethos, just like any other principle, but I don't imply that I know that the principle is divine, god given, holy, moral, or even right in the grand scheme of it all.  [/b][/i]
[right][post="158636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

i don't expect you to understand or respect my views b/c you never do, but it would help you in life to try to understand others views, instead of understanding what you want to believe about them... again, if you read any of my other comments in the "what is the true religion" thread, you would find out that i also have questions and what i have is faith, not absolute truth... idon't know the truth and believe that anyone that they know for a fact there is a higher being, or know for a fact there isn't a higher being, is either nieve, blinded, or crazy... anyone that talks to God and then God talks back is fucking crazy... anyone that believes they know for a fact there is no God and isn't willing to listen to possiblities that there is, is either nieve or blinded... i would go w/ blinded in your case...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[i][b]Bengalrick.... it sounds like you are one of the People who are better than the awful religion for which they identiy themself with..... if you don't believe in all the laws, or the fact that only Christians go to Heaven.... then just drop the bullshit Jesus story as the fraud that it is, and enlighten yourself elsewhere.....

It seems like you have the beginings of skepticism, but because you have been conditioned (as we all have been) you don't fully want to call the Jesus story and the Bible what it is = Crap. [/b][/i]

[The Scales]

[b]“Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world." [/b]


Thats the problem.




Not religion.

[Beaker]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 27 2005, 08:03 PM']anyone that talks to God and then God talks back is fucking crazy[right][post="158643"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I consider "God" to be my conciousness. I believe that I "talk to God" alot. For me, that "sixth sense" is God. If, "out of the blue" I decide to take another route to work and coincidentally miss a huge accident...that "out of the blue" is God. If I am having trouble deciding on something to do about my daughter and the "answer" suddenly pops into my head from out of nowhere..that was God talking to me. I dont have conversations with a booming disembodied voice...but I believe I get messages from the spiritual side all the time. I believe we all do. I also believe that we have simply forgotten how to hear them most of the time. Does that mean Im fucking crazy?

[The Scales]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Sep 28 2005, 12:06 AM']I consider "God" to be my conciousness. I believe that I "talk to God" alot. For me, that "sixth sense" is God. If, "out of the blue" I decide to take another route to work and coincidentally miss a huge accident...that "out of the blue" is God. If I am having trouble deciding on something to do about my daughter and the "answer" suddenly pops into my head from out of nowhere..that was God talking to me. I dont have conversations with a booming disembodied voice...[b]ME EITHER!![/b]but I believe I get messages from the spiritual side all the time.[b]YES![/b] I believe we all do. I also believe that we have simply forgotten how to hear them most of the time.[b] PREACH ON!![/b] Does that mean Im fucking crazy?[b]HELL NO!!![/b]
[right][post="158859"][/post][/right][/quote]


Just tuned in.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Sep 27 2005, 11:06 PM']I dont have conversations with a booming disembodied voice...
[right][post="158859"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
A few years ago, I kept hearing this voice saying, "Fight the Power."

Turns out it was my neighbor playing a Public Enemy album.

[mikeman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Sep 27 2005, 02:48 PM'][i][b]I am not misunderstanding the term at all..... Your argument is a very weak one, to juxtaposition a vice (drinking) or a hobbie (sex) or a principle that you believe in (honesty) with a God is ludacris.  The context of "God" to christians and most other religions carries several important differences....

1.  Jesus as God means that ALL must obey him or burn in hell, loving money makes no judgement on what everyone else does
2.  Jesus as God means that if you a right, all the others are wrong, Jesus and Muhammad can't both be right..... One can love Sex and that does not at all devalidate anyone elses love or vice
3. Jesus as God carries a judgemental factor for most patrons of it, loving drugs doesn't carry with it the belief that those who don't do drugs are bad people, or immoral
etc etc etc

This is the faulty analogy that many Christians use to show that we all have "Gods",,, it is a semantic paper tiger that is bullshit.  Hobbies or interests, or even principles that you abide by are not Gods.  Yes I believe in certain principles that are centered around halting what I believe to be the economic subjugation of others.  It is an ethos, just like any other principle, but I don't imply that I know that the principle is divine, god given, holy, moral, or even right in the grand scheme of it all.  [/b][/i]
[right][post="158636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Burn baby burn! How do you like yourself? Rare, medium, or well done?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='mikeman' date='Sep 28 2005, 09:20 AM']Burn baby burn!  How do you like yourself?  Rare, medium, or well done?
[right][post="158991"][/post][/right][/quote]


Wow, that is completly uncalled for.

[Homer_Rice]

Hell is paved with priests' skulls. --John Chrysostom

Hell is empty and all the devils are here. --William Shakespeare

[Beaker]

[quote name='mikeman' date='Sep 28 2005, 01:20 PM']Burn baby burn!  How do you like yourself?  Rare, medium, or well done?
[right][post="158991"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

How do you like yourself...completely brainwashed?

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Beaker' date='Sep 27 2005, 11:06 PM']I consider "God" to be my conciousness. I believe that I "talk to God" alot. For me, that "sixth sense" is God. If, "out of the blue" I decide to take another route to work and coincidentally miss a huge accident...that "out of the blue" is God. If I am having trouble deciding on something to do about my daughter and the "answer" suddenly pops into my head from out of nowhere..that was God talking to me. I dont have conversations with a booming disembodied voice...but I believe I get messages from the spiritual side all the time. I believe we all do. I also believe that we have simply forgotten how to hear them most of the time. Does that mean Im fucking crazy?
[right][post="158859"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

no... that was you coming up (imo) w/ the answer, due to God's help, per say...

the people that worry me are the people that say "i did this b/c God told me to" or shit like that... if the booming voice is in your head or even worse, in real life, then you are crazy... i also pray for answers and they just come to me... but i don't feel that is the same as i was saying...

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 28 2005, 09:15 AM']Hell is paved with priests' skulls. --John Chrysostom

Hell is empty and all the devils are here. --William Shakespeare
[right][post="159010"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

i believe we're in hell right now, but hell starts if your "stuck" here for eternity, in the afterlife... heaven imo, is dying and being in peace...

i don't think there are the gates of heaven, or the pits of hell... that is my take though...

[The Scales]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Sep 28 2005, 09:51 AM']Wow, that is completly uncalled for.
[right][post="159004"][/post][/right][/quote]


Exactly, not a very good "christian"......

[The Scales]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 28 2005, 11:00 AM']i believe we're in hell right now, but hell starts if your "stuck" here for eternity, in the afterlife... heaven imo, is dying and being in peace...

i don't think there are the gates of heaven, or the pits of hell... that is my take though...
[right][post="159022"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Or check this out, Yeah hell is here, and if you never open your eyes and truly see or don't get the time to see, you get a return ticket.

Or Possibly God Likes you so much he sends your energy back, to spread the word again.

[Lawman]

[quote]believe we're in hell right now, but hell starts if your "stuck" here for eternity, in the afterlife...[/quote]

Bengalrick,
I felt this way in my early twenties; not sure when I stopped, probably after I found someone to love and them to love me (my wife/sons). But, IMO, we are not in Hell right now, we are just not in Heaven.

[quote]heaven imo, is dying and being in peace...[/quote]

IMO, you are on track with being in peace, but if you believe in Jesus ' YOU WILL NOT PARRISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

Christ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection was symbolic, representing his conquest of death.

IMO, Heaven is something that can not be described in words. I see it more on the lines of euphoric eutopia, believing/hoping to see and be with the loved ones of our lifetime.

Now, the means for getting their is muddled and up for debate yet by my beliefs, the means are very simplistic; believing in Jesus Christ as the Saviour and more importantly his message "the Word" (Confession: I fall very short in my convictions to this belief and not allowing Christ to take over my life. Why? PRIDE ). It must be real hard for Leo's .

Before the time-warp , I was having a deep discussion with bengal_dan/bengalbacker (sorry guys, CRAFT disease) on this subject. To summarize: I believe we will be judged by God on our actions with Jesus interceding as a mediator "no man can see the father, but only through me". This is my belief, no-one else has to believe it and I will not force it on anyone. To each his own.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lawman' date='Sep 28 2005, 02:36 PM']Bengalrick,
I felt this way in my early twenties; not sure when I stopped, probably after I found someone to love and them to love me (my wife/sons). But, IMO, we are not in Hell right now, we are just not in Heaven.
IMO, you are on track with being in peace, but if you believe in Jesus ' YOU WILL NOT PARRISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

Christ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection was symbolic, representing his conquest of death.

[b]IMO, Heaven is something that can not be described in words. I see it more on the lines of euphoric eutopia, believing/hoping to see and be with the loved ones of our lifetime.[/b]
Now, the means for getting their is muddled and up for debate yet by my beliefs, the means are very simplistic; believing in Jesus Christ as the Saviour and more importantly his message "the Word" (Confession: I fall very short in my convictions to this belief and not allowing Christ to take over my life. Why? PRIDE ).  It must be real hard for Leo's  .   

Before the time-warp , I was having a deep discussion with bengal_dan. on this subject. To summarize: I believe we will be judged by God on our actions with Jesus interceding as a mediator "no man can see the father, but only through me".  This is my belief, no-one else has to believe it and I will not force it on anyone. To each his own.
[right][post="159125"][/post][/right][/quote]


I see it this way as well with the addition of awaking to the complete knowledge of the universe and the understanding of things we couldn't even fathom before.

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Sep 28 2005, 02:43 PM']I see it this way as well with the addition of awaking to the complete knowledge of the universe and the understanding of things we couldn't even fathom before.
[right][post="159130"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Amen